The Antichrist's seven year covenant with many

[iamlamad]

55 minutes ago, luigi said:

This is why the saints are to be patient when they will be persecuted and executed during the reign of the beast.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Would this be all the saints - every one? Why would ANYONE imagine God would allow His own bride to be murdered? I don't think we serve this kind of God. Would a loving human husband "prove" his fiance to this extent? NO! Yet people imagine God would. Even when we read:

1 Thes. 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

This is His promise: to deliver us. Why then to SO MANY doubt Him? He has made a way of escape, yet it seems so many want to thumb their nose (so to speak) at his escape plan. I will never understand it. I am TAKING His plan of escape! 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

You are correct. It looks like in Daniel 11:33 that many of the saints who are overcome and worn out by the beasts mouth is during the 42 month reign of the beast, while the two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast, which puts to an end the beasts 42 month reign.

Most experts think that this verse in Daniel 11 is about Antiochus. That that chapter does not get to "the end" and to the Beast of Rev. 13 until verse 36. 

The beast's 42 months ends ONLY when Jesus returns and captures him. 

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Would this be all the saints - every one? Why would ANYONE imagine God would allow His own bride to be murdered? I don't think we serve this kind of God. Would a loving human husband "prove" his fiance to this extent? NO! Yet people imagine God would. Even when we read:

1 Thes. 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

This is His promise: to deliver us. Why then to SO MANY doubt Him? He has made a way of escape, yet it seems so many want to thumb their nose (so to speak) at his escape plan. I will never understand it. I am TAKING His plan of escape! 

No, not all saints will be killed. There will be a remnant who come out with their skins. This is why the remnant living (with their skins) saints, will not precede those killed during the reign of the beast being caught up to the Lord first (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[luigi]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Most experts think that this verse in Daniel 11 is about Antiochus. That that chapter does not get to "the end" and to the Beast of Rev. 13 until verse 36. 

The beast's 42 months ends ONLY when Jesus returns and captures him. 

I see the abomination who makes desolate and removes the daily sacrifice in Daniel 11:31 being the same as the people of the prince in Daniel 9:26-27, who shall destroy the sanctuary, cause desolations, and ultimately putting to an end the human carnage sacrifice. As both these are then the same event, which occur during the seventieth week; the saints who are then killed in Daniel 11:33, is also during the seventieth week. Further corroboration appears in Daniel 12:4 & 8-9, where Daniel inquiring of the angel about the visions shown him in chapters 11 and 12, is told that these data were sealed until the end times to which they pertained, and at that time many people who would then be going around the world inquiring about these events, their knowledge and understanding what these matters pertained to would increase. Now are the end times, now these data are unsealed, with our understanding and knowledge about them increasing.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

[iamlamad]

On 9/2/2020 at 9:23 AM, luigi said:

I see the abomination who makes desolate and removes the daily sacrifice in Daniel 11:31 being the same as the people of the prince in Daniel 9:26-27, who shall destroy the sanctuary, cause desolations, and ultimately putting to an end the human carnage sacrifice. As both these are then the same event, which occur during the seventieth week; the saints who are then killed in Daniel 11:33, is also during the seventieth week. Further corroboration appears in Daniel 12:4 & 8-9, where Daniel inquiring of the angel about the visions shown him in chapters 11 and 12, is told that these data were sealed until the end times to which they pertained, and at that time many people who would then be going around the world inquiring about these events, their knowledge and understanding what these matters pertained to would increase. Now are the end times, now these data are unsealed, with our understanding and knowledge about them increasing.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Ships of Chittim.—On Chittim, see Genesis 10:4; comp. Numbers 24:24. The LXX. explain this of the Romans, referring to the story in Livy, xlv. 11.

Matthew Henry Commentary:  from ver. 21, to relate to Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a cruel and violent persecutor of the Jews. 

Barnes Notes:  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him - The word rendered Chittim - כתים kı̂ttı̂ym - according to Gesenius, properly means "Cyprians," so called from a celebrated Phoenician colony in the island of Cyprus. In a wider acceptation the name came to comprehend the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, especially the northern parts, and therefore stands for the islands and coasts of Greece and the AEgean Sea. See Gesenius, Lexicon, and compare Josephus, "Ant." b. i. ch. vi. 1. The Egyptian government had called in the aid of the Romans, and Antiochus, therefore, was threatened with a war with the Romans if he did not abandon his enterprise against Egypt. The reference in the passage before us is to the embassage which the Romans sent to Antiochus in Egypt, requiring him to desist from his enterprise against Egypt. "When he had arrived at Leusine, about four miles from Alexandria, he met Caius Popilins Laenas, Caius Decimius, and Caius Hostilius, ambassadors, whom the Roman Senate had sent to him at the earnest request of Ptolemy Physcon. They were instructed to assure Antiochus that he must leave the kingdom of Egypt and the island of Cyprus in peace, or expect a war with the Romans. When Antiochus said that he would lay the affair before his council, Popilius, the head of the legation, with his staff drew a circle about the king in the sand on which they stood, and exclaimed, 'Before you leave that circle, you must give me an answer which I can report to the Senate.' Antiochius was confounded, but on a little reflection, he said he would do whatever the Senate required."

