Are you nice and comfy in your Christian life?

[OneLight]

14 minutes ago, Alive said:

Yup--I have considered these things. I have really looked and I get it. I do not see a wall. I see a difference of understanding and I am not being the least critical.

I am pretty sure you know this and I suspect you have looked at my discussion with an equal amount of consideration.

The only difference I see between what you believe and what I believe is that a man can harden his heart hard enough for him to turn from God or for God to let him go.  You believe that God will convict them to the point where they cannot refuse repentance.  The classic Calvinist/Arminian debate. 

[Alive]

Just now, OneLight said:

The only difference I see between what you believe and what I believe is that a man can harden his heart hard enough for him to turn from God or for God to let him go.  You believe that God will convict them to the point where they cannot refuse repentance.  The classic Calvinist/Arminian debate. 

The following is a small piece of how I believe and why...

The Gospel is designed by God to be so simple that a child can understand it.

Humans are a mess and have no way of reaching the righteous requirement of God. That is number one. Number two is that humans are under a penalty of death for being such a mess. Each human was born into this set of realities.

We can't fix it, so God decided (because He loves us) to take on the responsibility of fixing this for us.

This is really good news. Why? Because there was no way with all of humanities talents and capabilities for him to get from death and sin to life and righteousness.

God chose to accomplish this through the Cross, the Resurrection and the Ascension. God Himself, came to earth to be born through a woman's womb as a member of that messed up race--to be a substitute.

He took your place and took upon Himself all of that which makes you unable to stand before a Righteous God and to do away with it and to 'place' you before Him, as a son--a member of His family--without spot or blemish and more. Not only did He remove the sin, but He gifted you with 'Righteousness'. The very Righteousness of Christ.

How in this scenario, did any one of you earn this? Did you behave well and God rewarded you?

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ"--Paul talks in a ton of places about being 'In Christ'.

The moment you believed, which is a Gift, the Father stuck you 'into' Christ. In that moment a miracle occurred. The 'foolishness' of the Cross. Which becomes a simple history lesson.

You died in Christ, you rose with a New Life in Christ and you ascended in Christ and now your Life is hidden WITH Christ in God. These things happened. Its history. Done.

Think about that for a moment and let it sink in.

This was all God. You had no power to get this done. It was a supernatural thing. Just as Isaac was born in a supernatural manner, for Sarah was past the age of child bearing. God had to intervene. Isaac, the son of promise was born because God took responsibility for His promise to Abraham. All that was required was faith.

Now a logic problem...if God had to intervene to get you saved and include you in Christ because you had no power to accomplish these things. Does it make any sense that He would then require you to do something to maintain that status? Ok--I saved you, now you have to keep yourself saved. I made you a son, you must keep yourself a son. I yanked you out of the first Adam and made you a member of the Second Adam and gave you eternal Life and hid you in heaven with me.

Now--if you mess up--I kill my own eternal Life--my own son and yank you back out of the Second Adam and stick you back into the First race of men.

If you repent--I am gonna die on the Cross and do it all over again.

No---God solved the problems once and for all and provided the free gift of eternal Life 'in Christ'.

You are a New Creature--born supernaturally. Only God does such things. You are like Isaac. The result of a Promise.

Believe and Live. Believe and be transported from one place to another. From the first Adam to the Second Adam.

God did not go to all of this trouble to then leave your ultimate fate to your own weak efforts.

Once saved, you are saved for all of the ages of ages to come...a son of God. A member of His Glorious Family.

Praise God for His wisdom..for His marvelous Plan.

We have talked about this before---everything must square up to the 'historical' reality of the Cross. Other verses that appear to contradict this, must hold a different meaning.

Can you show me how the Cross can be reversed: the death, the resurrection and the ascension? Again--these are historical realities.

 

[Don19]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

You really should do your research before making such statements.

Exodus 32:14  (NASB)

14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Jeremiah 26:19 (NASB)

19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.”

Amos 7:3

The Lord changed His mind about this.
“It shall not be,” said the Lord.

Amos 7:6

The Lord changed His mind about this.
“This too shall not be,” said the Lord God.

Jonah 3:9-10

Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.  When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jeremiah 18:8

if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.

Jeremiah 26:3

Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Jeremiah 26:13

Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 42:10

If you will indeed stay in this land, then I will build you up and not tear you down, and I will plant you and not uproot you; for I will relent concerning the calamity that I have inflicted on you.

2 Samuel 24:16

When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Jeremiah 18:10

if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

Ezekiel 7:22

I will also turn My face from them, and they will profane My secret place; then robbers will enter and profane it.

 

I noticed you only referenced OT texts. God's patience and forbearance from bringing well-deserved wrath in the Old Testament (a CONDITIONAL covenant) is a type and shadow of His unlimited and eternal patience and forbearance in the New and Everlasting Covenant, which is wholly promissory (Gal 3:18). Because Christ ever lives to make intercession for His people, it is impossible for any of His elect to perish. If God "repented" as it were from the judgment that was well-deserved in the conditional covenant, how much more will He do so in the unconditional covenant...

