The Problem with Preterism

[Justin Adams]

Irenaeus was the go-to guy for some of the pivotal ideas about the early church. If you read his 'Against Heresies' you will see he puts Yeshua's age at about 53. So can he be trusted in regards to the date of the penning of The Revelation? I do not think so.

In those days, what the 'father' said was parroted by his students and those not willing or unable to refute them; they just stayed silent. So the 'majority view' was really a consensus of silence.

I do not hold to any particular end times view. They all have weaknesses. But what if the scriptures were actually completed BEFORE that terrible cataclysm of the fall of Jerusalem?  If you read Josephus account it was horrific, barbaric and a real travesty of tribulation. It really began the anti semitism movement that culminated in the holocaust centuries later. Talk about tribulation!!

And most church fathers and theologians, such as Augustine, Calvin and Luther all spoke out against the Jews generally. There was a ground swell and undercurrent of hate against Israel - it is now becoming rampant again. Yes even in some 'churches'.

Few I have read about ever thought that Israel would return to their homeland in 1948. And wonder of wonders, in 1947 Qumran was discovered. This really put the major theologies to their new task of surviving.

The Q-texts have been unequivocally upheld as historically accurate documents. Newer translations of scriptures incorporate these findings in the texts as scholars still continue the painstaking task of annotating and compiling the thousands of fragment still to be translated and assembled into meaningful texts. The Q-cuneiform cylinder seals have given scholars a wealth of knowledge. Largely, the scriptures as we have them today are much the same although sometimes augmented by the Q discoveries. The Q discoveries often corroborate the second temple theologies that are also well worth reading and give us a 'feel' for what the thoughts of the day were for the early church. 

Bottom line. If Daniel is a finished prophecy and The Revelation was penned before AD 70, then some serious questions have to be asked about the eschaton in general, and our lives today in particular.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Justin Adams

[George]

... Preterism is in error and can be simply refuted.  

If we are already in the "kingdom" as some teach, why do we pray the Lord's prayer ... Your will be done, thy kingdom COME! 

[Don19]

12 minutes ago, George said:

... Preterism is in error and can be simply refuted.  

If we are already in the "kingdom" as some teach, why do we pray the Lord's prayer ... Your will be done, thy kingdom COME! 

Colossians 1:13 says we have been translated into the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:24 says that Jesus shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father at His return.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Irenaeus was the go-to guy for some of the pivotal ideas about the early church. If you read his 'Against Heresies' you will see he puts Yeshua's age at about 53. So can he be trusted in regards to the date of the penning of The Revelation? I do not think so.

In those days, what the 'father' said was parroted by his students and those not willing or unable to refute them; they just stayed silent. So the 'majority view' was really a consensus of silence.

I do not hold to any particular end times view. They all have weaknesses. But what if the scriptures were actually completed BEFORE that terrible cataclysm of the fall of Jerusalem?  If you read Josephus account it was horrific, barbaric and a real travesty of tribulation. It really began the anti semitism movement that culminated in the holocaust centuries later. Talk about tribulation!!

And most church fathers and theologians, such as Augustine, Calvin and Luther all spoke out against the Jews generally. There was a ground swell and undercurrent of hate against Israel - it is now becoming rampant again. Yes even in some 'churches'.

Few I have read about ever thought that Israel would return to their homeland in 1948. And wonder of wonders, in 1947 Qumran was discovered. This really put the major theologies to their new task of surviving.

The Q-texts have been unequivocally upheld as historically accurate documents. Newer translations of scriptures incorporate these findings in the texts as scholars still continue the painstaking task of annotating and compiling the thousands of fragment still to be translated and assembled into meaningful texts. The Q-cuneiform cylinder seals have given scholars a wealth of knowledge. Largely, the scriptures as we have them today are much the same although sometimes augmented by the Q discoveries. The Q discoveries often corroborate the second temple theologies that are also well worth reading and give us a 'feel' for what the thoughts of the day were for the early church. 

Bottom line. If Daniel is a finished prophecy and The Revelation was penned before AD 70, then some serious questions have to be asked about the eschaton in general, and our lives today in particular.

Think about this,

Jesus told His apostles that Jerusalem would fall (70 AD), and there would be the times of the gentiles after that Lk 21:20-24.

How long the time period of the gentile trampling was after the destruction of 70 AD Jerusalem they did not know. (1900 years).

It may have been thought that it would be only a short time until Jerusalem was restored. Maybe like Babylon 70 years or 40 years or less. You may remember when Jesus was taken up in Acts 1, that the apostles thought that maybe the kingdom would be restored almost at that moment. The apostles may have thought that some of them would live to see it, resurrection/rapture.

---------------------

The Revelation could not have been written before 70 AD due to the fact that the scroll could not be opened until after the scattering of Israel. Dan. 12:4-7.

Not all of Daniel is fulfilled, but some is, that is where the difference lies. Daniel 9 is fulfilled however.

-----------------------

One of the main problems with preterism is the misunderstanding about the dest of Jerusalem in 70 AD,

Jesus did come then, His presence was there, but it wasn't a resurrection coming.

Jesus came many times after His death and resurrection, to many people, Saul on the road to Damascus for example. But it wasn't a resurrection coming that has yet to happen.

