Daughter of Women

[Charlie744]

Spock, regarding your question about if I had responded to SONshine’s  posting that referred to both Mark and Matthew.... my response to that (her) was below her posting at the very bottom of page 4....

Hope it answers some of your questions, Charlie 

[Spock]

Charlie and wingnut, 

I couldn’t find the rebuttal to this passage from Matthew 24:15-16...

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’fn spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.“

Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.

18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.

24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

 

So I assume your rebuttal, Charlie,  is this: Jesus is warning them that when you see me CRUCIFIED those in Judea should flee to the mountains because in about 40 years Jerusalem will be ransacked and all Jews would be killed or booted out of the country. 
 

However, verses 21 and following IMO  makes that interpretation even more dubious....

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”....where it says NEVER to be equaled again......NEVER again will there be distress like this. I find it hard to believe Jesus is just talking about 70 AD....don’t you? 
 

So, here is where I stand this morning after thinking about everything from last night....before I can go on to chapter 11, I need to see chapter 9, verses 26-27.  So let me review everything that has been said about these two verses.  Wingnut, if you don’t mind, you can chime in here too....what do you think of Charlie’s interpretation of Messiah making the covenant with the many for one week?  When did Jesus or God make a covenant with the Jews for one week?  Am I missing something here?   Wing nut, has Charlie satisfactorily explained how Matthew 24:15-22 fits in to you with Daniel 9:26-27?  If so, how so?  I’d like to read what you now consider to be the game changer evidence that takes you away from the traditional interpretation.  Charlie may not respond to me here because he said he already said everything to Sonshine, so I’m hoping you got everything since you have been following this thread since day one, and you can fill in the blanks for me. Thanks, Spock 
 

26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.fn The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’fn In the middle of the ‘seven’fn he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templefn he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

[Charlie744]

Spock, I just read your post and thanks for taking the time to prepare / send it.. I believe I might need to start over with your concern.... 

Is this correct: you are questioning when did Jesus enter into a 7 year covenant?  Is that it?

if that is the question then I believe I did respond to this question but perhaps it was not SONshine .... it certainly could have been another individual who is convinced on the historical approach. 

Anyway, Jesus did NOT enter your into a 7 year covenant with the Jews!!! I was completely surprised to receive that thought by one of the folks- I never even anticipated or seen that interpretation... ever.

But my response to them was that Jesus WOULD establish His new covenant with His people, which is THE covenant mentioned in Jeremiah (31 ?). 

According to chapter 9, He will:

1) per 9:24- He must fulfill or complete these 6 requirements during the last week of Daniel’s 70th week... If you look at the 3 sections of the 70 weeks of Daniel, EACH section has their own items or things that are to be completed. The absolute most important section, the last week or the final 7 years, is where the Messiah fulfills those 6! This is one of the main reasons why the 70 weeks were segmented - this was not without purpose.

Before His crucifixion occurring in the “midst” of the last week, the Messiah would still complete them!

And in addition to those 6 requirements, He would establish His covenant also WITHIN the final week or the last 7 years! 

Thanks, Charlie 

Spock, forgot to mention- the New Covenant was established in the last week BUT of course it would stand forever- until His returns .. Charlie 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Charlie744
Missing comment.

[Charlie744]

SONshine, let me understand this... you want me to explain Matthew 24 1 to 51?

I have not studied Matthew, but I am trying to complete Daniel.  

As I mentioned to another individual who wanted me to address a verse in Revelation and why it does not “fit” with my interpretations from Daniel, I guess I might give you the same response... there is NO way to reconcile a new interpretation in Daniel with an old / different interpretation in Revelation.. Apples and oranges! 

As I had mentioned, the FIRST thing that must be accomplished is to try and correctly interpret Daniel ( assuming one finds Daniel to be quite misinterpreted as I do).

But the interpretations of Revelation and maybe Matthew (again, don’t know since I have not studied it), are have been made under the current interpretations of Daniel. 

This morning Spock asked me about the 7 year covenant made BY THE MESSIAH... The Messiah did NOT enter into a 7 year covenant—- why would He do such a thing? His New Covenant, as a result of His sacrifice, would be available to ALL who believed in Him! 

The ONLY misinterpretation (but very purposeful by design), would have to be connected / created by the RCC who specifically promoted the “he” in 9:27 as belonging to some anti-Christ figure in order to remove the “little horn” label from the pope / papacy. In order to give this some level of legitimacy, they had to also attribute God’s Covenant to this anti-Christ. Finally, this would also demand that this include the additional language in 9:27 which has the 7 year period—- but it is ONLY a 7 year covenant that would be pushed into the future- some 2,000 years in the future.

