Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[abcdef]

15 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

I do agree that Jesus showed himself to Paul in Acts 9 and that nobody could destroy the temples against the will of God.  However, this does not mean that Jesus was present on the earth when the Romans destroyed the temple.  In the Old Testament, God uses many different tools to fulfill His will.  For example, He used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the first temple.  He used the Egyptians and the slavery of the Jews to show His power to redeem.  He used the men of Ai to punish the Jews and get them to root out the evil in their ranks.  Jesus does not have to be present in order for God's will to be fulfilled.

You asked me to clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming".

There are only 2 resurrection comings 1 Cor 15:23-28. Jesus the first and then for those who are His.

All other "comings", appearances, presence, are not resurrections. 

 

15 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

 

 

I agree that Jesus does not come at the Battle of Armageddon and that his return is after the battle is over.  However, per Daniel, the Antichrist will conquer Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination and this occurs about 3.5 years before the Battle of Armageddon.

This battle of Armageddon, takes place just before the planet is destroyed at the 7th vial, after Jerusalem falls.

-----------

The time line of the vials is set in Rev 15:1 & 8.

 

V 1, "is filled up the wrath of God." The statement is saying that there will be no more wrath after the 7th vial, no more wrath on the beast for sure.

But as I agree with you, this means that all of the things related to the beast and wrath towards the beast, that are shown AFTER this passage, must take place BEFORE the 7th vial end of the time line.

That is, if the 7th vial is the end of wrath on the beast, then the passages that speak of the beast after the 7th vial, can only be in a parallel time line to the vials.

This supports your position that some of the texts of the Revelation are in parallel time lines.

 

V 8, "No man was able to enter into the temple". The temple that he is referring to is the temple of God in heaven, the eternal temple after this planet flies away Rev 20:11.

This would mean that it was a time after Jesus was revealed and we are with Him there. Then men will enter the temple of God.

 

These 2 verses seem to show that the 7th vial is the end of the material world. This would invite an investigation into the idea that the Revelation is repeating time lines, as you perhaps believe.

Identifying the time lines that are parallel expands the perception of the prophecies.

  

15 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

 

The planet cannot be destroyed at this time because we still have to go through the Millennial Kingdom where the Jews rule on the earth for 1000 years.

Ha ha, now you are speculating that there is a planet after the 7th vial.

You say that the millennium period is after the 7th vial?

I will stay with your theory that the time lines run parallel and that the mill period runs parallel with the vials.

---

Understand that the mill period is showing the time of the new covenant, the Pentecost gospel kingdom/church period, which is now. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

 

You are correct that Jesus does return to rapture His Church just before the seventh vial.  However, based on other comments you made, I think that you are falling into the trap of believing that all the events in Revelation will occur in time in the exact same order that they are written in the book.  Please go back and read my earlier posts where I show that this cannot possibly be true because it would require the events of the Great Tribulation to last for a minimum of 11 years and most likely 20 or 30 years.  Additionally, if the events were to occur chronologically, this would be the only prophetic book in the entire Bible that followed this pattern.

 

If you believe that Jesus comes just before the 7th vial,

Then, if there are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28,

This would be showing Jesus coming for the kingdom, those who are His, at His second coming for salvation Heb 9:28.

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

With regard to proof that the events are not chronological, you just need to look at how many times the same events are mentioned.  For example, the rapture is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, 7:9 - 17, 11:11 - 12, and 18:4 - 5.  Similarly, the Wrath of God is mentioned in Revelation 4:5, 8:1 - 5, 11:19, 11:13, 14:1 - 2, 16:17 - 21, and 19:6.  Note that the Wrath is specified seven times because there are seven different ways that God tells the story of the last days to John so he can write it down for us.

Let's unpack Rev. 4:1 since you said it mentions the rapture. Does it really, using good exegesis?

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

After these things: John used this or a very similar phrase 6 times in Revelation, to show a transition in the vision he was watching: in other words, the vision changed directions or focus. Many people want to say this means "after the church age." How can it mean that since JOHN was the next thing mentioned? John was caught up around 95 AD. Therefore, "after these things" CANNOT mean, after the church age.

