Tongues?

[Justin Adams]

Fakers, noisemakers and people we would not respect today made the 'canon'. Even Luther and Calvin had a hand in this if you CAREFULLY read historical accounts. They both hated the Jews.

There are three or four of these so-called 'canons'.

To me it is all non sequitur. A massive red herring and like Augustine and others to be taken with a grain of salt.. read Leviticus for that intimation.

God is God and in His Heaven. We on the other hand tend to grovel and beat each other over morsels of truth as if they were gold to a mouse.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Paul James]

18 hours ago, OneLight said:

Though I do believe the gifts are currently operating today, we have been told they will cease.  1 Corinthians 13:8-10

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Most reliable commentators state that tongues and prophecy will cease and vanish away when the church is resurrected and united with Christ in glory.  The point of the passage is that love is permanent while Spiritual gifts are temporary.  Paul is saying that love is the foundation for all service to and for God.  Without it there is nothing.  He says in verse 1 of 1 Corinthians 13 that even if he is the most eloquent speaker in heaven and earth, if he doesn't have the foundation of love, he is just a useless noise.   He is alluding to the Corinthians being right up there with their spiritual gifts, but coming in behind with love.  Use the spiritual gifts by all means, but ensure that they are used on the basis of loving God and the brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Paul James]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:38 AM, Buddy D. Mouse said:

So - many decades have gone by. I have been part of dozens of threads on Tongues and their alleged "ceasing". Not all Cessationists say that "the Perfect" was the finished Canon of Scripture, others have other goulash that they claim has happenned to cause the "ceasing" of tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge.

 

Act 2:39

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Paul had to deal with believers in the Thessalonian church who were teaching that the resurrection had already come.  So, already, even while Paul was still active in his ministry to the churches, there were professing Christian believers teaching all sorts of nonsense.  These days, Cessationism, based on the definition of just one solitary word in 1 Corinthians 13 is a modern example of such nonsense.

[Paul James]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:04 AM, enoob57 said:

I understand from where you began is always 1^st love stuff ... I started out in a nondenom 'American Sunday School Union church' and moved to Arkansas and joined a Southern Baptist church there, then to a Bible church now at a Independent Baptist Church here in Grove... I went to Citadel Bible College for 3.5 years and in all this everyone believed God and saw God answer prayer and performed miracles BUT we did not direct people to focus on the miracle but the love of God manifested in the answer to prayer... the reason being was the warning Jesus gave us here

Mark 13:21-23

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV

since our Lord has warned us not to look to signs and wonders... we do not and do not teach others to do so- why- isn't obvious? Why would we direct people to know God is real through the very thing God has warned us the devil will use... I have seen miracles done on myself but do not lead focus upon this for the above reason... plus all of this 1^st creation will be forgotten so why build upon that which will not continue or be remembered? The s/Spiritual walk is just that 'not of this world' so when we draw the world we are in into the Spiritual we confuse the very principle of faith
 

Heb 11:1

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
KJV
 

Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV

In this simple outlay God directs our hearts toward the promises in His Word of things not seen nor even can be imagined now

1 Cor 2:9-11

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
KJV

we are to separate ourselves from this world and the things within it because they carry no eternal value and God has demonstrated it to us by burning it all up and removing all memory of such moving into the eternal state

Rev 21:4-5

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
KJV
So when we direct anything to focus upon the thing that will cease an not be remembered we are in fact failing in the faith God has appointed unto us...

 

No I understand you completely loved one... and are bonded by The s/Spiritual love of God toward His eternal keeping as family   I hope you understand my heart a little better in this as I could never deny the power of God in anything but yearns to uphold His Word He has given to us -for this alone is seen by God as love returning to Him
 

John 14:15 ESV 

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 John 5:3 ESV 

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

John 15:10 ESV

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

John 14:21 ESV 

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

John 3:16 ESV 

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 10:5 ESV

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

Matthew 21:28-31 ESV 

“What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.

