Why can’t the CHURCH be in part of the 70th week?

[Spock]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

We need to see the whole picture of Rev 12 to understand who are the remnant.

 

 

John saw only one appearance of Christ on the cloud (He didnt land on the ground) thats why the tribes of the world shall mourn.

^{Rev 1 7} Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Thanks brother,

im surprised you don’t see a duality in rev 12:5.....1. Jesus and 2. the church. The Greek work “harpazo” (Caught up) was used. Where have you heard that word before?  And, according to Jesus in Rev 2:26-27, the church overcomes Will also rule with a rod of iron. 

[Spock]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

No, I don't have a link as these are the things that I see. I know there are others that believe in two raptures but there are usually differences in what I believe. What I found is when people believe in a pretribulation raputre, they make so many mistakes in the timing of what is happening that others can argue against it. For instance, people that believe in a pretribulation Rapture have to believe that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming WHEN JESUS RETURNS WITH HIS ARMIES and sets up His kingdom on earth. This coming is really the coming of Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. It occurs here:

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Matthew 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you want to understand Revelation, you need to line up these two events. In fact, you need to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation 6. All of Matthew 24 is talking end times. There is no Church age or anything else going on in Matthew 24. Jesus tells you that false Christ are coming, He tells you there will be wars with nation rising against nation. He tells you there will be famines and pestilence. These are the beginning of sorrows. They also line up perfectly with the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. Then in Matt 24 we get the AOD being setup and this leads to the great tribulation. When we go to the 5th seal we see the great tribulation.

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is proof that it is the great tribulation in the 5th seal. We see those in the 5th seal arrayed in white robes.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I do want to point out one thing. There are those that claim that those cosmic signs at the 6th seal are not the same as those in Matthew 24. They claim that in Rev 6, the moon is as blood, but in Matthew 24 the moon does not give light. All you have to do is go look at a lunar eclipse on YouTube and you will see that before the moon turns as blood in a lunar eclipse, the moon first goes dark before the red light bends causing the moon to be as blood.

Anyway, any timeline that does not line up the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is incorrect.

Yes, but it is Rev 6:12-15. All three are describing the same event, the coming Jesus for the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes. I already showed you where we can see the great tribulation in Matt 24 and also at the 5th seal. Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14

Rev 14

¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What happens after the great tribulation. In Matt 24 we saw above that Jesus returns and sends his angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. In Rev 6 at the 6th seal we see that the kings want the mountains to fall on them and hide them from Jesus. Then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So what happens in Rev 14 after the great tribulation which I showed above. Jesus comes on a white cloud and harvest the earth. Then another angel swings his sickle and cast those into the wrath of God, just like you see in at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.

We have more proof in Rev 15. We see those that had gotten victory over the beast, with the blood of the lamb and notice that they sing the song of Moses. These are of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

I believe they will be here for the full week. So when Jesus comes to rapture them, the week is over. Without understanding these things you should conclude a mid tribulation rapture because because of this verse:

Dan 12

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

But if we consider this verse, we can see that the AOD happens toward the end of the week and there is a time, times and half a time wrath of God. Most people force the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the AOD to occur at the same time as it will not fit their timeline. They try to cram everything into 1 week, but the wrath of God occurs after the week is over as we can see if we just put things where the scripture says they go.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

¹² Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

I can only tell you how I saw it and that was from this verse:

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

When I read this, I realized that God had seen the fathers of the Jews as the 1st ripe in the fig tree at her first time. But what did that mean? I did some research on the fig tree and realized that the fig tree has two harvests a year. The first crop is the breba crop and the second harvest is the main harvest. Had the Jews not gone after other Gods, they would have been the 1st harvest as that is what is meant by the fig tree at her 1st time. And of course, learn the parable of the fig tree. Once you understand the order of Revelation you will start seeing and understandings things you never saw before.

Greetings again Light,

as I reread your several posts directed to me, there were a few things you said that really was good.

1. you said 6th seal=Matthew 24:29-31.  Honestly, I’ve been on the fence on that one mostly because I have considered the possibility that the Olivet Disxourse in Matthew 24-25 is written to the for the Jews and not really to the church. Admittedly this interpretation causes me much anguish because it bothers me to think Jesus wasn’t really talking to me in these two chapters.  But I figured no one knew about a rapture back then uNtil Paul about it so maybe these words are just for them and Christ was only addressing their questions, which had nothing to do with a rapture. 
 

2. rapture in rev 14.....the 144,000 appear to be in heaven, although this is hotly debated. If so, how did they get there?  Rapture? 
I don’t know where in scripture you see the rapture of the church, but I see it on the 6th seal, confirmed by seeing the great multitude of Rev 7:9-17.  Yes, I see the great multitude representing the raptured church.....not  “trib saints” that pre tribbers want us to believe.  I can’t imagine “trib saints” will be that innumerable. 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/2/2020 at 10:13 PM, Spock said:

This question is for all my pre trib friends.  I really want to believe in the pre trib doctrine, but I need a few questions answered. This is a big one.