After these things I looked,  Proof this is about John, not the church. 

behold, a door standing open in heaven.  It seems John SAW this door, but IN THE VISION.

And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet  John SAW a door, and HEARD a voice.

speaking with me, saying, “Come up here,  This voice was speaking to JOHN, and calling Him up to heaven. 

and I will show you things which must take place after this.”  WHY was John called up? So God could show him some future. 

As you can see, it is only MYTH this is about the rapture of the church. 

Rev. 7:9 - 17  Indeed, these verses are about the raptured church, but they are not "the rapture." they show the affects of the rapture: the church seen in heaven. This is perfect chronology: the rapture happens, and soon after the church is seen in heaven. It is what one would expect. 

Rev. 11:11 - 12 This is the resurrection of the Two witnesses (2 men) NOT the church. 

Rev 18:4 - 5  This is LONG after the rapture, near the end of the 70th week, just before Armageddon. Just before the Beast armies will surround Jerusalem: God is warning JEWS and Hebrews to get out of the city. It will be taken and people captured and sold into slavery.

See how good exegesis causes problems to disappear? The rapture is simply not shown anywhere in Revelation. Only the church shown in heaven AFTER the rapture. 

[John n Claudia]

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Let's unpack Rev. 4:1 since you said it mentions the rapture. Does it really, using good exegesis?

iamlamad,

As I said in my last post to you, your chronology creates more questions than answers.  Since confusion often arises when people have different definitions for the same terms, why don't we start over by making sure that we have common definitions.

Here are my definitions:

The Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles in order for them to be purified as through fire so they can show that they are worthy.  This is the last 1260 days as prophesied by Daniel which start 30 days after the Abomination and continue until Jesus (the Messiah) returns to save His people.

The Wrath of God is the time period when Jesus punishes those who have been persecuting His people, saving both the Jews and the Church.  During this time, Jesus also fulfills the other promises by rapturing the Church, reuniting the twelve tribes of  Israel and setting up the Jews as the ruling nation on the earth.  This starts with the second coming of Christ and ends with the the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom ruled by the prince described in Ezekiel. 

How do you define the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God?

Until we get on the same page with our definitions, any further discussion is pointless.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

With regard to proof that the events are not chronological, you just need to look at how many times the same events are mentioned.  For example, the rapture is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, 7:9 - 17, 11:11 - 12, and 18:4 - 5.  Similarly, the Wrath of God is mentioned in Revelation 4:5, 8:1 - 5, 11:19, 11:13, 14:1 - 2, 16:17 - 21, and 19:6.  Note that the Wrath is specified seven times because there are seven different ways that God tells the story of the last days to John so he can write it down for us.

Wrath: Learn a lesson from Greek Aorist tense verbs: John used these almost exclusively in Revelation. (Occasionally he used present and future tense.)
A Greek lexicon says of Aorist tense verbs: NOT inflected to show tense."  In English what does it mean to put an A in front of a word? A-millennialist means they believe in NO millennium. Or Atheist, opposite of a theist.  Apparently "rist" in Greek is tense or timing, so a-orist means no timing.

What does this mean? When we read "the Day of His wrath is come," the IS come is translated from an Aorist verb that shows no timing. In other words, we cannot write it accurately in English. We could write "had come," but that shows timing or tense. We could write, "will come" but again that shows timing or tense. 

Because of this, it is difficult to learn timing of any kind in Revelation UNLESS we just the "first mention."  The 6th seal is the first mention of wrath in Revelation. I think we can say that wrath starts right there. Some say the 6th seal is the warning and wrath starts at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. I would not argue. I think the earthquake (prophesied in Isaiah 2) proves that wrath starts right here at the 6th seal.  

Rev. 4:5  ⁵ And from the throne proceeded lightnings, ^[c]thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the^[d] seven Spirits of God.

Sorry, no wrath here. 

Rev. 8:1-5  Wrath not mentioned, but here it is the DAY of His wrath, so God will have wrath from the 6th seal to Armageddon.

Rev. 11:13  It is the earthquake when the Two witnesses are caught up. It is at the end of the week, and God is still angry, those wrath is not mentioned. 