1 John 5:1-3 ESV 

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 4:20 ESV

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 4:8 ESV 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 3:18 ESV 

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

1 Peter 2:21 ESV 

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Me too you Sis.... 

The issue is not the signs and wonders in themselves, but who is being glorified.   The Scripture says that the Holy Spirit will always glorify Christ in what He does, including the signs and wonders.  But if the signs and wonders draw people away from Christ to someone else, then we can safely assume that the signs and wonders do not originate with the Holy Spirit, but are activated by another spirit.  We see a lot of this with the "big-name" ministries who claim signs and wonders in their services.  Sick and disabled people flock to these services in their thousands in the hope of being healed, with the belief that if they are in the presence of the great evangelist (Benny Hinn is an example), they will be healed.  What they are doing in effect is to replace Jesus with Benny Hinn.  Jesus doesn't need a "big-name" healing evangelist to heal people, but He will use anyone who is bold and courageous enough to go in harm's way to preach the Gospel to the unsaved and needs the power of the Holy Spirit to back up his preaching.  That's what happened during the ministries of Peter and Paul.  Neither of these men used their own names to speak the word of  faith to sick people and see the healed.  They invoked the name of Jesus, because they knew that only He could achieve the desired outcome.  Also, they used that Name only when they knew that the Holy Spirit was directing them, otherwise they would have been using the Name in vain.  

In effect, healing evangelists like Benny Hinn and people like him are not claiming healing in the name of Jesus.  They are effectively doing it in their own name, and when they do use the name of Jesus it is nothing more than an incantation, taking His name in vain.

If we take the false prophets of the Old Testament as our example, we will see that they used their dreams and imaginations to encourage people to sin and follow the idols of the pagans around them, or if the people were already following idols, they prophesied that God would bless them anyway and bring them peace, but the true prophets of God clearly informed the people that they were being unfaithful to God and to forsake their idols with their associated sins, and return to the one, true living God.   As the true prophets of God were rejected, persecuted and killed, so we see in our day, those who stand up for Christ and His finished work on the Cross, are ridiculed, accused of having demons and thrown out of mega-church conferences conducted by the false ultra-charismatic "big-name" ministries of today.

True signs and wonders will always support the Gospel of Christ, and be the means of showing the unsaved that Jesus is really alive today and that they should embrace Him as Saviour.  False signs and wonders will always support a religious movement, a "big-name" personality or ministry and will draw people to that ministry instead of Christ.  The clue to falsehood is people saying, "If I can only get to [insert the big-name healing evangelist here]'s meeting, I know I'll be healed".  Why do multitudes of people flock to Lourdes?  Is it so that Jesus will heal them?  No.  It is in the hope that the Virgin Mary will heal them, or even just the waters themselves.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I have been trying to post this for 15 hours, but it just will not save. I have decided to try again at the current end of the thread (here) in case it will work better than on the previous page I have been trying to post on.

I am sorry that this might be the longest post in this thread, but I happen to believe, and this on Biblical grounds (as I understand scripture), not emotional ones, that gifts will cease. I think the Bible also tells us when (not the date, but the event). 

I think also, that a case can be made that the point of gifts, is for the edification (the building up) of Christ's church:

So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

If that if correct, even a little, then it seems plausible that the gifts should still be operational.

Some gifts (teacher, administration, hospitality, etc. could be in operation without the gifted even knowing they have that gift. Those functions can be performed without being gifted. I imagine, we are talking about what some people refer to as "sign gifts", the showy, unusual ones lie tongues and prophecy.

Have those things passed, should they, are they no longer needed? There are a lot of claims of there continued existence, even used in ways as they are in the Bible.

As an example, I know of a case (alleged) where a person was given a word in a tongue, that spoke of a man's future mission, that would have been far from his mind, going to Iran as a missionary. He had not interest in that, but doors opened while others closed, and he went, taking his wife and kids with him. Ir was "prophecied" that there would be much sorrow, followed by much joy.

