Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Noticed everytime a comment is made to you, You focus on the minutia, and ignore the thrust of the argument.

False personal attack noted. 

Let me know when you can post with manners and respect and stick to the topic of discourse, and post truthfully. My op-reply does not "focus on minutia," and if I don't respond to digressive and post hoc fallacious inquiries it is not because I do not know the answers.

CONGRATULATIONS! You win the duck dodgers award.... "Thththat's all folks"

[JAG**]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

 My op-reply does not "focus on minutia," and if I don't respond to

digressive and post hoc fallacious inquiries it is not because I do not

know the answers.

Josheb, 

My view is that you are making valuable contributions to

Postmillennialism and to Christendom and to the thread-readers.

Discussions of Christian Eschatology in threads on the Internet

At Large almost always  have ad hominem and huge enormous 

Data Dumps and huge enormous Screen Shots of charts and

pictures and often huge enormous fonts which are interpreted

by some posters to be shouting. 

_________

Back to the ad hominem.

I had one Christian brother on another forum  who told me the following,

he said, "I learned my name-calling from Jesus."

And then he quoted Matthew 23 where the Lord Jesus called those

Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law "snakes and vipers."  How do you

like that for "proof-texting"? Never mind that the Pharisees and

Teachers Of  The Law tried to murder the Lord Jesus on several

occasions and  finally did do that before they were finished.  And never

mind that the people he was calling very bad names were his Christian

brothers in Christ and were NOT the Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law.

 So what? He had his "proof text" and that was enough for him!

My answer to all that up there is this:

The core principle of Christianity is Love. We can see the Love Principle
made clear in First Corinthians chapter 13.
 
{1} Love is patient.
{2} Love is kind.
{3} Love does not envy.
{4} Love does not boast.
{5} Love is not proud.
{6} Love is not rude.
{7} Love is not self-seeking.
{8} Love is not easily angered.
{9} Love keeps no record of wrongs.
{10} Love does not delight in evil.
{11} Love rejoices with the truth.
{12} Love always protects.
{13} Love always trusts.
{14} Love always hopes.
{15} Love always perseveres.
{16} Love never fails.
{17} These three remain: faith, hope, and love.
{18} But the greatest of these is Love.

JAG

Edited July 11, 2020 by JAG**

[dhchristian]

Just now, JAG** said:

Josheb, 

My view is that you are making valuable contributions to

Postmillennialism and to Christendom and to the thread-readers.

Discussions of Christian Eschatology in threads on the Internet

At Large almost always  have ad hominem and huge enormous 

Data Dumps and huge enormous Screen Shots of charts and

pictures and often huge enormous fonts which are interpreted

by some posters to be shouting. 

_________

Back to the ad hominem.

I had one Christian brother on another forum  who told me the following,

he said, "I learned my name-calling from Jesus."

And then he quoted Matthew 23 where the Lord Jesus called those

Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law "snakes and vipers."  How do you

like that for "proof-texting"? Never mind that the Pharisees and

Teachers Of  The Law tried to murder the Lord Jesus on several

occasions and  finally did do that before they were finished.  And never

mind that the people he was calling very bad names were his Christian

brothers in Christ and were NOT the Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law.

 So what? He had his "proof text" and that was enough for him!

My answer to all that up there is this:

The core principle of Christianity is Love. We can see the Love Principle
made clear in First Corinthians chapter 13.
 
{1} Love is patient.
{2} Love is kind.
{3} Love does not envy.
{4} Love does not boast.
{5} Love is not proud.
{6} Love is not rude.
{7} Love is not self-seeking.
{8} Love is not easily angered.
{9} Love keeps no record of wrongs.
{10} Love does not delight in evil.
{11} Love rejoices with the truth.
{12} Love always protects.
{13} Love always trusts.
{14} Love always hopes.
{15} Love always perseveres.
{16} Love never fails.
{17} These three remain: faith, hope, and love.
{18} But the greatest of these is Love.

