JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[Justin Adams]

7 hours ago, Biblican said:

I know for sure that Preterism is a man inspired doctrine that was not taught by the apostles. The Daniel stuff is thoroughly researched and accurate. Preterism teaches that everything in Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD (Even though  the Euphrates was not drying up at that time. Just ignore that fact.) Because Preterism eliminates "Doomsday" as the Chinese refer to it, it is the communists doctrine of choice for interpreting Revelation. Help them along.

You know nothing "for sure". None of us do. I am not a preterist if you care to read my other posts and comments. As a "Biblician" perhaps you should be a little more careful and stick to the facts and not just your own doctrines...

I have previously suggested we throw out ALL our doctrines later than the 1st century. Then if we can still formulate a coherent thought, maybe start anew.

[Biblican]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

Fail. 

Any resource you choose to consult will list and teach the precepts I have here applied. ANY OF THEM!!!

So you pick one. Then apply what it teaches. You pick a dispensational one, a reformed one, a yugabamflebber one. I don't care which one you lick because they all teach the exact same guidelines. You're just wrong here, Bib. 

 

Read the text as written with its ordinary meanings of words. 
Do so unless there is reason in the surrounding text to do otherwise.
Identify the author and his intention.
Identify his audience and understand the text as they would have done so.
Never proof-text. Always read what is written in its inherent immediate context, that of the book in which it is written and the Bible as a whole. 
Do not apply scriptures written about believers to non-believers. 

 

These and other principles are near-universal. 

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Six different sites from various perspectives all teaching like concepts. Fee, Kaiser, Sproul, Blomberg.... it does not matter who you read they are all teaching the same basics. You are wrong here, Bib. I haven't done anything other than correctly apply sound biblical exegesis. 

I have given you the scriptures. 

Now I have given you the tools.

If you're still having problems then it is not with me, my position, or my end of this conversation. As I said last post: you could prove preterism wrong and still not prove your position correct and proving YOUR position correct is what you are supposed to be doing. 

So two tries down with abject failure because of the attempts to change the topic away from modern Israel to other diversions. Give it one more try. Your thesis is:

 

The secular nation of Israel does figure in Bible prophecy (even though it does not bear any resemblance to covenant Israel).

 

The only resource I choose to consult is the Bible and it contradicts what you are teaching. The Apostle Paul said to teach no other doctrine (I Timothy 1:3) which means we are not to divert from the doctrine established by Jesus through His founding apostles. Anything else is an evidence of apostasy. The man made preterist position is basically a heresy because it denies the final fulfillment of the one prophecy that Jesus did not fulfill when He was on earth. Therefore it undermines Jesus as the Messiah. It negates any future fulfillment of scripture, therefore it  negates the existence of Israel prior to Jesus' return. The fact of the matter is, Israel currently exists as a nation today and will be in existence when Jesus returns (Rev. 9, Zechariah 14). As Zechariah shows Israel will be enduring another captivity before the Lord returns. In order for her to endure that captivity she would have to be in existence. Preterism twists the scriptures to conform it to support its own agenda, instead of  receiving the scriptures at face value and allowing God's word to conform them to the doctrine the word is teaching. All false teaching and cults follow the same pattern.

[Biblican]

6 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

You know nothing "for sure". None of us do. I am not a preterist if you care to read my other posts and comments. As a "Biblician" perhaps you should be a little more careful and stick to the facts and not just your own doctrines...

I have previously suggested we throw out ALL our doctrines later than the 1st century. Then if we can still formulate a coherent thought, maybe start anew.

I think what we can know for sure is what is taught in the scriptures, and the man inspired doctrine of Preterism is not one of them. I heartily agree that we should not accept any doctrine that was instigated after the first century if it contradicts what Jesus and the apostles taught, that's why I am a first century apostolic Christian. But we are in the prophesied apostasy, which actually began to creep in approximately fifty years after the last apostle (John) died. If every Christian was diligent and determined to follow the scriptures alone we would not be debating on these forum boards about the presumed authenticity of the false doctrines that were added after the fact.

[Justin Adams]

46 minutes ago, Biblican said:

I think what we can know for sure is what is taught in the scriptures

Ah but the syntax and translations skew that somewhat. I listen to Hebraic and Greek Christian scholars to see what was really said. Inflections, verb tenses, allusions and word links are very important. Allegory and (tongue in cheek) hyperbole were fascinating earmarks of much that was written. When we know what was said and use all that is available to us (including Qumran texts) then we have a better idea of what was meant. Unless you are of the mindset and worldview of those to whom the scripture was addressed, then that is a false start. A trap many have fallen into.

