Is faith a work ?

[Faithwilldo]

37 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Construction fallacy (from part to whole). The verse simply asserts no one can usurp God's mind, not that God controls every thought or choice of every human on every occasion. 

 

Same problem, except on this occasion the implicit freedom to do God's will found in the clause, "the man that executeth my counsel," is being ignored. If God is controlling everything then there is no predicate condition of whether or not anyone will execute God's counsel. It is "counsel" not determinism. 

 

 

So, once again, you've skated over what I asked and practiced copy-and-paste, not exegesis. 

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

There is no scripture that says man as a limited free will.  If our will is limited, then it cannot be free.  These verses above leave no room for your beliefs.  God is NOT like like a man who doesn't always get what he desires.  God exercises full authority and power over His creation to achieve all that He desires. 

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Your belief in limited free will is a "work" that Christ rejects.  It is the Old Wine.  We can contribute nothing to our salvation.  God is the One who prepares our hearts to accept Him.  All His work is done "within" us.  That is  where the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ) dwells and works.  He is cleaning the inside of our cup.

You simply do not accept the above verses.  You are trying to take credit for some of the work of Christ within us.  When one believes as you do, they have committed the sin that leads to death.  They have fallen back to "works" for salvation.  Because of this lack of faith, that fallen away person will be judged by the Law.  And since they can't follow the Law perfectly, Christ will deny them and say that they practice "lawlessness".

Mat 7:23  “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

  

Edited July 15, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Guest theElect777]

2 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

ONLY the Elect in this present age are predestined to be First Fruits.  They are the early and best portion of the harvest.  They are few in number.  As for the rest of mankind, Christ will save them at the end of the growing season (final age).  He is the good farmer and He will bring in a full harvest.  The Feast of Tabernacles symbolizes this final harvest.  At this time, Christ will call out to the lost:

 John 7:37-38  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Bride of Christ is the Elect, the First Fruits.  Christ's call to the lost occurs at the end of the final age - it occurs at the consummation (end) of all the ages.

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You say that man has a "choice" to decide to act on the faith that Christ gives us but the "choice" we make is caused by God. 

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ clearly says that He will save all mankind and He even says that He is the cause behind the choice that we make.  Mankind does not have a "free will".  Most people reject those verses and claim that Christ would never force anyone to accept Him and that is true.  When you accepted Christ, did you feel like He forced you?  I'm sure you would say no.  So how did He cause you to accept Him?  As the scripture says, He prepared your heart and gave you the answer from your tongue.  He caused your "will" to conform to His "will", not by force but by giving you His Spirit.  And just like Paul on the Damascus Road, you immediately accepted Him as Lord.  When Christ comes to anyone and gives them His spiritual gifts, they too will immediately accept Him because He prepared their hearts to receive Him.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

Any supposed "free will" effort on our part to add to Christ's work of saving us is not supported in scripture.  In fact, scripture says the opposite - no man can boast about their salvation because it was 100% the work of Christ.  To claim as you do that mankind has the ability to make a free will "choice" to accept Christ after He gives us His spiritual gifts is not supported by any scripture.  In fact, that understanding conflicts with many scriptures.  If you won't accept those scriptures, then there is nothing more I can say and we probably don't need to continue this discussion. 

Joe 

 

 

 

Revelation 14:9-11

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

 

According to this, those humans who accept the Mark of the Beast will not only experience God's Wrath, but will be tormented with fire and brimstone with their smoke of their torment ascending upward FOR EVER AND EVER.

 

If God is planning on punishing these humans, what makes you so certain God is not going to make ALL humans be punished who rejected Him?

 

Seeing just how clear Revelation 14 is I cannot accept your views of a second chance.

 

So I ask, are you claiming even those who accept the Mark will be given another chance, even though the Bible is clear they will be tormented forever and ever?