I hear so many pre tribbers say Daniels 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 is only meant for Israel and Daniel’s people (Jews).  And they rightfully cite Daniel 9:24, which says....“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression and to put an end totsin,...”

Okay, I get that, I really do.....but, where does it say in the Word that the Church can’t also be involved in even a  part of this 490 years?  Jew and Gentile together is not uncommon, is it? Obviously, the only chance they can be intermingled with Jews is in the last week, week 70, seeing that week 69 ended at probably Jesus’ baptism (when he was anointed).  

There are a few hints that the 70th week will be about the Jewish peoples salvation, not the Christians who already know Jesus and shouldn't need to be saved, though many (maybe half) still need Salvation. (5 of 10 brides make it..............................One is TAKEN and One is LEFT = 50 percent). 

1.) Romans 11 tells us the Jews will not be grafted back into the family until the time of the Gentiles comes full, what do people think that means? Especially when reading chapters 9-11 and understanding the full context of those three chapters. Paul reveals that its THE PROMISE that counts, not the flesh, thus God chooses whom He wills, and He chose Jacob over Esau, Paul is trying to let the Romans know, HEY GUYS......Don't get the big head, God chose you because you believed in the promise, and the Jews lacked faith, but like God's choosing Jacob over Esau, don't get the big head for God did what He did that he might have mercy upon your souls, and then via YOU GUYS God will eventually have mercy on my Jewish brothers and graft them back into the family. The reason he gives the Esau and Jacob story is to show them, God chooses whom He will when He wills, and its all about his grand plan and mercy, it doesn't mean the Gentiles are a special people, no more than the Jews were a special people, God is no respecter of men, in General.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (It can't be any clearer than this, Israel will be BLINDED IN PART {as a Nation} until the TIME of the Gentiles be come in.) The three chapters are about why God chose the Gentiles to take the Mantle of the Gospel unto the whole world and why He forsook Israel. Paul says, who questions the potters wheel ? Not the Vessel that is being made !! It was not up to Esau and Jacob, God chooses whom He will when He wills. So, the TIME of the Gentiles MUST COME FULL, before the Jewish Peoples can be grafted back in........WELL, what is our Mantle ? What job did God give to the Gentile peoples? That is pretty simple, to take the Gospel of His son Jesus Christ unto all nations, and then THE END WILL COME.

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This should be a HUGE SIGNPOST, the world is not ending, Jesus rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years. The only thing that ends is Satan's reign over the World, or the Babylon Confusion Cycle. The 70th week is THE END of that cycle, Satan will be cast out of heaven, then after the 42 months locked in a pit for 1000 years. Satan will rule mankind no more until he is loosed for a season. The 69th week ended with Jesus' death. The 70th week will begin after the Gentile Church (along with some Jews THUS the IN PART) has been Raptured.

On 9/2/2020 at 10:13 PM, Spock said:

Pre tribbers say the rapture has to occur BEFORE the week begins......but all I want is some solid confirmation not from what you think but from what is written. Show me why this is so!  

The Bible is about Israel, if the Jews had accepted Jesus Christ then Jesus would have saved them in 70 AD. Paul told people the Rapture was a MYSTERY (Musterion or SECRET by God's silence) for a reason, so don't look for it in any of the Old Testament verses, except vaguely, and Paul tells of it vaguely, but the INFORMATION all adds up to the Pre Trib Rapture, as I have laid out countless times. Stop asking for for specific verses when its not supposed to be there, else Paul wouldn't have said I tell you a Mystery. The difference in pre tribbers and any other tribbers, is we see the TIMING AS EVIDENCED in the Scriptures. 

An Example,  lets say Alabama and Georgia are playing a football game and because of the COVID 19 Virus they wanted it to be a Secret where only a few select big shots could attend. THE EVIDENCE would be in the TIMING OF SAID EVENTS. Have the teams charted a bus on the Friday before the game, have they hired Security for the teams, have the readied the field etc. etc. etc. They don't have to print up tickets and advertise for there to be a game, FOLLOW THE CLUES...........The timing clues in the book of Revelation give it away. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 tells us its a pre trib rapture. Paul in 2 Thess. 2 tells us its a pre trib Rapture, but only when you ADD IT ALL UP by looking at the TIMINGS in the book of Revelation. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.  Its obvious to me, so I see all those who can't see it as just not putting in the hard work, OR being too stubborn to self correct.

On 9/2/2020 at 10:13 PM, Spock said:

Consider this...do you believe the New Covenant was written for the Church? Most do believe such to be so, but look at what Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 31....“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD:”

 

In actuality there is no New Covenant, God had to tell them this because they actually believed THE COVENANT was the Law of Moses by TRADITION, but the fact is the PROMISE was the original Covenant, read Gal. ch. 3. The law came 430 years AFTER the Covenant of the Promised Seed.  

