Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[John n Claudia]

Shilohsfoal,

I am not saying that I currently know the exact day and time when the Battle of Armageddon will occur or when Jesus will return. 

I am instead saying that those who are listening to our Savior's voice will be able to tell you the exact day when they see the Abomination as spoken of in Daniel.  I am also saying that the people who are not listening to our Savior's voice will know when the Battle of Armageddon will occur at least a few weeks or months before it occurs because they will see the armies gathering to fight that battle.  Jesus also assured us that the unbelievers will not know when He will return even an hour before he does come back.  Since "everybody" today associates the Battle of Armageddon with the return of Jesus, this means that if Jesus were to return at that battle, "everybody" would know when He is going to return long before He actually does.

Does this better explain what I am saying?

[luigi]

15 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Luigi,

In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul says that he does not know if the person was caught up bodily or spiritually.  This indicates that either interpretation could be correct and that Paul believed that at some point in time, people would be bodily "caught up".

 

 

Correct that the individual could have been caught up physically. If so, however, he was then returned to the earth to relate his data to Paul.

[luigi]

15 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Luigi,

 

Revelation 12 tells the story of events of the last days from the perspective of the Jewish nation.  The woman clothed in the sun is the Jews and the child is Jesus.  At the end of His earthly ministry, we see Jesus ascending into Heaven in Acts 1:9, and this is what is being described in Revelation 12:5.  With regard to revelation 12:17, the dragon is not warring with the child that was caught up to heaven.  The text says that the dragon is making war on the rest of, or, the other children of the woman.

This means that one of these events is a bodily ascension and both of these support the idea of a bodily ascension.  Since both of these support a bodily ascension, it seems likely that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 should also support a bodily ascension.

 

The events in Revelation chapters 4 through 22 are prophesy about the future after 95 AD when John of Patmos scribed the book of Revelation. The man child caught up to God in heaven is then not a historical accounting of Jesus' crucifixion and ascension some circa 60 years earlier. The man child in Revelation 12 are the remnant saints whom the woman in travail in Micah 5 brings forth, at which time the Lord will then commence to reign on the earth. The remnant saints on the earth who are caught up spiritually to God will therefore be at war with the dragon and those who love beasts image, his false delusion, in place of the truth.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Revelation 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[John n Claudia]

25 minutes ago, luigi said:

The events in Revelation chapters 4 through 22 are prophesy about the future after 95 AD when John of Patmos scribed the book of Revelation. The man child caught up to God in heaven is then not a historical accounting of Jesus' crucifixion and ascension some circa 60 years earlier. The man child in Revelation 12 are the remnant saints whom the woman in travail in Micah 5 brings forth, at which time the Lord will then commence to reign on the earth. The remnant saints on the earth who are caught up spiritually to God will therefore be at war with the dragon and those who love beasts image, his false delusion, in place of the truth.

Luigi,

While Revelation 1:1 says that the revelation was given so that Jesus could show us what must happen very soon, this does not mean that everything written in Revelation must occur in John's future at the time he wrote the book.  When someone wants to convey what they think will happen in the future, they often start by talking about the past in order to set the stage and make clear what they are talking about.

Have you watched the movie "The Star of Bethlehem"?  This may seem a little off-topic, but I would encourage you to watch this movie.  Close to the end, they go over the signs in the sky that preceded Jesus' birth 2000 years ago.  Those signs exactly line up with what John described in Revelation 12:1.

Also, just as Ezekiel has many prophesies about the last days and his prophecies are not in chronological order, the same is true of Revelation.  For example, Ezekiel 36 tells the story of the last years before Jesus returns, while Ezekiel 37 tells the story of the Jews returning to the Holy land in 1948, Ezekiel 38 tells the story of the end of the Millennial Kingdom and Ezekiel 39 goes back to the last years before Jesus returns.

Because the Book of Revelation is a prophetical book, we cannot assume that the events described in the book will happen chronologically in the exact order in which they were written.  In my studies, I have found seven different timelines of events that will happen.  Within each timeline, the events are chronological, but each timeline is a story unto itself and it is often difficult to determine when the events in the different timelines will occur relative to each other.

With regard to the woman in travail in Micah 5:3, this is the exact verse that was brought to Herod and the Magi at the birth of Jesus to tell them that Jesus was going to be born in Bethlehem.  This verse supports the interpretation of Revelation 12:2 as being the birth of Jesus. 

Can you clarify what you mean by "the remnant saints"?  As far as I know, there are only three groups of people in the Bible, the Jews, the Church and the Gentiles.  Since these are saints, I am assuming that these are either Jews or in the Church, but I do not like making assumptions and would like to make sure I understand what you mean.

In order to find any Christians in the story of the woman clothed in the sun, you need to look at Revelation 12:17 which you quoted above.  other than that, the entire story from chapters 12 through 14 tell the story of the last days from the perspective of the Jews and covers the time period from the birth of Jesus until the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

Luigi,

While Revelation 1:1 says that the revelation was given so that Jesus could show us what must happen very soon, this does not mean that everything written in Revelation must occur in John's future at the time he wrote the book.  When someone wants to convey what they think will happen in the future, they often start by talking about the past in order to set the stage and make clear what they are talking about.

 

 

I believe the Lord telling John in Revelation 4:1 that the things John will be shown in chapters 4 through 22 all regard the hereafter, after 95 AD. And yes, Revelation chapters 1 through 3 regard the then present in the first century, but also relevant with instructions for us today.

[luigi]

9 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

Luigi,

 

Have you watched the movie "The Star of Bethlehem"?  This may seem a little off-topic, but I would encourage you to watch this movie.  Close to the end, they go over the signs in the sky that preceded Jesus' birth 2000 years ago.  Those signs exactly line up with what John described in Revelation 12:1.