Edited July 15, 2020 by theElect777

[Faithwilldo]

4 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

 

Revelation 14:9-11

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

According to this, those humans who accept the Mark of the Beast will not only experience God's Wrath, but will be tormented with fire and brimstone with their smoke of their torment ascending upward FOR EVER AND EVER.

If God is planning on punishing these humans, what makes you so certain God is not going to make ALL humans be punished who rejected Him?

Seeing just how clear Revelation 14 is I cannot accept your views of a second chance.

So I ask, are you claiming even those who accept the Mark will be given another chance, even though the Bible is clear they will be tormented forever and ever?

"Forever and ever" is not correctly translated.  It should say for the "age of the ages". 

Rev 13:3  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

This beast represents carnally minded, fallen away believers who are dwelling in the wilderness.  They are under Satan influence (spirit of antichrist).   Their number is 666 (full carnality and deception).   We all have the mark of the beast after we fall away from the truth and are deceived by Satan.  

I'm sure you don't agree with my statements above.  Revelation is given to us in spiritual symbols which on few understand.  It took me years of study before I understood it.  

Those that have the mark, can only be saved when Christ comes a second time to them and gives them the latter rain of the Spirit.  It is all part of the pathway that mankind must follow.  I had the mark of the Beast up until 2005.  When Christ came to me at that time, the brightness of His appearing destroy the man of sin who I had become under Satan's influence.  This pathway is the same for all of Christ's First Fruits of His harvest.  

Also, you keep using the word "chance" but our salvation is not a "chance".  We play no part in the work of Christ saving us.  Christ does not leave it up to "chance".  He prepares our heart to receive Him.  If He did not, no one would ever be saved.

Joe

[Faithwilldo]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Scripture says otherwise. I provided them and they are being ignored. 

No, according to you, it is caused by God. God worked in me to cause beliefs He rejects. This is the God being asserted by this op. It is self-contradictory, and therefore it is irrational. 

The personal attacks don't change the facts in evidence. The ad hominem is fallacious, a work of flesh (Gal. 5:20). According to the position being asserted by this op, God is causing you to attack a brother in Christ, thereby causing a violation of His commands pertaining to how we are to address one another (Eph. 4:29; Phil. 2:3-4; Col. 4:5-6). If God is the cause of everything then He is causing you to be a command-breaker. He is, in turn, gonna hold you accountable for what He has caused you to do. You don't actually have any fee will, limited or autonomous; He has caused you to violate His word and He has caused you to avoid answering the otherwise very valid and op-relevant questions asked of you.

 

Once again, the question asked has not been answered: 

Are you a universalist? 

If not, then please clarify what is meant when saying God will have all men saved.

 

I shouldn't have to ask more than once.

As I said before, this is not a beneficial discussion with you.  You are insulting and argumentative and won't accept scripture or my statements.  There is no reason to continue.

[Guest theElect777]

31 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

"Forever and ever" is not correctly translated.  It should say for the "age of the ages". 

Rev 13:3  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

This beast represents carnally minded, fallen away believers who are dwelling in the wilderness.  They are under Satan influence (spirit of antichrist).   Their number is 666 (full carnality and deception).   We all have the mark of the beast after we fall away from the truth and are deceived by Satan.  

I'm sure you don't agree with my statements above.  Revelation is given to us in spiritual symbols which on few understand.  It took me years of study before I understood it.  

Those that have the mark, can only be saved when Christ comes a second time to them and gives them the latter rain of the Spirit.  It is all part of the pathway that mankind must follow.  I had the mark of the Beast up until 2005.  When Christ came to me at that time, the brightness of His appearing destroy the man of sin who I had become under Satan's influence.  This pathway is the same for all of Christ's First Fruits of His harvest.  

Also, you keep using the word "chance" but our salvation is not a "chance".  We play no part in the work of Christ saving us.  Christ does not leave it up to "chance".  He prepares our heart to receive Him.  If He did not, no one would ever be saved.

