The dragon is the second beast in Revelation 13

[luigi]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am not going to put words in the false prophet's mouth that the bible does not give us. God does tell us that the Little Horn and the Beast of Rev. 13 (one and the same being) speaks blasphemies and is very proud.

The mouth of the beast, who is another description for the little horn that rises up amongst the ten horns of the beast, is by description a separate entity from the whole of the beast.

This same little horn who is the beasts mouth, who in Daniel 8:10-12 casts the truth the Lords angels/stars provide mankind, we see in Daniel 8:11 & 25; and 11:36, magnifying himself, thereby indicating this narcissist as a single individual. This same narcissist, is yet another description for the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 who exalts himself (singular tense), above all that is called God...

This is the Antichrist, and the false prophet who speaks of how great things are going to be under his guidance and control.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

The mouth of the beast, who is another description for the little horn that rises up amongst the ten horns of the beast, is by description a separate entity from the whole of the beast.

This same little horn who is the beasts mouth, who in Daniel 8:10-12 casts the truth the Lords angels/stars provide mankind, we see in Daniel 8:11 & 25; and 11:36, magnifying himself, thereby indicating this narcissist as a single individual. This same narcissist, is yet another description for the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 who exalts himself (singular tense), above all that is called God...

This is the Antichrist, and the false prophet who speaks of how great things are going to be under his guidance and control.

"this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

"even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Of course a man has eyes of a man, and has a mouth. And some men look more stout than others. This little horn is the Beast of Rev. 13. And before he is the Beast, he is the man of sin. 

Revelation 13 speaks of another beast which John also called the False Prophet. We can only guess what he might say, because the bible does not tell us. 

"This is the Antichrist, and the false prophet..."  It seems you are trying to turn two different people (Beasts) into ONE. They are TWO Beasts that do TWO different things. The second Beast always defers to the first. He does false miracles (only when close to the first Beast) to make it SEEM as if the first beast really is god. 

[luigi]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

"this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

"even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Of course a man has eyes of a man, and has a mouth. And some men look more stout than others. This little horn is the Beast of Rev. 13. And before he is the Beast, he is the man of sin. 

Revelation 13 speaks of another beast which John also called the False Prophet. We can only guess what he might say, because the bible does not tell us. 

"This is the Antichrist, and the false prophet..."  It seems you are trying to turn two different people (Beasts) into ONE. They are TWO Beasts that do TWO different things. The second Beast always defers to the first. He does false miracles (only when close to the first Beast) to make it SEEM as if the first beast really is god. 

The Lord provides us the data on the little horn having eyes like a man so that we can recognize him as an individual and not as the whole of the beast with all its members.

If you wish to see the ten horned beast in Revelation 13 as different from the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7, that would then also make the beasts mouth in Daniel 7 different from the beasts mouth in Revelation 13. As your perspective would make God an author of confusion by not differentiating these entities, which contradicts the Word where God is not an author of confusion; I will then maintain my perspective on the 10 horned beast and the beasts mouth in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 as being the same entities.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

The Lord provides us the data on the little horn having eyes like a man so that we can recognize him as an individual and not as the whole of the beast with all its members.

If you wish to see the ten horned beast in Revelation 13 as different from the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7, that would then also make the beasts mouth in Daniel 7 different from the beasts mouth in Revelation 13. As your perspective would make God an author of confusion by not differentiating these entities, which contradicts the Word where God is not an author of confusion; I will then maintain my perspective on the 10 horned beast and the beasts mouth in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 as being the same entities.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

What is the difference between the forth beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn? They cannot be the same, for the little horn comes up out of the ten. 

Are these the same ten as the ten horns in Revelation? I don't think so: the ten heads in Revelation I believe join with the Beast at the last hour, so to speak, to wipe Israel off the map. On the other hand, the ten in Daniel 7 are ten from which the little horn arises and takes out three.

Am I missing something? 

Please lay out briefly what you think Daniel 7 is telling us, and then what Rev. 13 and 17 are telling us. Maybe I can learn something. I have had no revealed knowledge on these things. 

[luigi]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What is the difference between the forth beast of Daniel 7 and the little horn? They cannot be the same, for the little horn comes up out of the ten. 

Are these the same ten as the ten horns in Revelation? I don't think so: the ten heads in Revelation I believe join with the Beast at the last hour, so to speak, to wipe Israel off the map. On the other hand, the ten in Daniel 7 are ten from which the little horn arises and takes out three.

Am I missing something? 

Please lay out briefly what you think Daniel 7 is telling us, and then what Rev. 13 and 17 are telling us. Maybe I can learn something. I have had no revealed knowledge on these things. 