If Your theory cannot handle criticism and respond to logical fallacies under peer review, then it is not a theory, but a dictate. Cancel culture apparently has made its way into Christian discussion and those critiquing a theory are determined to be "Haters".... This is not free speech and the free battlefield of ideas where truth wins but rather Maoism at its worst. 

Disgusting if you ask me. " LOVE REJOIOCES WITH THE TRUTH" see verse 11 above 

[Alive]

On 7/10/2020 at 8:30 AM, Josheb said:

And you're doing a miserable job. The effort to refute the "thousand" of the Psalm failed once it was acknowledged the term is used figuratively elsewhere. 

Postmillennialism makes no such suggestion. That is a straw man. No one will ever be informed of the weaknesses of anything by arguing straw men. Then angel is in the details. It is not Christianity that will "win over the world," it is God and the gospel through the work of the Holy Spirit that will have victory over all. The op starts out with a slight misrepresentation when it states, "The world will eventually become a Christian world," but that is not exactly what Postmillennium teaches and I clarified that in my op-reply(-ies). The op agreed. Several of the quoted sources clarify this as well. 

It is God is the One who is victorious. 
The victory is not won via the fleshly work of the Church or any group of individual Christians. 
God will be victorious by the power of the Spirit making the gospel victorious in accordance with commands like the "great commission."

Alas, it is a parable. It is a parable spoken to Jews. Not only is this a parable but you've proof-texted half a verse. When we read the passage as a whole we find the reason he is returning is to bring justice to those who have been crying out to him day and night. That would be people of faith. 

Hebrews 11:1-6
 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.  For by it the men of old gained approval.  By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.  By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.  By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

So Luke 18:8 does not in any way say God will not be victorious. Nor does it assert faith will not be found; it asserts the exact opposite. Nice fail. 

You mean that's not it is portrayed in your reading of prophesy. We've already seen how comfortable you are with red herrings, straw men, and proof-texting. Now we read an attempt to leverage eisegetic reading of prophesy over whole scripture. 

Psalm 110:1 says, "The LORD said to my Lord. 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for you feet." In Matthew 22:44 uses this verse to highlight the ignorance of the Pharisees. Later, in Matthew 26, Jesus tells his disciples, "...from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." That little word, "now" trips a lot of people up. It forces the reader to examine his/her belief = Do I truly believe what I am reading when Jesus states he is now seen seated at the right hand of power? Clearly you do not believe, or if you believe then he is doing a "weak" job of it. Your words, not mine. 

One of the points this op is making is the problem with the pessimistic eschatologies: they do not help a believer live victoriously. S/he will not live victoriously because s/he doesn't believe Jesus is enthroned and there won't be any victory until the world goes to hell in a hand basket and Jesus comes to reign for a thousand years..... but even that won't work because there's gonna be a rebellion at the end of his reign. Jesus' own earthly reign fails. If a person believes that then s/he will live accordingly. 

I have already covered much what Acts 2 states about Jesus' reigning but I will reiterate the salient point: Peter reports the prophesies of Joel 2 and Psalm 110 were fulfilled at Pentecost. Again, this places the reader in the position to have to examine their beliefs and their faith and ask Do I really believe what I just read? because those who say "No" are the one Jesus is talking about in Luke 18:8. 

Paul appeals to Psalm 110 in 1 Cor. 15:20-28 when he writes prophetically about the pending events of Christ as the first fruits and the events leading up to when he hands over the kingdom to his Father. Paul states, "For he must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet." Jesus is currently reigning and he must continue to do so until the LORD makes his enemies a footstool and places them under his feet. It does not say anything about utopia and an idealized world. All of these verses openly assert enemies exist. Nowhere does it say they will all be Christianized and Postmilennialism does not teach such a thing.

It simply stands firmly on scripture when scripture states Jesus reigns and he will continue to do so until his enemies are defeated. 