Joe

 

 

I agree with terms from the Greek that translate to eons/ages.  Also, I am not in this discussion to ultimately prove you wrong.   With that in mind, I also am not in a position to agree with much of what you're claiming either.   But I do enjoy seeing different viewpoints.   And since you did mention "ages," by looking at what you have posted towards me I would gather you think those who take the Mark and receive god's wrath will eventually be freed at the end of that specific AGE?

 

I did read your "About Me" section learning more about your conversion.  Tell me something here, what sets you and your wife apart from other Believers for God to give you such a "revelation" that no other has been given?

[Faithwilldo]

2 hours ago, theElect777 said:

 

 

I agree with terms from the Greek that translate to eons/ages.  Also, I am not in this discussion to ultimately prove you wrong.   With that in mind, I also am not in a position to agree with much of what you're claiming either.   But I do enjoy seeing different viewpoints.   And since you did mention "ages," by looking at what you have posted towards me I would gather you think those who take the Mark and receive god's wrath will eventually be freed at the end of that specific AGE?

 

I did read your "About Me" section learning more about your conversion.  Tell me something here, what sets you and your wife apart from other Believers for God to give you such a "revelation" that no other has been given?

It is nice to speak with you.  You seem to be a gentle person who does not get offended or argumentative when someone presents a point of view that is different from your own.  

You asked:

I would gather you think those who take the Mark and receive god's wrath will eventually be freed at the end of that specific AGE?

Yes, absolutely.  Jesus is the Savior of the world and He cannot fail (God is love and love never fails).  Christ has a plan to save all mankind. 

Here is a quick summary of that plan:

Most of mankind will NOT be "called out" by Christ.  They will die as unbelievers and be judged in the final age.  Their judgment by Christ is not like man's judgment.  Christ is loving & merciful and does not change just because He is judging someone.  Here is what scripture says His judgment is like:

 Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Christ's judgment is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness and saving us.  It is symbolized by "fire".  Fire purifies us and burns away our impurities.  Without judgment we would not be saved.  The Elect are judged now in this present age and all others will be judged in the final age.

As I said, most of mankind is never called to follow Christ during their lifetimes but "many" are called out.

Matt 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

The many who are "called out" are said to be in the "church (the called out ones).  But from that group, Christ has "chosen" a few to find salvation in this present age.  They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind.  They are NOT the full harvest - they are only the early and best portion of His harvest of mankind (by His work and choosing).  

Once a person is "called out" from the world, Christ gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit and of faith.  However, the individual is left spiritually blind at that time.  Satan moves in quickly and deceives them and they "fall away".  Falling away is when a called believer turns back to trying to please God by works.  It is the sin that leads to death.  The most common "work" is to take credit for the decision to accept Christ as Lord.  This causes the person to believe that they are smarter/wiser than the unbelievers.  It makes them self righteous which God rejects.  That is why the fallen away believers think it is justified for Christ to forever reject those that He didn't call.  They simply were not smart/wise enough to make the right choice.  The fallen away believers turned their decision to accept Christ into a "work" which justifies their belief in the Hell Doctrine.  The Hell Doctrine would collapse without man contributing something from within themselves to justify why some are saved and some are not.

If Christ has "chosen" a fallen away believer to be a "First Fruit", then Christ will come to them a second time and give them the latter rain of the Spirit.  At this time, they will see what they have become (man of sin deceived by and following Satan, they had the mark of the beast).   They see this now because upon Christ second coming them, He heals their vision so that they can finally understand His truth.  At this time, their religious carnal nature is destroyed (in "one hour" Rev 18:19) and they start walking solely by faith.  With their newly acquired spiritual vision, the scriptures open up and they start learning the truth for the first time.  The truth will sanctify them.  Christ then begins judging them so that they mature and produce spiritual fruit.

Those believers who are left in their fallen away condition will die in their sins and be judged with the unbelievers.  They will be saved at the end of the final age with the Jews being saved last (the first will be last).  