As we both understand the little horn who is the 10 horned beasts mouth in Daniel 7, to also be the little horn in Daniel 8; then the he goat from whom the little horn emerges in Daniel 8 is one of the beasts members. The he goat has a notable horn with which he traverses the entire earth from the West to annihilate a ram with two horns. After defeating the two horned ram, representing Media and Persia, which today are Iraq and Iran, the he-goats notable horn then secedes into four horns/powers. It is from one of these seceded horns from which the little horn/the beasts mouth, emerges.

Prior to the he goat seceding into four kingdoms, it was a singular kingdom representing one of the fourth beasts members. As such prior to he goats secession into four kingdoms, the 10 horned beast would have consisted of seven horns. These seven horns/kingdoms would then correspond with the seven heads in Revelation 13. The description of the beast in Revelation 13 still having only seven heads, after its member the he goat secedes into four lesser kingdoms informs us that the G7 will not recognize any additional voting status to the he goat after its secession into four entities, but the he goat will continue having only one head representing its four members.

Edited September 8, 2021 by luigi

[iamlamad]

On 9/8/2021 at 2:32 PM, luigi said:

As we both understand the little horn who is the 10 horned beasts mouth in Daniel 7, to also be the little horn in Daniel 8; then the he goat from whom the little horn emerges in Daniel 8 is one of the beasts members. The he goat has a notable horn with which he traverses the entire earth from the West to annihilate a ram with two horns. After defeating the two horned ram, representing Media and Persia, which today are Iraq and Iran, the he-goats notable horn then secedes into four horns/powers. It is from one of these seceded horns from which the little horn/the beasts mouth, emerges.

Prior to the he goat seceding into four kingdoms, it was a singular kingdom representing one of the fourth beasts members. As such prior to he goats secession into four kingdoms, the 10 horned beast would have consisted of seven horns. These seven horns/kingdoms would then correspond with the seven heads in Revelation 13. The description of the beast in Revelation 13 still having only seven heads, after its member the he goat secedes into four lesser kingdoms informs us that the G7 will not recognize any additional voting status to the he goat after its secession into four entities, but the he goat will continue having only one head representing its four members.

I don't have such a wild imagination. Sorry. I have to keep verses in context.

Chapter 8 is exclusively about ancient Greece, Alexander the Great, ancient Persia, and how Alexander defeated Darius. Then it jumps ahead in time to Antiochus Epiphanes in the latter end of Greece's reign, and tells us how he defiled the temple - and it took 2300 days before the temple was cleansed and the daily sacrifices began once again. There is nothing in chapter 8 about the future from us today.

In other words, the he goat is history, not future.

[luigi]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't have such a wild imagination. Sorry. I have to keep verses in context.

Chapter 8 is exclusively about ancient Greece, Alexander the Great, ancient Persia, and how Alexander defeated Darius. Then it jumps ahead in time to Antiochus Epiphanes in the latter end of Greece's reign, and tells us how he defiled the temple - and it took 2300 days before the temple was cleansed and the daily sacrifices began once again. There is nothing in chapter 8 about the future from us today.

In other words, the he goat is history, not future.

So tell me how ancient Greece who is the he-goat traversed the entire earth from the west without touching the ground (Daniel 8:5) to annihilate Persia/Iran? Also, could you explain how the angel who tells Daniel that the visions shown him that are for the time of the end, when the last end of the indignation, when the time appointed for the end, are in reference to ancient Greece (Daniel 8:17 & 19)?

 Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

future from us today.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

So tell me how ancient Greece who is the he-goat traversed the entire earth from the west without touching the ground (Daniel 8:5) to annihilate Persia/Iran? Also, could you explain how the angel who tells Daniel that the visions shown him that are for the time of the end, when the last end of the indignation, when the time appointed for the end, are in reference to ancient Greece (Daniel 8:17 & 19)?

 Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

future from us today.

It is only a manner of speech, not to be taken literally: Alexander did not use helicopters or planes. 

You must take these things "IN CONTEXT." Daniel tells us what "end" he is talking about: it is the end of the "indignation" caused by Antiochus. 

I am convinced your mind is made up and you are not going to believe me, so no need to respond. 

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is only a manner of speech, not to be taken literally: Alexander did not use helicopters or planes. 

You must take these things "IN CONTEXT." Daniel tells us what "end" he is talking about: it is the end of the "indignation" caused by Antiochus. 

I am convinced your mind is made up and you are not going to believe me, so no need to respond. 

God clearly used the language "without touching the ground" so that we would know what it meant in conjunction with His angel calling these events scheduled for the end times. Your perspective makes God look incompetent; not knowing how to describe things for your hypothetical BC event.