Rev. 11:19  "your wrath is come." It is the same Greek Aorist verb used at the 6th seal, and with the same meaning: "wrath" with no timing information. However, we know wrath started previously and will continue. this verse just confirms God is still angry. 

Rev. 14:1-2  No wrath here. The 144,000 just caught up. 

Rev. 16:17-21  Wrath not mentioned, but it is the final vial and they are FILLED with His wrath. 

Rev. 19:6  No wrath here. Only God is reigning. 

there are seven different ways that God tells the story of the last days  this is human imagination.  

The truth, as proven by a good understanding of these verses is that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, and builds to the vials that are filled with His wrath.  No backpeddling, no retelling, just good Chronology. 

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

If you cannot accept the argument that Revelation can do this because every other prophetical book does this, then perhaps you can accept that putting all these chapters chronologically would require a time span of over 11 years with just the events we are told will have a specific duration.  Adding in all the other events will extend this time significantly.  How can you explain an end time tribulation spanning 20 or 30 years?

Just because other books do is NOT PROOF that Revelation does. It has to be proven in Revelation. Many have tried, many have failed. 

What you are missing:  When John mentions the 42 months, and in the next verse 1260 days, and the next chapter 1260 days and 3.5 "times" then in chapter 13 another 42 months, these are all COUNTDOWNS to the end. They run PARALLEL. However, the starting points are staggered so John can show them in the order that start. For example, the 1260 days of testifying will start a few days before the 1260 days of fleeing. The 42 months of trampling will start some unknown number of days before the 42 months of authority. 

In other words, we don't ADD these times: we understand the text: that these all run concurrently in the background during chapters 14, 15, and 16. 

Note, a beginning might imagine they are to be added, but when someone has read the book several times, I don't think so. I have never met anyone that things the 42 months of trampling is over in verse 3, or the 1260 days of testifying is over in verse 4. People generally understand the verse of mention is only the START of the countdown to the end.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

If you do not accept either of these two arguments, I am not sure what argument you would accept and there is no point in my pointing out scripture that you chose to ignore.

God forbid that we should ignore any part of this book, even one word.  What God does expect is that we understand each verse in context. 

So far, you have shown in proof at all that John has missed it in chronology. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Statement by Lamad: Wrath and GT come at the same time:  Now this is indeed a bold statement.  Why do you think that the time the gentiles will trample the temple and punish the Jews will be the exact same time that God is pouring out the Wrath of God on the Gentiles?  Will it really take God 20 or 30 years to defeat an army of people?

Again we must LOCATE wrath; that is God's wrath: it starts before the week and continues on through the ENTIRE week. There is no part of the week (chapters 8 to 16) that is without God's wrath. Therefore FOR CERTAIN the last half of the week comes with God's wrath. The vials will come in the last half and they are FILLED with His wrath. 

So start to finish, the 42 months of trampling will be during God's wrath. Most of this 42 months will be in the last half of the week.  I think this because I know God's wrath covers the entire week. OF COURSE He has wrath during the DAY of His wrath. Forget 20 or 30 years: that is myth. The 70th week is 7 years. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

To be clear, you are saying that God's wrath starts with the sixth seal.  According to the text then, we need to go through the seventh seal, followed by all seven trumpets, the woman clothed in the sun, and the first six bowls.  It is only after all of this stuff happens that Jesus is able to return at the seventh bowl.  The reason I am saying this is that Revelation 16:15 tells us that Jesus has still not returned and the only thing left after this is the seventh bowl.

Yes, that is clear: when the DAY of His wrath starts, His wrath starts. But God will deliver us from His wrath, so the rapture comes a MOMENT before the 6th seal. The 6th seal earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction:" we are caught up just as the ground begins to shake. (Paul said He will set no appointments for us with His wrath: the appointments for for those left behind. )

Always remember, it is impossible to force TWO MORE COMINGS into one and fit every end time verse: it just does not work. Jesus will come TWO more times, first FOR His bride, then later WITH His bride. Paul shows us His NEXT coming in 1 thes 4. John shows us His last coming in Rev. 19. Jesus also talked about His Armageddon coming in the gospels. the ONLY time He even hinted at His coming for the church is in John 14: He went to build homes for us, and will come and get us and take us to the homes He has prepared. 