J.F.B. commentary:  30. ships of Chittim—the Roman ambassadors arriving in Macedonian Grecian vessels (see on [1107]Jer 2:10). Chittim, properly Cyprian, so called from a Phœnician colony in Cyprus; then the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean in general.

grieved—humbled and dispirited through fear of Rome.

indignation against the holy covenant—Indignant that meantime God's worship had been restored at Jerusalem, he gives vent to his wrath at the check given him by Rome, on the Jews.

Matthew Poole's Commentary: The ships of Chittim shall come against him, i.e. the Romans out of Italy, and parts of the Archipelago, under them, shall come with force, and they shall vex and afflict him; for the Romans had harbours for their ships and galleys in Cilicia, Macedonia, and other parts of those coasts; whereby, after they had subdued Greece, they pursued Antiochus in Asia, and sent into Egypt to prevent his going into Alexandria. — Liv. 1. 45. This grieved and fretted him; for when he lingered and framed excuses, Popilius the Roman ambassador made a circle about him with his rod, commanding he should not stir thence till he gave him a positive present answer, by which, sore against his will, he was fain to pack away out of Egypt, and withdraw his garrisons and navy thence. This made his heart boil with rancour, which he spit out all against the Jews; 

Gill's Commentary:  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him,.... Ptolemy king of Egypt, and his brother, being come to an agreement, sent an embassy to the senate of Rome, to implore their help and assistance against Antiochus, who was preparing to besiege them in Alexandria; upon which they sent their ambassadors Caius Popilius Laenas, Caius Decimus, and Caius Hostilius, in ships from Macedonia (z), or Greece, to Antiochus, to require him to desist from making war upon Ptolemy, and that he quit the land of Egypt;

Geneva Study Bible:  That is, the Roman power will come against him: for P. Popilius the ambassador appointed him to depart in the Romans' name, which he obeyed, although with grief, and to avenge his rage he came against the people of God the second time.

Cambridge Study Bible: The allusion is to C. Popillius Laenas and the other Roman legates, who, as described above (p. 181), obliged Antiochus, when within sight of Alexandria, to withdraw his forces unconditionally from Egypt. 

Pulpit Commentary: The rendering is, "And the Romans shall come, and shall drive him out, and shall make him wroth, and he shall return and be enraged against the covenant of the holy, and shall do and return and plot against those on account of whom they left the covenant of the holy."

Adam Clarke Commentary: For the ships of Chittim shall come against him - Chittim is well known to mean the Roman empire. Antiochus, being now in full march to besiege Alexandria, and within seven miles of that city, heard that ships were arrived there from Rome, with legates from the senate. He went to salute them. They delivered to him the letters of the senate, in which he was commanded, on pain of the displeasure of the Roman people, to put an end to the war against his nephews. Antiochus said he would go and consult his friends; on which Popilius, one of the legates, took his staff, and instantly drew a circle round Antiochus on the sand where he stood, and commanded him not to pass that circle till he had given a definitive answer. Antiochus, intimidated, said, he would do whatever the senate enjoined; and in a few days after began his march, and returned to Syria.

 

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible  ships of Chittim — the Roman ambassadors arriving in Macedonian Grecian vessels (see on Jeremiah 2:10). Chittim, properly Cyprian, so called from a Phoenician colony in Cyprus; then the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean in general.

John Trapp Commentary: Publius Popilius, the Roman envoy, shall come in Italian or Grecian ships, and shall, in the name of the senate and people of Rome, command Antiochus to depart with his army out of Egypt, and that forthwith

Whedon's Commentary:  . There can be no doubt that the ships referred to here were those of the Romans connected with the expedition under the leadership of Caius Popilius Laenas, who was sent against Antiochus 168 B.C. and speedily pushed him back from Egypt in great humiliation 

Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable   The ships from Kittim (Cyprus) that came against him belonged to Popillius Laenas and Rome. Antiochus had to return home, since to do otherwise would have meant declaring war on Rome, a foe he could not hope to defeat. He returned to Syria disappointed. Again he took out his frustration on the Jews in Jerusalem who observed the "holy covenant" 

heydoc's Commentary:  George Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary Galleys. Hebrew: "ships of Chittim." (Haydock) --- The ambassadors probably came in vessels belonging to Macedonia, (Calmet) which they found at Delos. (Livy xliv.) --- Romans. Popilius and the other Roman ambassadors, 

It seems you are greatly outnumbered in your belief. You may be the only one with such a belief. The ships of Chittim tie these verses to Antiochus. 