The Nation of Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years also "types" this path.  The nation of Israel represents the "called out" believers who fall away.  Joshua and Caleb are typed as the Elect.  The number 2 in scripture is a symbol for the Elect (two witnesses).  During the wandering in the wilderness, Joshua and Caleb have also fallen away and been deceived.  But they live through their time of testing and cross the Jordan River (salvation) while the rest of the nation of Israel dies in the wilderness and is not saved.  

The conversion of Paul is presented to us as the pattern whereby all will be saved.  Paul's conversion types the steps above in a little more detail.  He is called out on the Damascus Road.  There he is blinded and lead by the hand (the blind leading the blind) After laying in bed 3 days (represents his spiritual death) in Damascus, Ananias (representing Christ) comes to him and gives Paul the latter rain (second coming).  At this time, Paul begins to eat "meat" (the truth).  Like all the Elect, Paul was chosen from the beginning but he still had to experience being fallen away and being deceived by Satan.  If Christ had not come to him a second time, Paul would have remained Saul and died in his sins.  

The early and latter rain (Jam 5:7-8), the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11), the healing of the blind man (Mark 8:21-25) and other verses present portions of Christ's plan.  When it is all understood as a whole, then the full path to salvation is learned.  

Scripture is given to us as a "mystery".  It takes spiritual understanding to be able to find the truth.  The truth is given to us in bits and pieces that have to be assembled.  

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160  The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

There is much, much more that I could present in this pathway but I would need to write a book to present it to you.

You asked:

Tell me something here, what sets you and your wife apart from other Believers for God to give you such a "revelation" that no other has been given?

My wife and I were just as "fallen away" as any other called out believer.  We were happy in the church we attended.  We did NOTHING to deserve the blessings that God has given us.  We simply had been chosen by God from the foundation of the world.  But when He came to us on Oct. 8th, 2005, He turned our world upside down.  The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood.  There were earthquakes and thunder & lightning and great destruction.  However, it all happened within us.  It was 100% spiritual.  

All the end-time scriptures are talking about this spiritual conversion that happens when Christ comes a second time to a fallen away believer.  Matt 24 and Luk 21 teach the pathway to salvation, too.  That is why Christ was able to say that this generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled.  They were first fulfilled within the believers in the upper room and they have kept on being fulfilled within the life of each chosen believer ever since that time.  

I hope this helps.  I would be happy to answer any specific questions if you have any further interest.

Joe

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Guest theElect777]

2 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

It is nice to speak with you.  You seem to be a gentle person who does not get offended or argumentative when someone presents a point of view that is different from your own.  

You asked:

I would gather you think those who take the Mark and receive god's wrath will eventually be freed at the end of that specific AGE?

Yes, absolutely.  Jesus is the Savior of the world and He cannot fail (God is love and love never fails).  Christ has a plan to save all mankind. 

Here is a quick summary of that plan:

Most of mankind will NOT be "called out" by Christ.  They will die as unbelievers and be judged in the final age.  Their judgment by Christ is not like man's judgment.  Christ is loving & merciful and does not change just because He is judging someone.  Here is what scripture says His judgment is like:

 Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Christ's judgment is for the purpose of teaching us righteousness and saving us.  It is symbolized by "fire".  Fire purifies us and burns away our impurities.  Without judgment we would not be saved.  The Elect are judged now in this present age and all others will be judged in the final age.

As I said, most of mankind is never called to follow Christ during their lifetimes but "many" are called out.

Matt 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

The many who are "called out" are said to be in the "church (the called out ones).  But from that group, Christ has "chosen" a few to find salvation in this present age.  They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind.  They are NOT the full harvest - they are only the early and best portion of His harvest of mankind (by His work and choosing).  