Next, NO RETURN at the 7th bowl. Go back and read it: STUFF happens between the 7th bowl and His coming in Rev. 19. NO ONE will know the day of His coming: if He came on the 7th bowl, ALL would know the day.  16:15 is a WARNING that at that point in time, His coming will be SOON (but still unknown.)  One event that is between is the marriage and supper. 

[John n Claudia]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

You asked me to clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming".

There are only 2 resurrection comings 1 Cor 15:23-28. Jesus the first and then for those who are His.

All other "comings", appearances, presence, are not resurrections. 

abcdef,

If I understand this correctly, here are the definitions:

A "resurrection coming" is any time that Jesus came to earth and at least one person who had died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body.

A "coming" is any time that Jesus came to Earth, but nobody who died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body.

 

If this is correct, there are two "resurrection comings".  The first was when Jesus was resurrected 2000 years ago and the second will be when He comes to rapture His Church.  The resurrection for the Great White Throne judgement is not a "resurrection coming" even though some people who are resurrected at that time will receive a glorified body because Jesus does not come to the earth, but rather all the people who were resurrected at this time go to the throne room for judgement.

It also means that when Jesus knocked Saul/Paul off his horse on the way to Damascus is an example of a coming because nobody was resurrected and received a glorified body.

 

Is this correct?

 

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

This battle of Armageddon, takes place just before the planet is destroyed at the 7th vial, after Jerusalem falls.

I have two questions regarding this:

Why do you say that the planet is destroyed at the seventh vial?

When will the Millennial Kingdom occur?  This is the promise to the Jews that they will rule and reign on the earth for 1000 years.

 

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

That is, if the 7th vial is the end of wrath on the beast, then the passages that speak of the beast after the 7th vial, can only be in a parallel time line to the vials.

This supports your position that some of the texts of the Revelation are in parallel time lines.

 

V 8, "No man was able to enter into the temple". The temple that he is referring to is the temple of God in heaven, the eternal temple after this planet flies away Rev 20:11.

This would mean that it was a time after Jesus was revealed and we are with Him there. Then men will enter the temple of God.

 

These 2 verses seem to show that the 7th vial is the end of the material world. This would invite an investigation into the idea that the Revelation is repeating time lines, as you perhaps believe.

Identifying the time lines that are parallel expands the perception of the prophecies.

It is good to realize that there are multiple timelines.  Just as I was encouraged a while back, I would also like to encourage you to examine all of your assumptions when dealing with the Book of Revelation.  The first question I would like to ask you regarding this is:

Since there are multiple timelines, is there any reason to assume that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials form a single timeline or is it possible that these are three separate timelines?

I urge you to think and pray about this and let the Holy Spirit guide you as you search the scriptures.  Look for similar events in these series, especially with regard to the seventh of each series and see what you can discover.  Do not feel like you have to answer, just be led by the Spirit and honestly examine the scriptures so our Father can lead you.

 

With regard to your mention of verse 8, I am assuming that you are referring to Revelation 15:8 because there is no temple in 16:8 or 20:8.  If this is true, then this is saying that no one can enter the temple in heaven until all seven vials are poured out.

I do think that we agree that chapters 18 and 19 regarding the angel with authority give another timeline that is parallel to the timeline of the vials.  In that case, would you agree that the sounds and events in 19:6 are somewhat similar to the sounds and events in 16:18 so these could be referring to the same event in different timelines, from different perspectives?  If so, would you accept that 20:2 describes an event that will occur after the seventh vial, and this tells us that Satan will be chained up for 1000 years with the earth still hanging around after the seventh vial has been poured?

Part of the reason that I feel confident in my interpretation is that I have looked for places like this, drawing connections between timelines that give greater insight into the events described.

[John n Claudia]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Because of this, it is difficult to learn timing of any kind in Revelation UNLESS we just the "first mention."

iamlamad,

I want to make sure that I really understand what you are saying, so I apologize if I have this read this incorrectly and ask you to correct my understanding.

Is this your definition of the Wrath of God?

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.  This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority.  Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text.

 

Unfortunately, I did not see where you defined the Great Tribulation.  After correcting my understanding of the Wrath of God, could you define the Great Tribulation so that I can understand that as well?