But you, Retrobyter, question the claim Jesus is currently reigning even though Jesus himself stated it is a "now" condition, Peter reported it was a fulfilled prophesy, and Paul wrote implying the same. In Ephesians 1:20-22 Paul agains asserts Jesus is seated at his Fathers right hand and "God put everything under his feet and made him head over everything for the Church." Do you believe what is stated? You're big on language and wording. Paul is clearly writing about an already-existing condition. Paul tells the Colossians to strive for the things of above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Col. 1_20-22). This fact of Christ already being enthroned is repeated throughout the New Testament. 

The problem is not that prophesy paints a different picture; it is that your reading of prophesy paints a different picture. Why? Perhaps it is because the prophesies are not read through the filter of Psalm 110, Jesus declaration in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, what Peter said in Acts 2, what Paul wrote throughout his epistles and what is repeated throughout the whole epistolary: Jesus is seated at his Father's right hand NOW! 

Nothing in the New Testament says the throne is on earth. You and Roar have failed to prove that point. A lot of posts and cyberspace, time, and effort with large fonts and many different colors but critical examination shows it is empty. Nothing I have posted has been refuted and you are now on record denying Christ is enthroned, or if his throne is acknowledge it is deemed "weak." You have a weak Jesus. Your words, not mine. 

Do please take some time this weekend and study through Psalm 110 and how the New Testament writers understood it and asserted it (again and again, and again). Then read the prophesies through that lens. Examine the places in the New Testament where Christ is asserted to already be enthroned, where he is the king of the kingdom of God, where he has enemies but remains in authority despite their existence. 

 

Because, so far, not a single one of your efforts has been successful scripture or logically. The effort to prove the weaknesses of Postmillennialism has been built on red herrings, straw men, abuses and denial of scripture, and a personal anecdotal perception of Christ's weak reign. I will gladly let you have that set of views. Just don't take it personally when I point out these mistakes. 

 

 

@josheb  You get an E for excellent effort in sticking to the TOS, but in fairness, this is getting very close and actually is indeed pointing to a discrediting of a poster himself rather than citing the words said. Please be careful. This topic has inflammatory potential without any extra help.

Thank you

[JAG**]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

. . . the point is an implied pledge to adhere to the TOS, here at the forum, while practicing

your freedom to express thoughts and to counter what you believe is untrue or wrong. For

myself, in these topics here--I try to consider that they are not salvation related. There is

so much disagreement regarding the end times. These discussions have a built in half-life

and will inevitably become part of the massive archive of the same. The Lord is still God

and we are His sons by the awesome power of the work of Jesus Christ and His never

ending Love, Grace and Mercy toward us and those who will be gathered in.

Alive, you make interesting and helpful points. The following is

NOT to detract from  anything you said up there, but to make

some positive  constructive contributions. It is true that what we

post in threads on the Internet will most likely end up in the

Cyber Graveyard Of Dead And Buried Threads -- never to be seen

again , , ,  at some point in time.

Nonetheless  , , , ,

My view is that we "Keyboard Peckers" sitting at our computers

pecking away on our keyboards DO make at least some measurable

amount of contribution to the lives of at least some human beings

who read what we write. If we write "good stuff." And you do.

_________________

i like to start with the number one {1} and make the point that if

what I write and post can be a good positive constructive  influence 

in the life of just one {1} human being, then its well worth the 

effort. I betcha you'd agree with that. Moreover, I betcha ya

 you already know all this stuff I'm writing in this post. But

it don't hurt to re-emphasize it.

________________

We never know who is reading our posts. And we never know

who or  how many  are being blessed by what we write.

I personally will keep on posting and writing if I can make a

positive constructive contribution to the life of just one human

being in some measurable amount, even if only this 0.001

Yah. I'll do it for only this much 0.001

_____________

 

{I betcha you didn't  know I was reading your posts.}

So we never know who we are helping. Its just impossible 

for us to know. How so? Because of the Internet Lurkers

for one thing. If you believe the member counts given

usually at the bottom of Forum's home page then you

usually see the number of members logged in and the

number of "guests" that could be non-members or

not-logged-in members. Some of them are Internet

Lurkers. They could be reading your posts and could be

"being helped" by what they are  reading.