Once a person is "called out" from the world, Christ gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit and of faith.  However, the individual is left spiritually blind at that time.  Satan moves in quickly and deceives them and they "fall away".  Falling away is when a called believer turns back to trying to please God by works.  It is the sin that leads to death.  The most common "work" is to take credit for the decision to accept Christ as Lord.  This causes the person to believe that they are smarter/wiser than the unbelievers.  It makes them self righteous which God rejects.  That is why the fallen away believers think it is justified for Christ to forever reject those that He didn't call.  They simply were not smart/wise enough to make the right choice.  The fallen away believers turned their decision to accept Christ into a "work" which justifies their belief in the Hell Doctrine.  The Hell Doctrine would collapse without man contributing something from within themselves to justify why some are saved and some are not.

If Christ has "chosen" a fallen away believer to be a "First Fruit", then Christ will come to them a second time and give them the latter rain of the Spirit.  At this time, they will see what they have become (man of sin deceived by and following Satan, they had the mark of the beast).   They see this now because upon Christ second coming them, He heals their vision so that they can finally understand His truth.  At this time, their religious carnal nature is destroyed (in "one hour" Rev 18:19) and they start walking solely by faith.  With their newly acquired spiritual vision, the scriptures open up and they start learning the truth for the first time.  The truth will sanctify them.  Christ then begins judging them so that they mature and produce spiritual fruit.

Those believers who are left in their fallen away condition will die in their sins and be judged with the unbelievers.  They will be saved at the end of the final age with the Jews being saved last (the first will be last).  

The Nation of Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years also "types" this path.  The nation of Israel represents the "called out" believers who fall away.  Joshua and Caleb are typed as the Elect.  The number 2 in scripture is a symbol for the Elect (two witnesses).  During the wandering in the wilderness, Joshua and Caleb have also fallen away and been deceived.  But they live through their time of testing and cross the Jordan River (salvation) while the rest of the nation of Israel dies in the wilderness and is not saved.  

The conversion of Paul is presented to us as the pattern whereby all will be saved.  Paul's conversion types the steps above in a little more detail.  He is called out on the Damascus Road.  There he is blinded and lead by the hand (the blind leading the blind) After laying in bed 3 days (represents his spiritual death) in Damascus, Ananias (representing Christ) comes to him and gives Paul the latter rain (second coming).  At this time, Paul begins to eat "meat" (the truth).  Like all the Elect, Paul was chosen from the beginning but he still had to experience being fallen away and being deceived by Satan.  If Christ had not come to him a second time, Paul would have remained Saul and died in his sins.  

The early and latter rain (Jam 5:7-8), the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-11), the healing of the blind man (Mark 8:21-25) and other verses present portions of Christ's plan.  When it is all understood as a whole, then the full path to salvation is learned.  

Scripture is given to us as a "mystery".  It takes spiritual understanding to be able to find the truth.  The truth is given to us in bits and pieces that have to be assembled.  

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160  The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

There is much, much more that I could present in this pathway but I would need to write a book to present it to you.

You asked:

Tell me something here, what sets you and your wife apart from other Believers for God to give you such a "revelation" that no other has been given?

My wife and I were just as "fallen away" as any other called out believer.  We were happy in the church we attended.  We did NOTHING to deserve the blessings that God has given us.  We simply had been chosen by God from the foundation of the world.  But when He came to us on Oct. 8th, 2005, He turned our world upside down.  The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood.  There were earthquakes and thunder & lightning and great destruction.  However, it all happened within us.  It was 100% spiritual.  

All the end-time scriptures are talking about this spiritual conversion that happens when Christ comes a second time to a fallen away believer.  Matt 24 and Luk 21 teach the pathway to salvation, too.  That is why Christ was able to say that this generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled.  They were first fulfilled within the believers in the upper room and they have kept on being fulfilled within the life of each chosen believer ever since that time.  

I hope this helps.  I would be happy to answer any specific questions if you have any further interest.

