Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.

[JAG**]

31 minutes ago, douggg said:

 What you are holding is a false doctrine, teaching,  based on an irrational thought

process.

you are essentially doing in similitude to what some were doing in John's day that

Christ had not come in the flesh.   You are denying that there will be a singular

antichrist person - that them in John's day were already aware of coming.       

 

Douggg,

You have no Bible-Verse arguments that can connect John's antichrists

with any other parts of the Bible. so you then seek to demonize the

message with accusations of "holding a false doctrine teaching"---and

in so doing you also demonize me because it is a sin to hold and proclaim

"a false doctrine teaching."

 

_______________________

Douggg,

I write the following to you.

I am an orthodox Bible believing born again Christian.

My wife and I attend a Bible believing Baptist-type Christian church
along with our grown children and our 6 grandchildren.

I believe the following with all my mind, heart, and soul:

I believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus. That He is fully God. (John 1: 1-5)

I believe in the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus.

I believe in the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and free from all error. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.

I believe in a coming Judgment.

I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' death
on the Cross where He died to pay for our sins. Ephesians 2:8

I believe in John 3:16 with all my heart.

I believe in all the orthodox doctrinal Protestant Creeds. That is, I am a Bible believing Protestant
in my faith and practice.

I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist.

I do NOT hold to a single weird or strange or unusual belief.

Postmillennialism is a mainstream orthodox Bible believing view

of the future of the human race and of the future of the Christian Church.

I can easily post a list of the names of dozens of Christian Postmillennial scholars
who believe the Bible is the word of God and 100% true --- but who DISAGREE with
Premillennialists on what the Holy Scriptures teach with regard to the end time passages.

There is nothing unorthodox  about Postmillennialism or Premillennialism or Amillennialism
or Dispensationalism. There are large segments within Bible Believing Christendom that holds

different views of the future of the human race and the future of the Christian Church.

There are 4 of them.

All 4 are fully orthodox and fully Christian.

(1) Postmillennialism
(2) Premillennialism
(3) Amillennialism
(4) Dispensationalism

_____________________


May the Lord bless and keep us.
May the Lord make His face to shine upon us.
May the Lord be gracious unto us.
May the Lord turn His face toward us.
May the Lord give us His protection and His peace.
(Based upon Numbers 6:24-27)

JAG

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**

[JAG**]

35 minutes ago, douggg said:

 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that

antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;

whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

1 John 2:18-19

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that

the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.

This is how we know it is the last hour. ¹⁹They went out from us,

but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to

us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed

that none of them belonged to us."___1 John 2:18-19

_________

Note the particulars in 1 John 2:18-19

(1) "this is the last hour"

That compellingly refers to the time of the first century.
It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation.
It CANNOT refer to any future time.
Just as it could not refer to the year 950 A.D.
Or to the year 1200 A.D.
Or to the year 1880 A.D.
Or to the year 2018 A.D.
It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century.


(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come"
The "NOW" refers to the time of the first century.

It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation.
It CANNOT refer to any future time.

Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D.

Or to the year 1100 A.D.

Or to the year 1680 A.D.

Or to the year 1760 A.D.

It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century.

(3) "MANY antichrists have come."
"Many is plural. There were many antichrists that had ALREADY come in the
time of the first century.
It CANNOT refer to any future time.

It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation.

Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D.

Or to the year 1000 A.D.

Or to the year 1480 A.D.

Or to the year 1260 A.D.

It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century.

(4) "They went out from us. but they did not belong to us"
This compellingly is a reference to the first century, when John wrote 1 John.
It CANNOT refer to any future time.

It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation.

Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D.

Or to the year 850 A.D.

Or to the year 1380 A.D.

Or to the year 1860 A.D.

It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century.

 

JAG 

Conclusion: John's antichrists were 1st Century Christian apostates.

 

[JAG**]

Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, one of Christendom's most accomplished and
distinguished theologians, provided 3 helpful insights on John's antichrists.


{1} John takes his antichrists out of the future and puts them

into the present time of the 1st Century.

1 John 2:18
1 John 2:22
1 John 4:3
2 John 7

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such
a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one
who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the
Son has the Father also.


2 John 7
"I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus
Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such
person is the deceiver and the antichrist



1 John 2:18 and 1 John 4:1-6 and 1 John 2:22-23 and 2 John 7 describes
a 1st Century heretical movement, and does NOT predict any future antichrist.
 