Most people consider the following verses to be about Antiochus:

 

²¹ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

²² And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

²³ And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

²⁴ He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

²⁵ And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

²⁶ Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

²⁷ And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

²⁸ Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

²⁹ At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

³⁰ For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

³¹ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

[iamlamad]

On 9/2/2020 at 9:03 AM, luigi said:

No, not all saints will be killed. There will be a remnant who come out with their skins. This is why the remnant living (with their skins) saints, will not precede those killed during the reign of the beast being caught up to the Lord first (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wow! The whole rest of the Christian world thinks those who are raised first are the dead in Christ: all believers who have died believing in Christ. 
I cannot fathom where you get your ideas from.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Ships of Chittim.—On Chittim, see Genesis 10:4; comp. Numbers 24:24. The LXX. explain this of the Romans, referring to the story in Livy, xlv. 11.

Matthew Henry Commentary:  from ver. 21, to relate to Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a cruel and violent persecutor of the Jews. 

Barnes Notes:  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him - The word rendered Chittim - כתים kı̂ttı̂ym - according to Gesenius, properly means "Cyprians," so called from a celebrated Phoenician colony in the island of Cyprus. In a wider acceptation the name came to comprehend the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, especially the northern parts, and therefore stands for the islands and coasts of Greece and the AEgean Sea. See Gesenius, Lexicon, and compare Josephus, "Ant." b. i. ch. vi. 1. The Egyptian government had called in the aid of the Romans, and Antiochus, therefore, was threatened with a war with the Romans if he did not abandon his enterprise against Egypt. The reference in the passage before us is to the embassage which the Romans sent to Antiochus in Egypt, requiring him to desist from his enterprise against Egypt. "When he had arrived at Leusine, about four miles from Alexandria, he met Caius Popilins Laenas, Caius Decimius, and Caius Hostilius, ambassadors, whom the Roman Senate had sent to him at the earnest request of Ptolemy Physcon. They were instructed to assure Antiochus that he must leave the kingdom of Egypt and the island of Cyprus in peace, or expect a war with the Romans. When Antiochus said that he would lay the affair before his council, Popilius, the head of the legation, with his staff drew a circle about the king in the sand on which they stood, and exclaimed, 'Before you leave that circle, you must give me an answer which I can report to the Senate.' Antiochius was confounded, but on a little reflection, he said he would do whatever the Senate required."

J.F.B. commentary:  30. ships of Chittim—the Roman ambassadors arriving in Macedonian Grecian vessels (see on [1107]Jer 2:10). Chittim, properly Cyprian, so called from a Phœnician colony in Cyprus; then the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean in general.

grieved—humbled and dispirited through fear of Rome.

indignation against the holy covenant—Indignant that meantime God's worship had been restored at Jerusalem, he gives vent to his wrath at the check given him by Rome, on the Jews.

Matthew Poole's Commentary: The ships of Chittim shall come against him, i.e. the Romans out of Italy, and parts of the Archipelago, under them, shall come with force, and they shall vex and afflict him; for the Romans had harbours for their ships and galleys in Cilicia, Macedonia, and other parts of those coasts; whereby, after they had subdued Greece, they pursued Antiochus in Asia, and sent into Egypt to prevent his going into Alexandria. — Liv. 1. 45. This grieved and fretted him; for when he lingered and framed excuses, Popilius the Roman ambassador made a circle about him with his rod, commanding he should not stir thence till he gave him a positive present answer, by which, sore against his will, he was fain to pack away out of Egypt, and withdraw his garrisons and navy thence. This made his heart boil with rancour, which he spit out all against the Jews; 

Gill's Commentary:  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him,.... Ptolemy king of Egypt, and his brother, being come to an agreement, sent an embassy to the senate of Rome, to implore their help and assistance against Antiochus, who was preparing to besiege them in Alexandria; upon which they sent their ambassadors Caius Popilius Laenas, Caius Decimus, and Caius Hostilius, in ships from Macedonia (z), or Greece, to Antiochus, to require him to desist from making war upon Ptolemy, and that he quit the land of Egypt;

Geneva Study Bible:  That is, the Roman power will come against him: for P. Popilius the ambassador appointed him to depart in the Romans' name, which he obeyed, although with grief, and to avenge his rage he came against the people of God the second time.

Cambridge Study Bible: The allusion is to C. Popillius Laenas and the other Roman legates, who, as described above (p. 181), obliged Antiochus, when within sight of Alexandria, to withdraw his forces unconditionally from Egypt. 

Pulpit Commentary: The rendering is, "And the Romans shall come, and shall drive him out, and shall make him wroth, and he shall return and be enraged against the covenant of the holy, and shall do and return and plot against those on account of whom they left the covenant of the holy."