The scriptures may have been given and written for us, but they were not written to us. We have to use our minds.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Biblican]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Ah but the syntax and translations skew that somewhat. I listen to Hebraic and Greek Christian scholars to see what was really said. Inflections, verb tenses, allusions and word links are very important. Allegory and (tongue in cheek) hyperbole were fascinating earmarks of much that was written. When we know what was said and use all that is available to us (including Qumran texts) then we have a better idea of what was meant. Unless you are of the mindset and worldview of those to whom the scripture was addressed, then that is a false start. A trap many have fallen into.

The scriptures may have been given and written for us, but they were not written to us. We have to use our minds.

In view of the fact that there are a variety of translations from many competent scholars, we can tell that they are all saying basically the same thing with minor differences in wording. In other words, the doctrines that the first century apostles taught remain intact.

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Biblican said:

the doctrines that the first century apostles taught remain intact.

If that is the case we should therefore see much more power in the churches. I think they have lost the supernatural plot and become staid.

[Biblican]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No, it does not. 

 

An Israel exists. Not The Israel. A country with that name exists but that country is not the country Israel of the Bible. I have already addressed this: I could by and island in the ocean and call it "Israel" but that would not in fact make it Israel. It most definitely would not in any way make prophesy fulfilled. It would be an act of flesh, not divine providence. I could even populate that island with Jews, telling them they can have that land for their own and enjoy peace and respite but that would not make that island Israel. The same facts would exist if I bought a large tract of land anywhere in the world and named id "Israel." Naming something "Israel" does not make it Israel. Filling it with (mainly cultural) Jews does not make it Israel. Segmenting a small portion of the former land Israel used to possess and putting Jews on it does not make it Israel! 

What does make it Israel. 

I have already covered that terrain and provided several measures by which we will know if and when Israel, real Israel, an Israel of God's doing, returns. 

And not a single one of you have attended to that content. 

You disagree with me. You acknowledge the reality modern Israel bears little resemblance to Biblical Israel. On that point we have agreement. However, despite acknowledging there is no resemblance beyond name and a little land, you persist in believing the country now named Israel figures in prophesy. 

Is that not a fair appraisal of the current point of disagreement? 

So, accepting that this is your position I ask you to make the case for that position and what I receive is an attack on preterism, not a case for the position modern Israel figures in prophesy even though it bears no resemblance to the Israel of prophesy. 

 

Look at your last post, Biblican. Do you see a single word proving modern Israel figures in prophesy?

This is self-evidently not true. Go back and look at your last six posts. There's not a word of scripture in any of them. There are four mentions of scripture but no resourcing it. Your own posts contradict that statement I just quoted. 

I did ask. 

 

 

So this is now the third time (and last) time I ask for what you should be doing: making the case for what you believe. You've spent more than three posts disagreeing but have yet to present any case for the claim modern Israel figures in prophesy even though it bears no resemblance to biblical Israel. I have done my part. I presented a brief summary for my position and I have provided the addresses of many scriptures for readers to check and verify what I've posted. You have not. 

I have accepted your position as your position.
I have asked for the case to support that position. 
I have been patient, kind, forbearing, hopeful, and trusting.
I have not said a single unkind word about you, personally.
I've asked once, twice, and now thrice without resorting to the same derisive practice I have received. 

I have done what I am supposed to do. I have done may part and I am waiting, waiting to see some degree of parity, waiting to read the case for the claim made. So far it looks like one does not exist. It is your argument to win or lose. No one should believe something for which no case exists. Will you now post at least some semblance of a case proving modern Israel figures in prophesy even though it does not bear any resemblance to biblical Israel, the Israel of prophesy? 

 

 

Do please now make the case for believing the secular nation of Israel figures in prophesy even though it does not bear any resemblance to covenant Israel.

 

And if you do not know how to do that then just say so. An honest, "I do not know" is a good thing. 

It does not make any difference whether the Israel of the Old Covenant is the nation of Israel today. You are nitpicking. The point is that there will be another captivity upon the Jewish people who are inhabiting the real estate that once consisted  of the land of Israel in Old Covenant times. That is illustrated in Zechariah 14. In that sense modern Israel figures in Biblical prophecy, including Revelation and the book of Daniel, and Matthew 24. The "time of Jacob's trouble" the great tribulation is described in Daniel 12:1 which correlates to Matthew 24 which is talking about this time that directly precedes the Lord's return.  Again, this tribulation falls upon the people who are inhabiting the real estate described in the Old Testament as Israel. 