Joe

 

 

 

 

 

During this conversation you made a statement where the Old Testament people never had a chance to accept Christ.   You clarified Christ would give those people a second chance.   But let's take a person like Adolf Hitler.   He was well versed in the Bible.   He knew all about Christ.   He had his moment where he could've converted but chose to be the enemy of the Jews.   Why would Christ give him a second chance since he refused Christ on his first encounter?   And let's say after spending an "AGE" in Eternal Damnation they refuse Christ a second time?   Will Christ keep coming back until they finally accept Him?

 

As a whole how I view what you're saying, it has no bearing on my Salvation.   So I see even if you believe as you do and are wrong it won't effect your walk in God.   But like my own Salvation is a Gift from God, nothing I have done makes me deserve it.   The Faith after hearing was a Gift to me.   The conversion with the given Faith was all of God's doing.   And my desire to continue to grow in Him was His works.   I am predestined and I could not be any happier about it than I am this very moment.   So I would have no issue about someone spending a point of time in Damnation being given a second chance.  I just do not see it laid out in Scripture that way.   All of your Verses don't indicate to me a second chance.   They could if I wanted them to.   But I think I would be manipulating the meaning.

 

I guess ultimately what I am saying is why convert if we all get the same prize?   According to you it's just on different time tables.   I know you're saying conversion is going to be the ultimate outcome.   It just makes no sense to be equally/unequally yoked if ultimately we will all be equally yoked at a different time.   For the "Lost" I hope you are correct.   I just cannot see it the way you do.   God is not the God of confusion.   You would think this would be pretty clear to find.   Ad you used Paul as an example.   You would think in his writings it would be even clearer.   It's definitely a nice "Theory," I'll give you that!

[Guest theElect777]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Well, according to Galatians 3:8 the gospel was preached in the OT and people were given the opportunity to accept Christ. 

Galatians 3:7-9
 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”  So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 

Amen!

I believe this as well.   But the other poster has an interesting viewpoint and I was just trying to understand what he was claiming.

[steve morrow]

ABRAHAMS  WORKS

JOHN 8:39  they answered and said unto  HIM  abraham is our father  JESUS  saith unto them if you were abrahams children you would do the works of abraham

GENESIS 26:4  and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven and will give unto thy seed all these countries and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed 

--26:5-- BECAUSE -- that abraham obeyed  MY  voice and kept  MY  charge  MY  commandments  MY  statutes  and  MY  laws

ROMANS 4:20  he staggered not at the promise of  GOD  through unbelief but was strong in faith giving glory to  GOD   --4:21-- and being fully persuaded that what  HE  had promised  HE  was able to perform 

JAMES 2:23  and the scripture was fulfilled which saith abraham  BELIEVED  GOD  and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and he was called the friend of  GOD 

 

JOHN 15:13  greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends  --15:14-- YOU  ARE  MY  FRIENDS-- IF-- you do whatsoever I command you

LUKE 17:33 whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it 

 

DOCTRINE OF TRILOGY ???

2 JOHN 1:9  --- WHOSOEVER TRANSGRESSETH --- and abideth not in the doctrine of  CHRIST  hath not  GOD  he that abideth in the doctrine of  CHRIST  he hath both  THE  FATHER  AND  THE  SON

--1:10-- IF  there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him  GOD  SPEED

--1:11-- for he that biddeth him  GOD  speed  is partaker of his evil deeds 

 

WORKS  OR  DISOBEDIENCE 

1 THESSALONIANS 1:3  remembering without ceasing ---your work of faith--- and labor of love and patience of hope in our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  in the sight of  GOD  AND  OUR  FATHER 

2 THESSALONIANS 1:11  wherefore also we pray always for you that our  GOD  would count you worthy of this calling and fulfill all the good pleasure of  HIS  goodness  ---AND  THE  WORK  OF  FAITH  WITH  POWER---

 

TITUS 2:13 looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of of the great  GOD  and  our  saviour  JESUS  CHRIST  --2:14-- who gave himself for us that  HE  might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people  --ZEALOUS  OF  GOOD  WORKS--