Edited June 15, 2020 by Don19

[David1701]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

When you read about the words Jesus spoke to the church in Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22), what do you think He meant when he spoke about being rich, wealthy, and in need of nothing?

“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.  So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.  Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.  Therefore be zealous and repent.  Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

The words "rich", "wealthy" and "in need of nothing" need to be explored as on the surface one would thing it was speaking about worldly goods and wealth they possessed, so they are not in want for anything.  But, is there a different meaning we need to be concerned with?  Lets look a little deeper at the meanings of these words.

rich G4145 πλούσιος plousios

1. wealthy, abounding in material resources
2. metaph. abounding, abundantly supplied
   1. abounding (rich) in Christian virtues and eternal possessions

Notice when speaking metaphorically, we can see it includes Christian virtues and eternal possessions, not worldly possessions.

wealthy (KJ says increased with goods) G4147 πλουτέω plouteō

1. to be rich, to have abundance
   1. of outward possessions
2. metaph. to be richly supplied
   1. is affluent in resources so that he can give blessings of salvation to all

Again, notice the metaphorical definition, being richly supplied =in resources so that they can give blessings of salvation to all.

in need of nothing G3762 οὐδείς oudeis

1. no one, nothing

This is the simplest of all as it literately means no one, no man, no person.

Jesus, speaking metaphorically to the church, opens up a whole different view of what He is speaking of by doing so.  When you apply the correct meanings we can see why the church is considered lukewarm and about to be vomited out of His mouth.  By His words we can see how dangerous it is to think we have all we need; all the virtue and rewards, being able to lead anyone to salvation, in other words, thinking we need nothing else in life, we have all the correct understanding and faith.  I see His words of a strong encouragement to press in, continue to study and learn, continue to grow in Him, to become more like Jesus in all humility.  There is nothing I can think of that would be worse than to be vomited out of Jesus, no longer being part of Him due to pride and haughtiness.

Umm ... Laodicea was, literally, a rich city, famous for its ointments.  The reference to lukewarmness was something they knew about well, because their water supply had to come from quite far away and was, literally, lukewarm (and unpleasant) by the time it reached them.  They had become complacent, as an assembly, due to being materially well off, so the Lord gave them a warning in terms that they would understand.

As far as overcoming is concerned, everyone who has been born of God does overcome; but not everyone who claims to be a Christian has been born again.

1 John 5:3,4 (ESV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

The following is a small piece of how I believe and why...

The Gospel is designed by God to be so simple that a child can understand it.

Humans are a mess and have no way of reaching the righteous requirement of God. That is number one. Number two is that humans are under a penalty of death for being such a mess. Each human was born into this set of realities.

We can't fix it, so God decided (because He loves us) to take on the responsibility of fixing this for us.

This is really good news. Why? Because there was no way with all of humanities talents and capabilities for him to get from death and sin to life and righteousness.

God chose to accomplish this through the Cross, the Resurrection and the Ascension. God Himself, came to earth to be born through a woman's womb as a member of that messed up race--to be a substitute.

He took your place and took upon Himself all of that which makes you unable to stand before a Righteous God and to do away with it and to 'place' you before Him, as a son--a member of His family--without spot or blemish and more. Not only did He remove the sin, but He gifted you with 'Righteousness'. The very Righteousness of Christ.

How in this scenario, did any one of you earn this? Did you behave well and God rewarded you?

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ"--Paul talks in a ton of places about being 'In Christ'.

The moment you believed, which is a Gift, the Father stuck you 'into' Christ. In that moment a miracle occurred. The 'foolishness' of the Cross. Which becomes a simple history lesson.

You died in Christ, you rose with a New Life in Christ and you ascended in Christ and now your Life is hidden WITH Christ in God. These things happened. Its history. Done.

Think about that for a moment and let it sink in.

This was all God. You had no power to get this done. It was a supernatural thing. Just as Isaac was born in a supernatural manner, for Sarah was past the age of child bearing. God had to intervene. Isaac, the son of promise was born because God took responsibility for His promise to Abraham. All that was required was faith.

Now a logic problem...if God had to intervene to get you saved and include you in Christ because you had no power to accomplish these things. Does it make any sense that He would then require you to do something to maintain that status? Ok--I saved you, now you have to keep yourself saved. I made you a son, you must keep yourself a son. I yanked you out of the first Adam and made you a member of the Second Adam and gave you eternal Life and hid you in heaven with me.

Now--if you mess up--I kill my own eternal Life--my own son and yank you back out of the Second Adam and stick you back into the First race of men.

If you repent--I am gonna die on the Cross and do it all over again.

No---God solved the problems once and for all and provided the free gift of eternal Life 'in Christ'.

You are a New Creature--born supernaturally. Only God does such things. You are like Isaac. The result of a Promise.

Believe and Live. Believe and be transported from one place to another. From the first Adam to the Second Adam.

God did not go to all of this trouble to then leave your ultimate fate to your own weak efforts.

