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[AnonymousEcho]

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Edited October 13, 2020 by AnonymousEcho
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[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Echo, 

As I understand it, and I may be wrong, the scenario is this. 

New Jerusalem arrives and everyone is resurrected. Most are on the outside and the righteous are on the inside.  The righteous are raised with bodies, like we have now but better, and live in New Jerusalem in the 1000 years of the Messiah’s reign.  The righteous therefore effectively get the fullness of the days like the early fathers, instead of 100 years lifespan we today.  This is fulfilling His promises to His people perfectly and literally - as the world we live in now with these bodies have not inherited that promise yet. 

Now, as to how many days those people have, it may be down to the judgment that they have incurred from THIS life. As you will learn from the New Testament, all believers must give account for their deeds as well.  There is a price to pay for those who say they belong to the Lord but act contrary and Yahweh will not be mocked.  So it seems some will be saved from the day of wrath that is to come, but they will come under examination too.  

Anyway, it seems that some will not die at all. Some will reach the end of the 1000 year reign, when the final judgement of all is decided.  They will then be translated into a new form, a form likened to bright stars, and they will live forever with the Father and the Son on the New Earth and Heavens. 

I hooe I haven't made matters seem more confusing! 

Love & Shalom 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, AnonymousEcho said:

Hello guys!

Recently, I have felt the Holy Spirit lead me to read and study Revelation (which I have never done before). I started by reading the book of Revelation in full, and have been listening to the teachings by Skip Heitzig on the matter as well as doing my own research. I'm running into a problem of understanding that I hope you all would have some insight into. Id like to also say that although I am a saved Christian (I believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection and that we are saved by His blood sacrifice), I have never successfully read the whole Bible...so please excuse me if I'm a bit ignorant. 

In Revelation it talks about how if you believe in Jesus you won't suffer the second death (Revelation 2:11). I always thought that the "second death" was eternal separation from God (i.e. going to Hell). But I found a scripture in Isaiah 65 that made me question this. 

In Isaiah 65:17-25 (NKJV) it says this: (I'm adding bold and highlight to some parts to emphasize things)

¹⁷ “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
¹⁸ But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
¹⁹ I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

²⁰ “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
²¹ They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
²² They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
²³ They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

²⁴ “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
²⁵ The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.

Now then.... my understanding of the above passage is this: “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind"; God creates a new heaven and a new earth and THEN (after): "For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing" God makes the New Jerusalem. This is like in Revelation 21:1-2, where John says "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. ²Then I, ^[a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". SO.... the New heaven and earth are made and THEN there is a separate creation of New Jerusalem. Correct?

Herein lies my problem of understanding: I thought that once we die on this planet and go to be with God, that we will eventually end up in New Jerusalem and that there would be NO sin or DEATH in New Jerusalem. However, Isaiah 65:20 seems to contradict this. Isaiah 65:20 says (I THINK in reference to New Jerusalem) that, " “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed"; this confused me because this states that there WILL be death and SIN in New Jerusalem (as far as I'm understanding it).

So... am I understanding correctly that even in New Jerusalem there will be death and sin? Or am I completely off in left field here? 

Echo

Hi AnonymousEcho. So for the reasons you have given, Isaiah 65 cannot be talking about the final state of the believer after they receive their eternal reward in heaven. What is in view is the millennial reign of Christ, the 1000 years when Satan is bound, and the short testing period following his release when some on earth will be deceived, such as the 100 year old accursed sinner in Isaiah 65:20.  

 Rev 20:1-6  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  (2)  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;  (3)  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.  (4)  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  (5)  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  (6)  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

It seems Isaiah didn't have a revelation of the glorious theographical New Jerusalem, but rather spoke of the transformed geographical Jerusalem which exists on earth for a time prior to the full manifestation of the bride of Christ in Revelation 21:2.   

[Who me]

11 hours ago, AnonymousEcho said:

No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed

And your evidence that this literally applies to those in heaven is?

How do you understand O T prophetic writing?  How does O T culture affect how they write.

May I suggest talking with your pastor for advice and possible any books on revelation, Isaiah and O T culture.

It is a lot quicker than posting on forums.