 

2 THESSALONIANS  1:7  and to you who are troubled rest with us when the  LORD  JESUS  shall be revealed from heaven with  HIS  mighty angels  --1:8-- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not  GOD  and that  OBEY  NOT  THE  GOSPEL  OF  OUR  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

[Faithwilldo]

14 hours ago, theElect777 said:

 

 

 

During this conversation you made a statement where the Old Testament people never had a chance to accept Christ.   You clarified Christ would give those people a second chance.   But let's take a person like Adolf Hitler.   He was well versed in the Bible.   He knew all about Christ.   He had his moment where he could've converted but chose to be the enemy of the Jews.   Why would Christ give him a second chance since he refused Christ on his first encounter?   And let's say after spending an "AGE" in Eternal Damnation they refuse Christ a second time?   Will Christ keep coming back until they finally accept Him?

 

As a whole how I view what you're saying, it has no bearing on my Salvation.   So I see even if you believe as you do and are wrong it won't effect your walk in God.   But like my own Salvation is a Gift from God, nothing I have done makes me deserve it.   The Faith after hearing was a Gift to me.   The conversion with the given Faith was all of God's doing.   And my desire to continue to grow in Him was His works.   I am predestined and I could not be any happier about it than I am this very moment.   So I would have no issue about someone spending a point of time in Damnation being given a second chance.  I just do not see it laid out in Scripture that way.   All of your Verses don't indicate to me a second chance.   They could if I wanted them to.   But I think I would be manipulating the meaning.

 

I guess ultimately what I am saying is why convert if we all get the same prize?   According to you it's just on different time tables.   I know you're saying conversion is going to be the ultimate outcome.   It just makes no sense to be equally/unequally yoked if ultimately we will all be equally yoked at a different time.   For the "Lost" I hope you are correct.   I just cannot see it the way you do.   God is not the God of confusion.   You would think this would be pretty clear to find.   Ad you used Paul as an example.   You would think in his writings it would be even clearer.   It's definitely a nice "Theory," I'll give you that!

I'm sorry you are not really understanding what I am saying.  As I said before, it is not a "chance" that we are saved.  Our salvation is 100% by the will of God that we are saved.  Mankind cannot save itself.  The only way to be saved is to walk by faith and produce fruit and Christ is the only One who can do that work within us.  We are born carnally minded, sinning machines that hate God.  Christ will change that within us WITHOUT our permission.  I know that is going against what our carnal minds think is right but if God did it any other way, we would have to contribute to our salvation and therefore would remain "self-righteous".  No one can boast about their salvation because Christ did all the work of preparing our hearts to accept Him.  Unless He has chosen a person to be saved in this age, they CANNOT be saved.  They cannot do anything unless Christ does His work within them to change them first.  Christ never did His work in A. Hitler, nor does He do His work within most of mankind.  I would estimate that far more than 99.999% of mankind will NOT be saved in this present age.  They will have to wait until the final age.  The First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind is very few indeed.  

You said:

I guess ultimately what I am saying is why convert if we all get the same prize? 

No, the First Fruits and those saved in the final age do not get the same prize.  The Elect will have salvation first and will not go through the Great Tribulation of the final age.  The Elect go through "Tribulation" but for those in the final age, it will be much harder.  Also, the Elect will rule and reign with Christ in the final age.  Those saved at the end will never receive this honor.  They will be saved but they will have suffered loss - the loss of the blessings of being "heirs".  There is a big difference. 

Also, we cannot "convert" anyone.  Christ is the only One who can do that work.  All we can do is "preach" which is how Christ has chosen to spread His word.  But only Christ can cause a person to accept the Gospel.  If He doesn't do His work within that person, you could preach to them all day long and they will NEVER accept Him.  They have no "choice" in the matter nor do they have a "chance".  They cannot do anything unless Christ works within them first.  