It played out that his wife and children were killed there, and he started a sucessful Christian mission in Iran. Just coincidence? Could be! For brevity I won't go into details, and there are other stories like this, and speaking unlearned languages to present the gospel in foreign countries, you get the idea!

Are these made up, or are they real? Here is the thing, if just one of those is real, then the gifts persist. You would have to be all knowing, to now that things like this have never happened.

I had said that the time that tongues would cease was not given, but the event where they would cease has been. The passage is this one in 1 Cor:

8 As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Some people have maintained, that "the perfect" in verse 10, is a referrence to the completion of the canon of the Bible, the idea being that since we have the Bible, we know longer need the gifts to authenticate the apostles authority, or things along that line.

I don't think that works. We can do an exercise that makes that understanding unlikely, by just inserting that notion into the test to see if it seems to make any sense, observe:

When the Bble is complete, prophecies prophecies, they will pass away. When the Bble is complete, tongues will cease and knowledge will pass away. For now (before the completion of the Bible) we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the Bible is complete, the partial will pass away.

For now (before the Bible is finished) we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now (before the completion of the Bible) I know in part. When the Bible comes I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

So having read it with the assumption that the perfect, the completion of the Bible means that certain things will cease, let's ask. Have the stopped not that we have the Bible. Do we fully know, do we know as we have been known? I don't think we can make that case.

On the other hand, if the perfect coming, is Jesus when He returns, it makes perfect sense, that plus the face that we will see Him face to face, Bibles do not have faces!

One thing that some people also do, and it scares me, is say that tongues are demonically inspired. It is possible, that sometimes they are, I would grant that. However, if there is am occasion where tongues are inspired of God, and a person says it is of the Devil, then they are in essences calling to Holy Spirit, an evil spirit. Look at Matt 12:32 and compare that with what is said there!

For further reading, you might find the following verses and passages helpful:

Acts 8:18
Rom 1:11
Rom 11:29
Rom 12:6
1 Cor 1:5
1 Cor 1:7
1 Cor 2:13
1 Cor 2:14
1 Cor 9:11
1 Cor 12:1-11
1 Cor 12:27-31
1 Cor 13:2
1 Cor 14:1
1 Cor 14:12
1 Cor 14:22
1 Cor 14:32
Gal 3:2
Eph 4:7
1 Tim 4:14
2 Tim 1:6
Heb 2:4

 

 

[Paul James]

21 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The main portion of the movement charismania claims open canon and that leads to some awful stuff ...

I have never met a Pentecostal or Charismatic who believes in an open canon.  All the ones I know and have ever known believe in a closed canon - that God has said all He has to say in the written Scriptures, and anyone who claims to have a "revelation" has to show that God has already said it somewhere in the Scriptures.  Interestingly, John Calvin says that prophecy is the remarkable ability, God-given, to interpret Scripture to give special encouragement, exhortation, and comfort to other believers.   Someone else said that revelatory prophecy is nothing more than an updating of what God has already said in Scripture, but specifically applied to a particular personal or corporate issue.  These, to me, are more valid than someone coming out of left field with verbal garbage that has not relation to written Scripture at all.

By the way, I heard that the Anglican church has canons.  They must be the "big guns" of that church!

[OneLight]

23 hours ago, Paul James said:

In other words you can't find anywhere where God has given a word to say when tongues and prophecy are going to cease.  And yet you have maintained that God's Word definitely says that tongues is not for today.  But now it seems that having faced that there are no words from God on the issue, other than 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 which fully support the spiritual gifts are available for the church (including tongues), you are now accepting that tongues can be used in churches as long as there are interpreters.   So, if that is so, have you the courage to stand up in your church and say that they should not forbid the speaking out of tongues along with interpretation if the Holy Spirit moved people that way?

You are correct when you say that private tongues are private between the believer and God, and therefore way out of range of any criticism or inference that the tongues being spoken in private is any other than a language that God fully understands.