Consequently, the covenant made by the Messiah during the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks, and where He would be “cut off” in the midst of the 7 years, was purposely re-interpreted by the RCC as:

1) a 7 year covenant,

2) attributed to some mythical anti-Christ figure who will arise maybe 2,000 years in the future, 

3) this same boogeyman will fail to honor this agreement or covenant in the midst of the 7 years, 

ALL of these misinterpretations have been very successful and accepted by Christians as a result of the“futuristic” campaign by the RCC in the 1500’s by one of their brilliant Jesuit priests- Ribera or Riberi, can not remember the spelling of his name.

Prior to this campaign, and due to the attacks on the RCC by folks of the Reformation (and a very specific / identified attack on the pope / papacy as being identified as the “little horn” for the past 1,500 years (including early chuch leaders like Augustine and I think Gerome and Origin—- can be found out easily), they had to get that “monkey” off their back.

Now, after all of this and  WITHOUT having me stop EVERYTHING I am doing in Daniel, if you have a question or two that I could address from Matthew as it might or might not “fit “ with my interpretations of Daniel, I could certainly give it some attention.

One more thing if I may... from my point of view, there is absolutely no way you can support your contention that 9:27 does speak of some anti-Christ OR that it should not refer to the Messiah, His covenant which was promised to the Jews in Jeremiah AND even though I have not researched this I would guarantee that we would have NO problem finding specific language in the gospels and other NT books that speak specifically to His covenant... which certainly would point to the covenant on Daniel 9:27 ... 

Look forward to hearing back from you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, regarding your 51 verses of Daniel... I am quite sure that M 24 speaks of things that are to take place in most likely two distinct periods - many will speak of the “end times “, and others might be speaking about the time of His first coming.. 

So, what specific verses do you believe speak to or about or are tied directly (pro or con) to 9:27?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Sorry SONshine, that really is not a good or reasonable response!

If there IS a misinterpretation in Daniel, and there certainly is, then it must be corrected / properly interpreted or it would corrupt any prophecies they rely on.. 

I certainly agree that, at the end of the day, Daniel MUST agree with Revelation, BUT one must first complete Daniel...

The ONLY way your premise works is IF the interpretations of Daniel, as they currently stand, are correct and properly “fit in” nicely with Revelation and Matthew and all the black oks f the Bible... BUT that is so far from the case!!! Revelation is a complete mystery to everyone... no one can provide an interpretation that is even readable yet alone “fits in” nicely with Daniel and Matthew and the other NT books, and that is largely due to the sheer number of misinterpretations AND just plain difficulty in understanding the Scriptures.

Hope this makes sense, Charlie.  And it is nice to hear back from you even though we are so far apart . 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, just read your last two posts... 

I will try one more approach with you since I must not be communicating properly, and let’s see if we can walk through this together:

I would ask you to consider interpreting Daniel AS THOUGH YOU WERE BORN IN OR AROUND 100 AD.

This would mean that, because you lived in Spain at the time, you would not have access to ANY of the NT books (no gospels or Revelation.. nothing but the OT Scriptures).

Further, you happen to be a Jew and you are interested in studying Daniel. 

Given the above scenario, you would / should have ALL the information per the Scriptures AND the realization of the first coming of the Messiah, His crucifixion, the beginning of His New Church (including Jeremiah ‘s comments on His Covenant), and any other events that center around those specific actors identified in the 4th kingdom. And just as important, you will also accept that the RCC has not come to be at this time, so there is NO concept of the anti-Christ or a future 7 year covenant some 2,000 years in the futureetc.

Since this is the beginning of your study of Daniel, what would be your interpretations on chapter 9?

Remember, Daniel was written to / for the Jews first, therefore God had to give them ALL the information necessary for them to properly interpret Daniel! 

Now, regarding your statement you sent me... do you need Matthew or Revelation in order to properly interpret Daniel?

I certainly hope you do not think you would need them ... 

Daniel must and should be interpreted on its own   as the Jews would have attempted to interpret it.. but of course, they could not see the coming of the Messiah despite ALL the prophetic words in the OT!

Best wishes, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, I certainly agree with your comments but I hope you also consider my last message to you sent just prior to your latest post.

in any event, you are certainly blessed by God and I am sure He is enjoying every word you post ... perhaps I will need to apologize a few times... Charlie 

[Charlie744]

SONshine, it is always a pleasure speaking with you!!!

And even though we don’t agree very much, we definitely agree that our God is good and is coming soon.

Please keep in touch, all the best, Charlie. 

Have a great weekend!

[Spock]

Greetings my brothers in Christ,

hey Charlie, I will not ask you again to give a commentary in Matthew 24 since you have not studied it......but since you have studied Daniel 9, please explain what this means....I will capitalize the key words I’m looking for your thoughts on.....thanks

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘SEVEN.’fn In the middle of the ‘SEVEN’fn he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.