Once saved, you are saved for all of the ages of ages to come...a son of God. A member of His Glorious Family.

Praise God for His wisdom..for His marvelous Plan.

We have talked about this before---everything must square up to the 'historical' reality of the Cross. Other verses that appear to contradict this, must hold a different meaning.

Can you show me how the Cross can be reversed: the death, the resurrection and the ascension? Again--these are historical realities.

Why would I want to try and prove what God did is worthless?  I never once said that nor have I ever hinted it in any way.  That is your mistake when it comes to understanding what I believe.  Yes, you are stating what you believe, and I agree with everything you said as God will never relinquish His responsibilities.

Tell me on thing, where did you once mention your responsibilities?  Did you become a robot or computer once you accepted Christ where your free will was taken from you?  You see, you remove yourself from the picture completely, which is your mistake.  What were the purposes of all the lessons Jesus taught, all the warnings found in the NT, all the warnings Jesus spoke to the 7 churches in Revelation if it could never happen to a believer?

Yes, we have talked about this before.  Yet, there is no contradiction with anything I have brought forth, except in your eyes as it does not square up with your theology.  Just because it does not agree with what you believe doesn't make it wrong.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Don19 said:

 

I noticed you only referenced OT texts. God's patience and forbearance from bringing well-deserved wrath in the Old Testament (a CONDITIONAL covenant) is a type and shadow of His unlimited and eternal patience and forbearance in the New and Everlasting Covenant, which is wholly promissory (Gal 3:18). Because Christ ever lives to make intercession for His people, it is impossible for any of His elect to perish. If God "repented" as it were from the judgment that was well-deserved in the conditional covenant, how much more will He do so in the unconditional covenant...

Did God change from the OT to the NT?  You said God never changed His mind and I pointed you to where He has.  Is that so hard to accept?

Before we go any further, let me ask you one thing.  Do you believe John 3:16 to be for all the world, every living person, or is it only for the elected God chose before time itself?

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Umm ... Laodicea was, literally, a rich city, famous for its ointments.  The reference to lukewarmness was something they knew about well, because their water supply had to come from quite far away and was, literally, lukewarm (and unpleasant) by the time it reached them.  They had become complacent, as an assembly, due to being materially well off, so the Lord gave them a warning in terms that they would understand.

As far as overcoming is concerned, everyone who has been born of God does overcome; but not everyone who claims to be a Christian has been born again.

1 John 5:3,4 (ESV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

First, thank you for addressing the topic of the thread.  I was starting to wonder if anyone would get around to answering the subject at hand.

Allow me to ask you this, how can someone who is not born again be in Christ?

[David1701]

34 minutes ago, OneLight said:

First, thank you for addressing the topic of the thread.  I was starting to wonder if anyone would get around to answering the subject at hand.

Allow me to ask you this, how can someone who is not born again be in Christ?

They can be "in Christ" by profession and by attendance (i.e. outwardly only).  These ones are dry branches, without the sap of the Holy Spirit in them; but they are amongst us and often have the outward form of godliness, without the power of a new life.

Born again Christians are "in Christ" not merely by profession and attendance, but by being living branches, through whom the sap of Holy Spirit flows, producing fruit in their lives.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, David1701 said:

They can be "in Christ" by profession and by attendance (i.e. outwardly only).  These ones are dry branches, without the sap of the Holy Spirit in them; but they are amongst us and often have the outward form of godliness, without the power of a new life.

Born again Christians are "in Christ" not merely by profession and attendance, but by being living branches, through whom the sap of Holy Spirit flows, producing fruit in their lives.

I John 15:1-11, we are told in verses 1 and 2: "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit."  The Father removes the branches that do not bear fruit, so they are not "in Christ".  Those whom Jesus vomited out were "in Him".  You have to be in someone in order to be vomited out of them.

[David1701]

12 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I John 15:1-11, we are told in verses 1 and 2: "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit."  The Father removes the branches that do not bear fruit, so they are not "in Christ".  Those whom Jesus vomited out were "in Him".  You have to be in someone in order to be vomited out of them.

They are no longer "in Christ" ... once they have been removed. Before that, they were in him by profession and attendance.  As I posted, they were dry branches that did not bear fruit, so they were not attached to the vine in a living way - they had no sap of the Holy Spirit in them, to cause them to bear fruit.

Have you never come across people like that, because I know I have?  They attend meetings and know the right language, they claim to be Christians, but something is just "off" about them and it can be hard to put your finger on it right away.  Then, later on, hidden things are brought to light and it turns out that they were never really saved at all.  The most obvious example I remember, from many years ago, was a middle-aged man who came to our fellowship, claiming to be a Christian and in need of emotional support.  We tried to help but some of us could not shake the feeling that something was very wrong.  Later, we found out that he had been going round many of the churches in our city, pretending to be a Christian and groping young women (he tried it at our fellowship as well).  We contacted the police and they already knew all about him.  We had given him a Bible and discovered it in a dustbin, covered in swastikas and other unsavoury things.  Needless to say, he was not born again.

Edited June 16, 2020 by David1701