[abcdef]

22 minutes ago, George said:

... Preterism is in error and can be simply refuted.  

If we are already in the "kingdom" as some teach, why do we pray the Lord's prayer ... Your will be done, thy kingdom COME! 

Understand that there are different phases to the kingdom.

The kingdom belongs to the Father, but He has given it to His Son.

After death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28, Rev 20:14-15, then the kingdom is delivered up to the  Father by Jesus. Then the kingdom is transferred to the Father and it becomes the Fathers kingdom, after Jesus submits it to the Father.

When Jesus pray "Thy kingdom come", He is looking forward to the time of the new heavens and the new earth when sin and death are gone and He delivers up the kingdom to the Father to it's eternal state.

Then in that eternal state it is the Fathers kingdom, Thy kingdom come, the eternal kingdom of rest.

[abcdef]

2 hours ago, George said:

... Preterism is in error and can be simply refuted.  

If we are already in the "kingdom" as some teach, why do we pray the Lord's prayer ... Your will be done, thy kingdom COME! 

George,

Try understanding this one thing,

The statue of the nations in Daniel 2 has ended, the toes have ended.

The toes ended in 1967 when Israel was restored to complete military control over Jerusalem. That is what the statue is all about, yes? Control over the city of Jerusalem?

See that the statue begins when Israel loses control of Jerusalem. The statue ends when Jerusalem is restored to Israel's control. 

We are in the period between the end of the toes and the stone.

That means, that the stone is about to strike.

 

[Sister]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

George,

Try understanding this one thing,

The statue of the nations in Daniel 2 has ended, the toes have ended.

The toes ended in 1967 when Israel was restored to complete military control over Jerusalem. That is what the statue is all about, yes? Control over the city of Jerusalem?

See that the statue begins when Israel loses control of Jerusalem. The statue ends when Jerusalem is restored to Israel's control. 

We are in the period between the end of the toes and the stone.

That means, that the stone is about to strike.

 

abcdef

You say the toes ended in 1967, but the stone is about to strike?

That means the kingdom of the ten toes has not ended yet as you say, or are not saying, which one is it? 

The ten toes have not even been given power yet to rule 'as kings'.  It's during the days of these 10 kings - the end time kingdom, that Christ will return.

It's all about Christ's return.  The first time he came, was to sow peace.  The second time he will come to war and judge.  He will fight for his servants.  Now will he stand up for us.

All has to be fulfilled according to what's written.  The 10 toes have to rule for 3.5 yrs first, so that everything that was told in Revelation can be fulfilled.  You will know when that 3.5yrs starts because we were given the signs.  That sign is the Son of Perdition who rules with the 10 kings.  He will do marvelous things in the eyes of the world.

The end time kingdom will have power over the saints for the last time to persecute and oppress them.  They only have 3.5 yrs, and that's it.  Such a short ruling kingdom. 

When Jesus returns in the power and glory of his Father with all his holy angels, then all knees will bow to him.  None of the kingdoms of man shall rule over the earth ever again, for all those kingdoms are given over to Jesus and his saints.  Jesus will rule over the nations with a rod of iron, and then you will see the difference.  You will see the 10 toes crushed, and they will be no more at his return.  That system of man ruling has come to an end, for all failed to bring peace onto the earth.  Not one of those kingdoms could achieve this as all they brought was war and oppression's.

There is no peace today my friend, and the saints are not in the high positions controlling the laws of the world.  The harvest has not come, nor have the tares been burn't yet, but it shall come when those 10 toes are destroyed.  This is what we are all waiting for.  That day when our Lord returns and puts justice on the earth.

 

 

 

[CaptWalker]

I'm assuming 1929 is referring to the Great Depression?? But what about 1948...is Israel becoming a nation again not that significant??? Since it is 19 years from '29 and '67...

Edited July 17, 2020 by CaptWalker

[Justin Adams]

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Revelation could not have been written before 70 AD due to the fact that the scroll could not be opened until after the scattering of Israel. Dan. 12:4-7.

Non sequitur argument. It presumes too much and therefore is not provable.

[abcdef]

8 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

I'm assuming 1929 is referring to the Great Depression?? But what about 1948...is Israel becoming a nation again not that significant??? Since it is 19 years from '29 and '67...

CaptWalker,

The focus is on Jerusalem.

The statue of the gentile nations in Daniel 2 is about the restoration of Jerusalem and so is the Revelation, Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21, and others.

Although there are many other details and entities involved surrounding the restoration, one of the primary concerns of Israel is the state of Jerusalem.

According to Lk 21:20-24, 24, the thing that is required for Jerusalem to be restored is complete military control over the city.

In order for this to happen there would have to be control over the surrounding areas, a substantial military force, and a government.

So in order for Jerusalem to be restored a lot of other things also had to happen.

  ----------

You might also consider what events took place in order for the restoration to take place.

The events surrounding the time after 1929 (5th trumpet), drove the Israel from Europe back to Israel to restore Jerusalem. 

If WW2 had not ended, been shortened, there would be no Israel today.

The remainder of Israel among the gentile nations would have eventually blended in to the gentile nations and ceased to exist as a people.