[Biblican]

7 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

If that is the case we should therefore see much more power in the churches. I think they have lost the supernatural plot and become staid.

You are absolutely right. I did a study on the apostasy illustrated in the admonishments to the seven churches in Revelation and apostasy enters when the church fails to make sharing the gospel and discipling her first priority (Ephesians) and allows herself to marry foreign wives,- embrace other doctrines not taught by the apostles (Pergamos). If the church could shake off the dirt that has been allowed to accumulate on God's word and get back to the basics, we might see a revival.

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On 1/23/2021 at 1:30 PM, Justin Adams said:

Yes. Agreed. And the whole eschatology house of cards crumbles as millions shelled out cash for all this stuff of their dreams.

I would like to say, that I have learned a lot from preterists and pretrib's.

And the answer lies in between.

Find the scriptures that refer to the time after 70 AD, that tell about the people of Israel in the wilderness of the gentile nations, after they were scattered. That is the gap in both theories. Find the scriptures and you will fill in the gap (The Rev 12 woman in the wilderness- 3 1/2 t's, the 2 witness in sackcloth 3 1/2 t's, both are showing 70 AD until 1967.)

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Many of the prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD, but not all of them. Even some pretrib theories agree that the good woman of Rev 12:1-5, takes place before the 70 AD destruction, the birth and ascent of Jesus, etc., not all, but some.

So both theories do have things in common.

The idea would be to expand on these things, to fine tune the time line.

The next event that takes place after Jesus ascends in Rev 12:5, is the great scattering of 70 AD. The woman is in the wilderness for 1,260 days. In v 14, we see that the time is also 3 1/2 times.

It is a time with a beginning and an end. When the 3 1/2 times is over, the woman returns from the wilderness to Jerusalem.

What is happening is that the prophecy does not have a gap of 1900 years between vs. 5&6. The time line remains unbroken from the birth of Jesus until the end of the time that the good woman is in the wilderness of the gentile nations. 70 AD- 1967

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In Rev 12:14-17, the story is repeated, with some details. Rome is the "dragon" with seven heads and ten horns Rev 12:3. Rome chases Israel into the wilderness of the gentile nations and she is there for the 3 1/2 times (not 3 1/2 years, 70 AD until 1967.)

Preterism does not recognize an end to the time that the woman is in the gentile nations and Jerusalem is restored to the people of Israel. That would be showing that there is a time in prophecy after 70 AD.

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There was no resurrection in 70 AD.

The places in the Revelation (Rev 11:15 7th/last trumpet and Rev 20:9) that show the 2nd resurrection unto salvation (Heb 9:28), cannot be the 70 AD destruction because there is a resurrection shown.

The 7th vial shows no resurrection because the vials are directed at the activities of the beast nation Rome.

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The 6th seal of Rev 6:12-17, does show the 70 AD destruction in fulfillment of Peter in Acts 2:14-21. On the day of Pentecost Peter said that the prophecy that the prophecy of Joel  was happening in front of them, this is it v 16.

And the day of the Lord v20 that he was talking about was only 35 years away, not 1900 years.

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So the 2nd resurrection Heb 9:28 has not happened yet. And the identification of which Jerusalem is being shown in the Rev as being destroyed, the 70 AD or the restored Jerusalem, can be seen by identifying if there is a resurrection shown.

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70 AD, Jerusalem is destroyed and the people of Israel are scattered.

70 AD until 1967, the times of the gentiles Lk 20:20-24.

1967. The toes of the statue in Dan 2 end, the 7 times end, the great tribulation ends.

 1967- 2021-???? The time between the end of the toes and the stone striking.

???? Jerusalem falls, 3 1/2 days later, the second resurrection/rapt, the stone strikes, the end of planet earth with fire Rev 20:9.

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On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Fail. 

What the Bible states and what "has been shown to me," may well be two vastly, enormously different things. I have shown you scripture and it was ignored, and in the case of the last exchange it was ignored in favor of my receiving a personally derisive attack. 

I have never disputed that point. You're missing the point of dispute entirely if you think that is the problem. Big Fail. 

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Whether or not the people of Israel will be restored to Jerusalem can't/won't happen until Israel is restored.

Israel was restored in 1948, and Jerusalem was restored to Israel after that in 1967.