God is not a respecter of persons.  We are all equal in His eyes and He will do with us as He chooses.  We all must walk the same path way that leads to Christ.  The Elect first, then everyone else later.  The last to be saved is the Jews.  Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who ultimately help crucify Him:

Matt 21:31  Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, our salvation is not about "if", it is only about "when".  

You said:

You would think in his writings it would be even clearer.

God hides His truth from all but the Elect and only then after the Elect have been converted.  Scripture is written in spiritual language to keep the true meaning of scripture hidden.  

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Matt 13:10-11  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Isa 28: 10-12  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  12  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

I understand spiritual language.  As I read scripture, I see over and over again where it says that Christ is going to save all mankind.  And there are also many verses than explain His plan to do so.  

Here is another example of Christ teaching us by "type" (spiritual language):

John 8:3-10  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,  4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.  5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?  6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.  7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  8  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.  9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.  10  When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

All who are “in Adam” (all mankind) will become Christ's wife. 

Isa 54:5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon “faith” (believing God) and he was acceptable to God.  However, Adam was created spiritually blind & carnal (like all mankind is) and he soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God).  Rather than going to God in “faith” and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through “works of the flesh”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored.  But Adam turned to his own works (carnal ways) and strayed from approaching God by faith alone.  Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden.  Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.        

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents all who are in Adam (all mankind) who fornicated with another man (Satan) and has become a “harlot”.  By committing this unfaithful act, the woman (mankind) left her “first love”.  The woman could be restored to her true husband if she would come to him in “faith” and ask for forgiveness.  But the woman does as her new lover (Satan) tells her and that is to approach God by “works of the flesh”.  The woman desires to be restored to her true husband but Satan has deceived her and she is now following his ways instead of the ways of God.  This false way is why the Nation of Israel rejected Christ when He came to them and that is why “called” believers likewise reject Christ.  They too, follow the ways of Satan.  Because of the woman’s adultery and her unwillingness to be restored by “grace through faith”, God divorces the woman and her marriage relationship is ended (spiritual death). In other words, the “called” believers are killed by Satan (Matt 24:9, Matt 10:28, Rev 11:7, Mar 4:15) when they return to “works” (“fall away”, the sin that leads to death).

In verse 5, the element of the Law of Moses is added to mankind and was given to prove to us that our works can never be good enough to restore our relationship with God.  In fact, once man came under the Law, we sinned all the more.  The Law (Tablets of Stone) says that the penalty of adultery (sin) is death and that is why those entrusted with the Law were ready to stone the woman to death.   The letter of the Law kills and that is why “stoning” was used as the method of death.   The stones represent the Law of Moses.

After having been caught in the act of adultery, the Pharisees brought the woman to Christ and tempted Him to follow the letter of the Law but Christ ignored them.  Christ did not come to judge but to give us “life and to have it more abundantly (John 10:10).  He came to bring us a New Covenant, the Law of the Spirit.  The New Covenant is written in man’s heart and that is why Christ stooped to the ground and wrote in the “earth”.  The “earth” is where the “called out” believers dwell, those who are under the Law.  Christ’s act of writing on the ground represents the “early rain” of the Holy Spirit when we first come to Christ and He first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts. 

After Christ wrote on the ground, the Pharisees asked again for Christ to judge her according to the Law.  Christ “rose up” and said that only whoever is without sin should cast the first stone.    At this first stage of our spiritual development (the “early rain”), we remain under the Law and it is still there accusing us before God.  But Christ says that He (the only one without sin) is the only one qualified to judge.  Christ then stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the “latter rain”/Baptism of the Holy Spirit).  It is at this point that those who accuse her drop their stones and leave.  The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) because now the woman is empowered to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.  It is at this point that the woman comes out from under the Law and finds true acceptance with God by “grace through faith”.  We are restored to God and will “sin no more”. 

1Cor 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Joe