Adam Clarke Commentary: For the ships of Chittim shall come against him - Chittim is well known to mean the Roman empire. Antiochus, being now in full march to besiege Alexandria, and within seven miles of that city, heard that ships were arrived there from Rome, with legates from the senate. He went to salute them. They delivered to him the letters of the senate, in which he was commanded, on pain of the displeasure of the Roman people, to put an end to the war against his nephews. Antiochus said he would go and consult his friends; on which Popilius, one of the legates, took his staff, and instantly drew a circle round Antiochus on the sand where he stood, and commanded him not to pass that circle till he had given a definitive answer. Antiochus, intimidated, said, he would do whatever the senate enjoined; and in a few days after began his march, and returned to Syria.

 

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible  ships of Chittim — the Roman ambassadors arriving in Macedonian Grecian vessels (see on Jeremiah 2:10). Chittim, properly Cyprian, so called from a Phoenician colony in Cyprus; then the islands and coasts of the Mediterranean in general.

John Trapp Commentary: Publius Popilius, the Roman envoy, shall come in Italian or Grecian ships, and shall, in the name of the senate and people of Rome, command Antiochus to depart with his army out of Egypt, and that forthwith

Whedon's Commentary:  . There can be no doubt that the ships referred to here were those of the Romans connected with the expedition under the leadership of Caius Popilius Laenas, who was sent against Antiochus 168 B.C. and speedily pushed him back from Egypt in great humiliation 

Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable   The ships from Kittim (Cyprus) that came against him belonged to Popillius Laenas and Rome. Antiochus had to return home, since to do otherwise would have meant declaring war on Rome, a foe he could not hope to defeat. He returned to Syria disappointed. Again he took out his frustration on the Jews in Jerusalem who observed the "holy covenant" 

heydoc's Commentary:  George Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary Galleys. Hebrew: "ships of Chittim." (Haydock) --- The ambassadors probably came in vessels belonging to Macedonia, (Calmet) which they found at Delos. (Livy xliv.) --- Romans. Popilius and the other Roman ambassadors, 

It seems you are greatly outnumbered in your belief. You may be the only one with such a belief. The ships of Chittim tie these verses to Antiochus. 

Most people consider the following verses to be about Antiochus:

 

²¹ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

²² And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

²³ And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

²⁴ He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

²⁵ And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

²⁶ Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

²⁷ And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

²⁸ Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

²⁹ At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

³⁰ For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

³¹ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Rather than peoples commentaries, I use the Lord's Word where He provides us numerous correlations in order for us to ascertain who, what, when, and where something is about.

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Wow! The whole rest of the Christian world thinks those who are raised first are the dead in Christ: all believers who have died believing in Christ. 
I cannot fathom where you get your ideas from.

There are many millions of Christians who have died believing in Christ. The tens of thousands of saints with whom the Lord returns, however, are those who died for the Word in the Lord. This then brings us back to whether the tens of thousands of saints with whom the Lord returns were caught up/raptured to Christ upon their executions for the Word in the Lord, thereby fulfilling the Word where the living remnant saints upon the Lords return shall not precede those saints who were earlier killed?

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, luigi said:

There are many millions of Christians who have died believing in Christ. The tens of thousands of saints with whom the Lord returns, however, are those who died for the Word in the Lord. This then brings us back to whether the tens of thousands of saints with whom the Lord returns were caught up/raptured to Christ upon their executions for the Word in the Lord, thereby fulfilling the Word where the living remnant saints upon the Lords return shall not precede those saints who were earlier killed?

.The tens of thousands of saints with whom the Lord returns, however, are those who died for the Word in the Lord. There is no hint of this in the Word. It must therefore be imagination. 

First, WHICH "return?" He will bring the spirits of the billions who have died in Christ with Him in His next and 1 Thes. 4 coming.
When He comes again 7 years later, as shown in Rev. 19, He will have both the Old and New Testament saints with Him as part of the armies of heaven. Without a doubt, ALL of the saved of humanity at that time will be at the marriage and supper in heaven. Then all will return to earth and to Armageddon with Him. 

I'll have to close this before I write more. computer is XXX.

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Enoch may not have known a bigger number than "thousand." 

There is no scripture that tells us saints are caught up or raptured when they are executed. Are you talking about those saints seen under the altar at the 5th seal, or those who will be killed by the Beast and False Prophet? 

Those that are resurrected FIRST at Paul's rapture are the dead in Christ: perhaps several billion by now. They would INCLUDE those martyrs under the altar but will not be limited to only those who have been martyred: they will be ALL those who have died in Christ, natural death or otherwise. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, luigi said:

Rather than peoples commentaries, I use the Lord's Word where He provides us numerous correlations in order for us to ascertain who, what, when, and where something is about.

I can assure you, those that write commentaries use the Lord's word also, but they came up with something different than you. Perhaps you could entertain the idea, at least momentarily, that you have it wrong?