So what you are saying, has already happened.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

 Israel has not been restored! There is indeed a country bearing the name "Israel" within the approximate geographical boundaries

Yes, so it has the same approximate boundaries?

You have confirmed that Israel is restored on that point.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

of covenant Israel but it "Israel" in name only.

The name, land, Jews, and control of Jerusalem, that's all it takes.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

It does not bear any other resemblance to the Israel of the Bible. Can't have a Jerusalem of prophesy if you don't have an Israel of prophesy. Just because a bunch of people get together and gather a bunch of Jews and call the place where they live "Israel" does not mean it is in fact Israel.

In this case, where Israel is now, I would say that it does.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Did you at any point ever bother to consider what it is that defines Israel so that you could recognize it when it reurns

Yes

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

and 2) measure teachers' teachings to verify the veracity of what the teachings teach?

Yes

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

It does not appear you have.

Maybe at first, but give it time.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

And I did already point you to the scriptures. Israel is a covenant people (Ex. 34:27).

Yes, and many there do hold to the Law and the prophets. 

The Law is dead, but the people of Jacob are under grace.

The Law and prophets are not the only covenant, as previously shown.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

The country Israel has specified borders (Ex. 23:31).

Which borders? The ones of Joshua, the judges, Samuel, King Saul, King David, or Israel in the divided kingdom? Are you including Judah as Israel when the kingdom was divided?

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Israel is a nation and a people of the Law (Ex. 34:27)

Many there hold to Moses.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

a people of promise (Gen. 17:21; Gen. 25:23)

You are confirming that the people of Israel are still in a covenant, blessed for the fathers sake Rom 11:28.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

and of calling (Rom. 9:12).

The gifts and calling are without repentance Rom 11:29, they are still called.

Even after 70 AD.

When did the gifts and calling end? They did not end. 

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Ancient Israel was a monarchy (1 Sam. 8).

Moses was not a king. Joshua was not a king. The judges were not kings.

Why pick the time of the kings? There was more time when they didn't have a king. 

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Ancient Israel was a theocracy (Ex. 19:6; Jdgs. 3:9). 

At times.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Modern Israel is none of these things. 

It doesn't have to be.

It just needs Jews and the restoration of military control over the city Lk 20:20-24, 24.

These other requirements, that you have mentioned, that you believe are necessary for Israel/Jerusalem to be restored are not supported by scripture, unless you have some. 

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Paul makes it quite clear: not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, nor or they all His children just because they are descended from Abraham (Rom. 9:6). Paul is speaking of God's people whose righteousness comes by faith but that reality - the reality that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel - is something that should be applied to anything and anyone claiming to be Israel and any teaching treating the modern geo-political nation-state bearing that name as a fulfillment of prophesy. 

It is not.

The unbelieving broken branches, if they believe are able to be grafted in Rom 11:23.

Do you say that the present day Jews in Israel cannot be grafted in again?

Do you say that the Jews in Israel who now believe in Jesus cannot be grafted back in?

How can all Israel be saved, when the fullness of the gentiles is come in, if there is no Israel, to be grafted back in? 

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

Now I do not know how to make it any clearer to you than that. Your teachers made enormous assumptions and you accepted those assumptions without critically examining the scriptural foundations of what they taught.

You don't know anything about me.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

You could not have possibly been "shown" modern Israel is prophetic Israel because IT IS NOT!!!

 It does not bear any resemblance to ancient covenant Israel of the Bible beyond it its name. 

This is now the fourth or fifth time I have posted this to you. It is NOT being engaged. Nothing I've posted has been engaged. It has been assumed I'm wrong without first engaging it. You keep changing the sub-topic. Stop it.

What I was "shown", is that the 7 times are not 7 years, but are closer to 2500 years. 

The seven times are the same time period as the statue in Dan 2,

Divided into two 3 1/2 times, the first is from Babylon until the scattering of 70 AD, and the second 3 1/2 times is from 70 AD  until 1967 when Jerusalem was restored.

I was not shown this by any person.

It came from Bible study and thinking about the time frames of prophecy.

 

On 1/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Josheb said:

You cannot have a fulfilling Jerusalem if you do not first have a fulfilling Israel. 

And you do not. 

No, but you do.

Israel was fulfilled in 1948, first.

Jerusalem came under control of Israel in 1967.

This is exactly your confirmation of what has happened in recent years,

Fulfilling one of the requirements that you yourself have set.