_______________________

 

{2} John expands his antichrists from being one individual

to being a multitude {"many antichrists"}

1 John 2:18-19
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the
antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is
how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they
did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they
would have remained with us; but their going showed that none
of them belonged to us

 

_______________________

 

{3} John reduces his antichrists from being only antichrists 

persons to  being a heresy, that is to say, a heretical

movement of the  1st Century

1 John 4:1-6
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the
world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but
every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the
spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is
already in the world.

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the
one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from
the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the
world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God
listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of
falsehood."

 

 Conclusion: John's antichrists were 1st Century Christian apostates.

Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist

 

 

[Marathoner]

It's most unfortunate that accusations are being leveled by some who rely upon traditions of men far removed from the apostles. The Beast of Revelation is not "the antichrist;" this notion was forwarded by Irenaeus, a 2nd century man who taught many false doctrines to the faithful. @Justin Adams mentioned another heresy Irenaeus is known for earlier in this topic. I also pointed out that Irenaeus used numerology to decipher the number 666.

This is not unlike those in the present day who do the same. There's nothing new under the sun.  

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Marathoner

[JAG**]

If you want to read some strange far-fetched assumptions and speculations of mere men

regarding the fictional character of a future THE antichrist, here is one source:

Start quote.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-rise-of-the-antichrist.html

4. Roman Revival - Comparing this text with   Daniel 7:16-24 we conclude that the

antichrist will rise up from ten kingdoms that will constitute a revived Roman Empire,

the final form of Gentile world power before Christ returns.

________________________

 

11. Resurrected Dead? - "Seemed to have a mortal wound" (13:3): Some Bible expositors believe

this mortal wound refers to the pagan Roman Empire, which died in the past but will be revived

in the end times. Others say a historical character of the past, such as Nero, Judas Iscariot,

Mussolini, Hitler, or Stalin, will come back to life and fulfill the role of the antichrist in the

end times. Others say the antichrist will actually be killed and then resurrected. Still others

say that perhaps the antichrist will be severely wounded, and Satan will supernaturally heal

this wound. Perhaps he will simply appear to be killed, though he really is not, and through

satanic trickery will appear to be resurrected.

__________________________

12. World-Wide Attention - "The whole earth marveled as they followed the beast" (13:3):

This event will no doubt make headlines around the world. Internet videos of the event

will go viral. Television reports of the event will be shown around the clock.

_________________________

 

1. The genius of the antichrist. Scripture reveals that the antichrist will be a genius in

intellect (Daniel 8:23), commerce (Daniel 11:43; Revelation 13:16-17), war (Revelation 6:2; 

Revelation 13:2), speech (Daniel 11:36), and politics (Revelation 17:11-12).

Source:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-rise-of-the-antichrist.html

End quote.

____________________

 

JAG Writes:

The above is just some of the wild assumptions and speculations  of mere men

regarding the fictional THE antichrist that they predict will come in the future.

The article at the link had 13 major points and did NOT  one time even

attempt to produce a single Bible-Verse that made the connection to any

of John's antichrists but totally IGNORED that and proceeded to issue one

mere-human-proclamation after another incorrectly assuming that there

was a connection between John's antichrists and , , , , 

■ Daniel 7

■ 2 Thess 2

■ Revelation 13

■ the book of Revelation 

■ Ezekiel 

■ the "false prophet"

■ the "harlot" 

■ the "beast"

■ the "little horn"

■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in  2 Thess 2}

 

_________________

In 1988 Ian Paisley, Evangelical minister and founder of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, made

headlines in an infamous manner by accusing Pope John Paul II as the Antichrist during one of the

pope's speeches before the European Parliament, which at the time Paisley was member of. His

accusation, and the reactions of both Pope John Paul II and other members of the European Parliament,

was recorded on video.^[78][79]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#Old_Believers

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by JAG**

[JAG**]

10 minutes ago, SONshine said:

1 John 2:18 
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

It is the last time and the horn is about to blow for the 6th time. Yes, Satan appears at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial (666).  These epistles of the apostle John are written by him specifically for "the last time"... the latter days.  He wrote them to God's elect concerning the seduction of antichrist, the father of lies, and Satan's own children, those "liars" who are not of us, not of the tribes of Israel nor of Judah even though they claim to be "God's chosen people".

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This same apostle John who wrote this epistle also wrote in his Gospel concerning the sons of Cain (the “bad figs“). You will find in chapter 8 that Jesus Christ confronted them "head on" after they claimed to be of Judah, i.e. of Abraham's seed.  Here is what He said to them, those scribes and Pharisees who claim their father is the same Father as yours:

John 8:44 
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT

in John's FAR OFF FUTURE.

Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING
argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that
John was saying that the antichrist was in John's  FAR OFF FUTURE.

That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact  John's

epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation.

Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation  is the clear statements in John's epistles
that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY
Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present
time of the first century:

(1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020)
"this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century.

(2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century)

(3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us"

In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT
have reference to some future time period.

So?

So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.


 

Edited August 1, 2020 by JAG**

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Marathoner said:

It's most unfortunate that accusations are being leveled by some who rely upon traditions of men far removed from the apostles. The Beast of Revelation is not "the antichrist;" this notion was forwarded by Irenaeus, a 2nd century man who taught many false doctrines to the faithful. @Justin Adams mentioned another heresy Irenaeus is known for earlier in this topic. I also pointed out that Irenaeus used numerology to decipher the number 666.

This is not unlike those in the present day who do the same. There's nothing new under the sun.  

 

Labeling the beast in Revelation as the Antichrist as a tradition started by Irenaeus,  does not take away from the fact that antichrist shall come,      The premise of the opening post is that "antichrist shall come" is the collective group that John was likening to the coming antichrist.    And that there is no singular antichrist shall come person.      That is why JAG** bases his proposition on "John's antichrists" rather than "antichrist shall come".

He is effectively denying that antichrist shall come in the flesh - asserting that there is no singular antichrist shall come person.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

3 hours ago, JAG** said:

 it is a sin to hold and proclaim

 

"a false doctrine teaching."

 

 

 

Do you assert there will or will not be a singular antichrist shall come person ?  

 

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

I am 71 years old myself.   50 years dedicated to these topics.   It is all I do for the most part of my time.   I know false doctrine, teaching, when I hear it.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Labeling the beast in Revelation as the Antichrist as a tradition started by Irenaeus,  does not take away from the fact that antichrist shall come,      The premise of the opening post is that "antichrist shall come" is the collective group that John was likening to the coming antichrist.    And that there is no singular antichrist shall come person.      That is why JAG** bases his proposition on "John's antichrists" rather than "antichrist shall come".

He is effectively denying that antichrist shall come in the flesh - asserting that there is no singular antichrist shall come person.

 

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding between you both, brother. I agree with JAG** that there's no scriptural basis to connect antichrists which the apostle John wrote about in his epistles with the Beast from the earth. This connection can't be made by reading the scriptures alone --- by this I mean looking only to the scriptures for guidance. You're using one verse of scripture to support your argument and in this we don't agree. How does this verse lead to elsewhere?

I suspect you're not getting JAG's point. Here's my own: antichrist is a title given to those who deceive, teaching false doctrines and denying that Christ came in the flesh. Antichrist is also likened to a spirit which is an archaic descriptive concerning the intent behind one's actions and words. For example, I'm writing in the spirit of fellowship and goodwill.  

In this sense it's true that the dragon (Satan), the Beasts, and the False Prophet are antichrists because their intention is to deceive us all. Like @JAG**, I see no scriptural basis to "The Antichrist" referring to a singular individual in space and time. How can this be when there are so many in the world?


 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Marathoner

[Michael37]

16 hours ago, JAG** said:

you do NOT have a Bible Verse that makes

a clear connection

It is you, JAG, not I that lacks clarity. I have all the clarity I need from the Word of God in its entirety, and while I don't agree with all Matthew Henry's expositions, I do endorse his use of the word antichrist where it refers to the man of sin. In his comments on 2 Thess 2, MH uses the word antichrist in the same way the inspired Scripture does in 1John 2:18, and so we know it is the antichrist of the apocalypse about whom MH comments and whom John references.

Quote from Matthew Henry on 2 Thessalonians 2

The apostle is very careful to hinder the spreading of an error into which some among them had fallen concerning the coming of Christ, as being very near (2Th_2:1-3). Then he proceeds to confute the error he cautioned them against, by telling them of two great events that were antecedent to the coming of Christ - a general apostasy, and the revelation of antichrist, concerning whom the apostle tells them many remarkable things, about his name, his character, his rise, his fall, his reign, and the sin and ruin of his subjects (2Th_2:4-12). He then comforts them against the terror of this apostasy, and exhorts them to stedfastness (2Th_2:13-15). And concludes with a prayer for them (2Th_2:16, 2Th_2:17).

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.