 

 

Other signs in the sky than the star that guided the wise men to Bethlehem is unfounded conjecture. But even if there were other signs in the sky, I would still prefer to believe the written Word which informs us that the information shown John in Revelation chapters 4 through 22 relate to the hereafter, and therefore do not contain a historical account of the Lord's ascension some circa 60 years earlier.

[luigi]

14 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

Luigi,

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "the remnant saints"?  As far as I know, there are only three groups of people in the Bible, the Jews, the Church and the Gentiles.  Since these are saints, I am assuming that these are either Jews or in the Church, but I do not like making assumptions and would like to make sure I understand what you mean.

 

 

There are only two groups, those who believe in the true gospel of Christ to love, and those who don't. During the tribulation, many who claim to believe in Christ will fall away, rather than being killed as depicted in the Olivet discourse. There will, however, be a remnant of saints who come through the GT with their skins. The living remnant will not precede those killed in being caught up.

Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

[luigi]

23 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

 

In order to find any Christians in the story of the woman clothed in the sun, you need to look at Revelation 12:17 which you quoted above.  other than that, the entire story from chapters 12 through 14 tell the story of the last days from the perspective of the Jews and covers the time period from the birth of Jesus until the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying by claiming chapters 12 through 14 of the last days being from the perspective of the Jews. I think you are saying that a rapture will have occurred for Christians, and that only the unbelieving Jews are left in the land of Israel. 

Do you know what a thief does? A thief takes something that you possess. When the Lord returns like a thief at the end of the tribulation period, He will remove from the faithless beast's worshippers Himself and His illumination, which all mankind currently possess. The faithless beast's worshippers will then be in gross darkness throughout the world, while the faithful in the true gospel of love will be greatly illumined. The faithless who will be in gross darkness throughout the world will then need to go to the greatly illumined for guidance.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Shilohsfoal,

I am not saying that I currently know the exact day and time when the Battle of Armageddon will occur or when Jesus will return. 

I am instead saying that those who are listening to our Savior's voice will be able to tell you the exact day when they see the Abomination as spoken of in Daniel.  I am also saying that the people who are not listening to our Savior's voice will know when the Battle of Armageddon will occur at least a few weeks or months before it occurs because they will see the armies gathering to fight that battle.  Jesus also assured us that the unbelievers will not know when He will return even an hour before he does come back.  Since "everybody" today associates the Battle of Armageddon with the return of Jesus, this means that if Jesus were to return at that battle, "everybody" would know when He is going to return long before He actually does.

Does this better explain what I am saying?

And how about the unbelievers in Israel? Will they know Jesus will return at the war of Armegeddon since they don't believe Jesus will even return? When the unbelieving jews see the muslim armies gather for war, will they know if they believed in Jesus they would be saved Insted of being destroyed? 

Those who reject Christ don't even believe in a war of Armegeddon because they reject the revelation of Jesus Christ. 

I bet half of the people in Israel will believe God will destroy those armies confusing them with Ezekiels prophecy of Gog. 

Tell me this. Do you believe the king of the north understands his armed forces based in Israel will be killed by the beast and that this is the reason he places the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem? There are so many things people don't understand its hard for them to predict the timing. 

But one thing is certain., we will know 1290 days before our armed forces use the abomination that causes desolation. Not everyone knows that. Very few people know that. 

 

[John n Claudia]

Luigi,

 

Thank you for clarifying your position.  It is true that Paul tells us that there is no more Jew or Greek, but we are all one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).  However, Paul is talking to the church in Galatia, so he is talking to Christians.  Within the Church, it is true that there is no more Jew or Greek and we are all one people in Christ.  However, this does not mean that the Jews outside the Church ceased to exist for God.  Paul also tells us that just as the Church was grafted in, the Jews will be re-grafted back in (Romans 11:11 - 24).  God has made promises to the Jews and different promises to the Church and He will keep all of His promises to each group.

32 minutes ago, luigi said:

During the tribulation, many who claim to believe in Christ will fall away, rather than being killed as depicted in the Olivet discourse. There will, however, be a remnant of saints who come through the GT with their skins. The living remnant will not precede those killed in being caught up.

 

Thank you for clarifying this.  A while back, I was encouraged to examine all of my assumptions.  It took a long time, but I did this and as a result of my studies under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, I have rejected just about every assumption I had when I started the examination.  This is why I am firmly convinced that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon.  There is not just the negative argument presented in this thread, but God also showed me a positive argument through scriptures that also shows this must be true.

One of the earliest assumption I had to reject was that of a pre-tribulation rapture.  From our other interactions, I believe that you are very much being led by the Holy Spirit.  I know that there are many, many arguments that seem to support a pre-tribulation rapture and that virtually every church pushes this belief.  However, I would very much like to encourage you to search the scriptures and examine this belief. 

Ask the Holy Spirit to show you what is the truth and then trust Him to do the revealing.  Ask if there will be multiple raptures for different groups of people of if there will only be one rapture for the one church that Jesus founded.  Ask if it makes sense that God would protect the Church from all pain and suffering during the last few years when it has gone through so much pain and suffering through the preceding 2000 years.  Ask if it makes sense that God would remove His witness to the World at the time that it needs the witness the most.  Ask if it makes sense that the Church will return to rule and reign with Christ on the Earth during the Millennial Kingdom when God promised that the Jews would rule and reign on the Earth and that the Church would have mansions in the city of New Jerusalem.

I am confident that after you have finished this honest examination, you will be led to the Truth.