You just wrote up there:

"The Lord is still God  and we are His sons by the awesome

power of the work of Jesus Christ and His never  ending

Love, Grace and Mercy toward us and those who will be

gathered in."___Alive

That was a blessing to read. I liked reading that. Good.

That  was "a good." 

_______________

You're absolutely right in what you said about  end time

discussions.

My view is that there are a lot of Christians that are deeply

emotionally involved with the end times and have a very

difficult time being "disinterested" in their discussions.

The term "disinterested" is often used to mean that the

debater has the ability to keep his/her emotions totally 

out of the discussion and discuss the subject strictly

from an intellectual academic point of view. I have

NEVER seen a lengthy thread on the Internet At Large

on the subject of Christian Eschatology where  there

was an absence  of ad hominem and for that matter,

as I said up thread, huge Data Dumps and huge

Screen Shots, and Huge Pictures and huge Fonts, etc.

Nonetheless, there can be many helpful truths shared

in these discussions on Christian Eschatology.

___________

 

One last point. My view is that all my brothers and sisters

in the Lord who hold views that are either , , , 

 ■ Postmillennialism
 ■ Amillennialism
 ■ Premillennialism
 ■ Dispensationalism

, , ,  , are all honest and sincere in what they believe and are

trying as best they can, where they are right now, to get to the

truth and honor the Lord.

Best

JAG

 

[JAG**]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

If Your theory cannot handle criticism and respond to logical fallacies under

peer review, then it is not a theory, but a dictate. Cancel culture apparently

has made its way into Christian discussion and those critiquing a theory are

determined to be "Haters".... This is not free speech and the free battlefield

of ideas where truth wins but rather Maoism at its worst. 

Disgusting if you ask me. " LOVE REJOIOCES WITH THE TRUTH" see verse

11 above 

Thank you for your comments.

My view is that Postmillennialism is in perfect harmony with "Love

rejoices with the truth" in Romans 13:11

My view is that Postmillennialism is not a theory but factually true.

My view is that there are no logical  fallacies in Postmillennialism.

I feel sure you are NOT a hater.

I encourage you to continue to make your voice heard.

I believe you are 100% honest and sincere in your beliefs. 

Best.

JAG

 

 

``

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, JAG** said:

One last point. My view is that all my brothers and sisters

in the Lord who hold views that are either , , , 

 ■ Postmillennialism
 ■ Amillennialism
 ■ Premillennialism
 ■ Dispensationalism

, , ,  , are all honest and sincere in what they believe and are

trying as best they can, where they are right now, to get to the

truth and honor the Lord.

Best

JAG

 

Yup, yup, yup and another yup in case I counted wrong.

:-)

This part is what I most hope, in these discussions, that will be kept in mind and regularly accessed.

The human dynamic associated with our faith and those strong beliefs that fuel it, inevitably give rise, at times--to an exposure of the earthen vessel that holds the treasure. This is actually the way it is supposed to be. We all desire the 'treasure within the earthen vessel' to shine all the more for its Glory. I picture an analogy there. Where the fruits of the Spirit can shine within the context of disagreement. God is pleased with this, as He know full well all of the pitfalls and more.

There are no entities in this Creation, that are so blessed--to have this Life--Christ Life within--and ever available to draw on with hearts and minds. Every interaction, is potential to be further changed into His likeness. This is most marvelous and all of our controversies pale before it.

[Alive]

Please stick to debating the topic at hand--we are getting far too many reports from this thread and others. Its hard to keep up with. Each time, it requires reading a great deal to try and figure out what is going on. Please help, by not creating so much work.

These are personal in nature as opposed to topical.

:-)

I need to get the smoker going for some country style ribs!

[Alive]

LOL

It may be approaching exhaustion!

 

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Roar said:

Then why not close it?

Because I don't think its called for...besides folks from various positions are having an opportunity to express themselves. This may even be cathartic.

:-)

C'mon, man.