WilliamL Posted June 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,150 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 On 6/27/2020 at 3:55 PM, Episcopius said: Trump is the Restrainer - I have heard everything now. More specifically, the American Presidency, which Trump now occupies, while the world is undergoing its greatest economic and civil crises in a long time. Could be a President to come; could be another world leader that arises, say, one who represents the 7th head of Rev. 19's Beast. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,150 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) On 6/25/2020 at 1:59 PM, wingnut- said: The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil. What is irrelevant is the attempt to tie historical empires into this conversation that no one claimed was restraining evil. I certainly made no mention of it, so I'm not going to chase a red herring you created on your own that has no application. And again you misquote me and the passage. What it being restrained, as both the passage and I say, is LAWLESSNESS. Show me one place where I've said that evil is the thing being restrained, and you got me. Otherwise, get your facts straight. On 6/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, WilliamL said: On 6/25/2020 at 1:59 PM, wingnut- said: The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil. You are misquoting the passage and inserting your own meaning into it. The word is "lawlessness" (2 Thes. 2:7). And that is precisely what governments are formed to do -- restrain lawlessness Edited June 29, 2020 by WilliamL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy D. Mouse Posted June 29, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 108 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 29, 2020 What did 1st century Thessalonians know about the American presidency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 29, 2020 15 minutes ago, WilliamL said: Show me one place where I've said that evil is the thing being restrained, and you got me. Otherwise, get your facts straight. As I stated in my last response to you, WHY DON'T YOU REFER TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD? The only one in need of getting things straight is you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,150 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, wingnut- said: As I stated in my last response to you, WHY DON'T YOU REFER TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD? The only one in need of getting things straight is you. My title: Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining? Restraining what? that is explained in the body of the text as lawlessness, never as evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 30, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2020 3 hours ago, WilliamL said: My title: Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining? Restraining what? that is explained in the body of the text as lawlessness, never as evil. Ok William, you are arguing semantics now. My original post in response to your OP specifically addresses one example of the US govt engaging in lawlessness. The example I gave demonstrates not only the complete disregard for the laws of the US, but also violated the Geneva Convention, which is international law. Exactly how many examples of lawless behavior by our government do you require? I chose that specific example, because what resulted from the Vietnam conflict, was 58,000 dead americans, and over 2 million dead Vietnamese. Those numbers don't reflect the entire loss of life, because the Truman administration and the Eisenhower administrations pre-dated our "official" involvement. Those numbers don't reflect the total number of lives lost, including the French, Laos, Thailand, Cambodian, and other nations that suffered casualties along the way. Roughly 3 million lives lost so a handful of men could get rich on blood money, you'll have to forgive me, but I call that evil. Furthermore, the text in question does not state that lawlessness is being restrained, you are misquoting the text. It says the man of lawlessness, son of perdition, that would be a being. On top of that, this lawlessness is not in regards to US law, or any other nations laws, this is scripture, it is referencing God's law. There are only two sides to this, good and evil, arguing semantics does not make your theory any more plausible than it was before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlade Posted June 30, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,234 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,136 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/06/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1961 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Hmm for me seems easy to understand. Is Trump U.S. the Ones Restraining? I don't believe so. Well its always about Israel. And the lawless one is not of this world. The ONLY one on this earth that has that power is? The sweet Holy Spirit.. the Church. He gave us all power over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt us. As long as the Church is here.. the lawless one will never show up. Theres no demon, fallen angel that has more power then ONE believer. For in that one believer is the king of kings lord or lords! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 30, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2020 14 hours ago, WilliamL said: And again, if it was conditions, the same thing applies: there would have been no reason for Paul to not state it in writing, instead of being so oblique. (The condition of the flood was the consummate sin of man, which is explicitly stated in the Word.) The same as with the ones restraining (the first case being in the Greek neuter, the second being in the Greek masculine) being Michael or the Holy Spirit or the Church. Paul had no cause in all such cases to obscure his meaning. All of you whose propose these solutions have provided no answer for Paul's obscurity. You just ignore the issue. It's a made up issue. Paul wasn't obscure at all. It's clear the rebellion and revealing are the event/condition that must happen/exist before Jesus returns. That's the context from 2 Thess 2:1, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and the gathering together of us to Him." In no way is this a riddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted July 6, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,150 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 (edited) On 6/30/2020 at 4:12 AM, Diaste said: It's a made up issue. Paul wasn't obscure at all. It's clear the rebellion and revealing are the event/condition that must happen/exist before Jesus returns. That's the context from 2 Thess 2:1, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and the gathering together of us to Him." In no way is this a riddle. Missing the point of the article, otherwise I am in agreement. Yes, the context is that both the apostasy and the Son of Perdition must come before the Parousia of the Lord. (Which fact most of those who have replied here vehemently disagree with.) But the question is, who is both the it and the he restraining? THAT is what Paul obscured. If this is to be Church and Spirit, Paul would have simply said so, no bones about it, because it would have been a faith-building statement. Edited July 6, 2020 by WilliamL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted July 6, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,150 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,567 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 6/29/2020 at 6:17 PM, wingnut- said: Furthermore, the text in question does not state that lawlessness is being restrained, you are misquoting the text. It says the man of lawlessness, son of perdition, that would be a being That is correct, the personal embodiment of lawlessness is that which government restrains, a being opposed to the selfish interests of the government's authority. In the time of Antiochus, the legal governing authority over Israel was the High Priest Onias III, which Antiochus Epiphanes had assassinated. That might well be the type for the latter-day fulfillment, because the Son of Perdition is the type of Antiochus, both being responsible for an abomination of desolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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