[dhchristian]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:03 PM, AnonymousEcho said:

Recently, I have felt the Holy Spirit lead me to read and study Revelation (which I have never done before). I started by reading the book of Revelation in full, and have been listening to the teachings by Skip Heitzig on the matter as well as doing my own research. I'm running into a problem of understanding that I hope you all would have some insight into. Id like to also say that although I am a saved Christian (I believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection and that we are saved by His blood sacrifice), I have never successfully read the whole Bible...so please excuse me if I'm a bit ignorant. 

Echo,

There are scriptures in the OT that are quoted in the new testament as having fulfillments in the first advent. Take the time to study these in context as this will give you an idea as to How Prophecy, Particularly OT prophecy works. So For example Jesus reads from Isaiah 61 early in His ministry, But he stops at a certain point, this then has a latter fulfillment of the rest of the passage. Some Passages Jump from 1 advent to the Other back to a near fulfillment in the time of Israel, and once you get familiar with these sorts of Jumps you will begin to see prophecy more completely. Revelation is no different. The visions received by John do not follow a sequential order, But they Jump around.... Not to say it is not orderly. For me the best way I can describe revelation is as a Painting being painted by a master artist. First he paints the background, then the foreground, the characters, etc. filling in the details as the picture develops. Many have tried to comprehend it with their mind only to fall flat into contradiction.... The Holy Ghost must teach you as there are soooo many rabbit holes that men have made of the book. Pray for wisdom and understanding as you depart on your journey... He will teach you and show you. 

God bless. 

[wingnut-]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:03 PM, AnonymousEcho said:

So... am I understanding correctly that even in New Jerusalem there will be death and sin? Or am I completely off in left field here?

 

The passage in question from Isaiah is a reference to the Millennial kingdom is probably the response you will receive from most.  Following the millennial period there is one final battle that takes place which you can find in Revelation 20:7-10.  The issue you are having with this particular passage is in trying to view it as chronological, most prophetic books in the bible are not chronological at all, even within a single body of text like the chapter in question.

[john1]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:03 PM, AnonymousEcho said:

I am a saved Christian (I believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection and that we are saved by His blood sacrifice)

Titus chapter 1 verse 16

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

No one is always right in what they say about Christianity, I'm not, no one is.

 

James chapter 3

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. ² We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

 

Study the bible I've read or listened to it over 200 times I  may have hit 3 I don't know.

Romans chapter 1 verse 28

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

[JohnD]

The use of allegorical language tends to throw people off when they take points extremely literally.

I realize there is also the tendency not to take the scriptures literally enough and that we end up spiritualizing

everything to the point that anything could mean... just about anything... 

This is one of the many reasons why we must:

Proverbs 3:5–6 (AV)
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I cannot over emphasize the Keys to the Kingdom:

1. The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, the Holy Spirit alone interprets the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21)

2. Test even the Holy Spirit to be certain it is HE because WE are not good judges of anyone or anything (1 John 4:1 / 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

4. We do so by the scriptures (Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Proverbs 25:2, Deuteronomy 29:29, Isaiah 28:9-13, Psalm 119)

For...

Proverbs 14:12 (AV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (AV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, notice how the Apostle contrasts the two covenants with examples of the conditions on Earth:

Galatians 4:21–31 (AV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

No longer will a child die in the sense that when he or she dies in this life they will have eternity in Christ (which indicates there is no such teaching as all children go to heaven in death or the analogy would not make any sense). And in unbelief if a child lived to be a hundred or a thousand (or a billion) they would not have life...

1 John 5:12 (AV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If memory serves, this form of contrast is called rabbinic allegory.  

 

[JohnD]

Oh, my personal belief (which means I don't expect anyone else to believe it, but I throw it out there for consideration with scriptural verification) because it makes sense to me...

Much about the New / Heavenly Jerusalem is the New Covenant Church itself (which has been in effect since the moment our Lord gave up the Ghost on the cross). Built on the foundation of the Apostles (who as the Apostle Paul wrote are all on the foundation of Christ 1 Corinthians 3:11 or put another way the chief cornerstone which is the same thing). 

So this assumption that the New Jerusalem is in heaven only makes the existence of death / dying seem to be a contradiction when it's not.

Revelation 21:22 (AV)
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Revelation 22 (AV)
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.