Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

[JAG**]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

Whatever you determine the person is... give his name if he has already come.

 

 

 "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as

some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that

there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal

interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's 

antichrists and any other part of the Bible. 

The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances.  So you MUST make a clear

and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist"

and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want

to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist.

 

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

 

[JAG**]

4 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that

antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT

in John's FAR OFF FUTURE.

Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING
argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that
John was saying that the antichrist was in John's  FAR OFF FUTURE.

That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact  John's

epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation.

Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation  is the clear statements in John's epistles
that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY
Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present
time of the first century:

(1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020)
"this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century.

(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century)

(3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us"

In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT
have reference to some future time period.

So?

So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.

[douggg]

17 minutes ago, JAG** said:

 "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as

some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist

Okay, you have said that a couple of times now that antichrist who shall come is not some future evil world ruler.   Of being neither future, nor a world ruler, I presume.

Given that is your position, what is the name of the person, if he has already come?

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by douggg

[JAG**]

15 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

Given that is your position, what is the name of the person, if he has already come?

 

"He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as

some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that

there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal

interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's 

antichrists and any other part of the Bible. 

The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances.  So you MUST make a clear

and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist"

and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever

you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist.

 

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

_______________

 

John's antichrists were in John's near future , , ,

 

Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation  is the clear statements in John's epistles
that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY
Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present
time of the first century:

(1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020)
"this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century.

(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century)

(3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us"

In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT
have reference to some future time period.

So?

So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.

 

_____________________________

 

You keep asking me the same question over and over. I have explained

my answer to you several times. I think we  are at the point where we 

will have to  agree to disagree. 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**

[douggg]

15 minutes ago, JAG** said:

"He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as

some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that

there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal

interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's 

antichrists and any other part of the Bible. 

`You have already said that three times now - and I have not rebutted your position - in my desire for you to answer the question of "what was the person's name if he has already come?"

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Conversely, can you answer this question... what is the name of the messiah, called Christ, that the woman at the well said would come?

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

I bet I can get 100% correct answer from everyone here to who is the Messiah which is called Christ that the woman at the well said was coming.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Give the name of antichrist shall come person, from any of the apostles.    If you can't, it is obvious that the antichrist had not come in their day.

And still hasn't come.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by douggg

[Marathoner]

I conducted some research on this subject, @JAG**. 

You've already pointed out that antichrist is mentioned in both letters of the apostle John which comprises the only location in the scriptures where antichrist is referred to. John wrote that one who denies Christ had come in the flesh is antichrist. Looking into the writings attributed to early Christians I found mention of antichrist by Polycarp, AD 69 - 155, an elder of the church at Smyrna (the Lord's message to Smyrna can be found in Revelation 2:8-11). Polycarp is widely regarded to have been a student of the apostle John. What Polycarp wrote on this subject agrees with the apostle: those who teach false doctrines are antichrists. 

As best as I can tell Irenaeus (AD 130 - 202) was perhaps the first to establish a connection between antichrist and the Beast of Revelation. The Revelation of Jesus Christ was distributed to churches far and wide as were the apostle Paul's letters by this time; Irenaeus devised an elaborate scheme linking the "man of sin" from  2 Thessalonians 2 with the Beast from John's vision at Patmos, whom Irenaeus dubbed the Antichrist. He used numerology to "decode" the number 666, proposing various names for the Antichrist.

It appears that Irenaeus started a tradition which carried on after him, adopted by others through the centuries. 

[JAG**]

4 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

in my desire for you to answer the question of "what was the person's name if he has already come?"

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

"in my desire for you to answer the question of "what was the person's name if he has already come?"___Douggg

JAG Replies:

"He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as

some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that

there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal

interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's 

antichrists and any other part of the Bible. 

The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances.  So you MUST make a clear

and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist"

and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want

to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist.

 

1 John 2:18

1 John 2:22

1 John 4:3

2 John 7

 

_______________________

 

"18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,

even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."___Douggg

JAG Replies:

The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT

in John's FAR OFF FUTURE.

Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING
argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that
John was saying that the antichrist was in John's  FAR OFF FUTURE.

That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact  John's

epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation.

Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation  is the clear statements in John's epistles
that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY
Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present
time of the first century:

(1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020)
"this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century.

(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century)

(3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us"

In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT
have reference to some future time period.

So?

So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.


JAG

[douggg]

14 minutes ago, JAG** said:

 

What's the name of the antichrist (someone who is not a future evil world ruler per what you have stated) shall come person?    You have yet to name the person.        Jesus was the Christ (Christ the King of Israel).    So why can't you name the antichrist shall come person?

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Edited August 1, 2020 by douggg

[Justin Adams]

6 minutes ago, douggg said:

What's the name of the antichrist shall come person?    You have yet to name the person.        Jesus was the Christ.    So why can't you name the antichrist shall come person?

 

 

That might be a non sequitur type of statement. It still does not rule out Jag's proposition that there is no end times ANTI-Christ. The end times antiChrist is popularised by fables and books and all kinds of strange 'prophecies'. That notwithstanding, I see Jag's point that there is no verse to support an end times mythical 'antiChrist' figure.

[Marathoner]

There is no scriptural precedent for "the Antichrist," only the traditions of men passed down from antiquity long after the last surviving apostle (John) joined the Lord in fullness. That there were antichrists in John's day is supported by the scriptures and based upon what the apostle wrote according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit --- all scriptures are God-breathed ---  anyone who meets the criteria expressed in both of his epistles are antichrists.