I can fully understand that you or your church would not want to have the type of tongues observed through video clips taken from Bethel, Hillsong, Kenny Copeland meetings, or other environments where tongues is spoken publicly in an uncontrolled and uninterpreted manner.   Tongues (or any other manifestation) plus no self-control equals falsehood, because self-control is an essential attribute of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

4 hours ago, Paul James said:

Most reliable commentators state that tongues and prophecy will cease and vanish away when the church is resurrected and united with Christ in glory.  The point of the passage is that love is permanent while Spiritual gifts are temporary.  Paul is saying that love is the foundation for all service to and for God.  Without it there is nothing.  He says in verse 1 of 1 Corinthians 13 that even if he is the most eloquent speaker in heaven and earth, if he doesn't have the foundation of love, he is just a useless noise.   He is alluding to the Corinthians being right up there with their spiritual gifts, but coming in behind with love.  Use the spiritual gifts by all means, but ensure that they are used on the basis of loving God and the brothers and sisters in Christ.

I posted 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 only because I thought you claimed tongues and prophecy ceasing is not in the scripture, when it is plainly in scripture.  I was wrong as you said you will not find any time line to them stopping in scripture and you were correct.  I also agree that once we are with Christ we will no longer need the gifts as we will be with Him.

[DeighAnn]

Is there scripture where the 'tongues' being spoken was not someones  actual language?

1  Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers 1085  kinds of tongues 1100  to another the interpretation of tongues:

1085 genos
genos: family, offspring
Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Definition: family, offspring
Usage: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.

 1100 glossa
glóssa: the tongue, a language

Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

HELPS Word-studies

1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]

biblehub


I can only say the 'gift' of being able to speak another language is nothing other than that A GIFT. 

I can not, no matter how hard or what method or system (not trying Babel though)  or hours or EVEN BEING IN THAT COUNTRY, learn another language.  Not past Hello, Goodbye

If this is all a repeat, please forgive  D

[Buddy D. Mouse]

DeighAnn asked "Is there scripture where the 'tongues' being spoken was not someones actual language?"

Do you mean was it always HUMAN languages which were spoken? I dunno. Paul writes "though I speak with the tongues of men and OF ANGELS" and some say that is hyperbole - but that doesn't mean ANGELIC LANGUAGES are ruled out.

TONGUES OF ANGELS are a biblical reference.

[DeighAnn]

30 minutes ago, Buddy D. Mouse said:

DeighAnn asked "Is there scripture where the 'tongues' being spoken was not someones actual language?"

Do you mean was it always HUMAN languages which were spoken? I dunno. Paul writes "though I speak with the tongues of men and OF ANGELS" and some say that is hyperbole - but that doesn't mean ANGELIC LANGUAGES are ruled out.

TONGUES OF ANGELS are a biblical reference.

Yes, and some would think (I take that back, I, myself, would think that was just another reference to 'we will be equal to angels')  but angels can be from heaven messengers and they can be human ones.  Angels are called men and men are called angels.  We eat the same food.  They are not 'earthy' flesh we will not be 'earthy' flesh either.  Christ is returning with Angels Christ is returning with Saints.  John was talking to an angel who was brethren to the prophets and said he was just another fellow servant.  

There is lots more but it just gets everyone mad so I will stop here. 

I figure if 'it was written' it would be easy to find and someone would.  So far it looks like many miss what we are told about the cloven tongue vs speaking in tongues.  God knows he confounded the languages and He wanted his words given to the world.  So some can speak many other languages, some can hear and repeat.  I can do neither, so I understand what a gift that truly is.    But God is not the author of confusion.  What we hear we are to speak.  Nothing is done in secret.  Are there some people who find themselves conversing with God in a different way?  It would seem so and who am I to judge.  God bless them if they do God help them if they don't.  Again thank you for reaching out.  I hope I didn't say too much.  D