Gen. 22:18 And in thy seed (Jesus) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.......The ORIGINAL Promise was never about Israel alone, but about ALL Nations of the whole earth being blessed through Jesus THY SEED.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The LAW was ADDED............The original COVENANT was THE PROMISE.......And all nations were included !! 

On 9/2/2020 at 10:13 PM, Spock said:

So, even though Jeremiah said the New Covenant was for Israel, many in the church believe it is also for them. So why can’t the Church also be present And intermingled with Jews in at least some part of the first half of Daniel’s 70th week... Before the Great Tribulation begins?  Also, most agree we are presently in the CHURCH AGE from the time Christ ascended till now, right?  But the last time I looked out my window or drive down the street, I see plenty of Jews everywhere. Jew+Gentile intermingling during the Church Age.  So again, why can’t Jew +Gentile intermingle a little in Daniel’s 70th week? 

If you believe there are other reasons the church can’t be in the first half of the week, for now, please disregard these other reasons because i just want to know, do you believe the church can’t be in any part of Daniels week because it is only for Israel and Jews, and not the church....and on what basis do you hold this belief? 
 

thanks for replying. I’m watching and excited to learn,

spock 

The Church isn't included because we do not need to REPENT or TURN back unto God, our mission on earth is complete. We have taken the MANTLE God gave us and delivered the Gospel unto the very ends of the world. There will be a Remnant Church (Revelation 12:17) many of those 5 Brides and the ONE Left will become true Christians and many will die, so there is a Remnant Church on earth and the reason they are called a Remnant is THE CHURCH is in Heaven, as Raptured by Jesus Christ, as Rev. 14:14 shows in a FLASH BACK. There will be Jewish Christians in the Rapture also thus the IN PART means the Jews were blinded as a Nation, not as Individuals, John is there, as will be Peter, Paul etc. as will all Messianic Jews.

As per the Jews and Gentiles are ONE............like a few seem to point out, they have misconstrued the whole passage. Go read it again once I tell you what it means and see if you can thus see this in the passage.

There were Jews trying to get the Galatians to CONFORM their Christian ways unto accepting the "Jewish Traditions" of observing the Laws, Sabbath, Purification Rituals etc. etc., and thus these Gentile Christians thought they had to become like the Jews, and Paul says WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU, that starting out in the Spirit you have reverted to your OLD FLESH WAYS [of the Jewish Laws which can save nobody). Received ye the Spirit by the Works of the Law or BY FAITH ? he asks them.... he tells them, even as Abraham BELIEVED God, it was accounted to him as righteousness. (Hes DRIVING A POINT HOME). 

Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed(I pointed this out ABOVE Remember?).

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

NOW THE CRUX OF WHAT NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE ACTUALLY MEANS !!

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye(Galatians/Gentiles) are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, many people say this proves we are ALL ONE, some even say the Church has taken the place of the Jews, of course nothing could be further from the truth in both cases. They don't even see the GIST of what this is about, because Satan is a crafty liar, of course. To start with, we know there are MALES.........and FEMALES, so that should tell you if you actually think this means there are not Jews and Gentiles, then you have headed down the wrong path, and are close to the cliff.

What Paul was doing here.......GO READ IT IN FULL........Was telling these Gentiles (Galatians) HEY GUYS.........You don't have to become Jews to be of Jesus Christ and to be of God........WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU TO BELIEVE THIS LIE ? Why are you following Jewish Customs of old ? In God there is neither Jew nor Greek..............hes telling them you don't have to be Jewish to make it to Heaven !! You don't have to observe in the Laws of Moses, we live by FAITH ALONE !!

Now, allow me to give the reasons for the Rapture, our mission on earth is complete AND both Jews AND Gentiles in Christ Jesus will be Raptured to Heaven at the exact same time, both the Dead Jews and Dead Gentiles in Christ and both the LIVING Jews and Gentiles will all be taken to heaven at the same time because we are all In Christ Jesus via FAITH ALONE.

After the Rapture, the Jews who Repent will be protected in the Petra/Bozrah area because Jesus has to live amongst the Jews for his 1000 year reign and to keep the Promise of an everlasting seed to Abraham on this earth, thus the have to be PROTECTED. The Remnant Church will also be saved AFTER the Rapture when they come to Jesus Christ by FAITH ALONE, thus on both sides of the Rapture, both Jews and Gentiles are treated exactly the same, we must come unto God by FAITH ALONE......Thus there is neither Jew nor Gentile who are treated DIFFERENTLY, we must all come to God via Jesus Christ, and by FAITH ALONE, no man will be saved who does not come to God by Faith, God is not going to just SHOW UP (Jesus) and save the Jews, they have to Repent First, just like everyone else. 

So, in the Rapture, there are Jews and Gentiles, in the 70th week, there will be both Jews and Gentiles who repent. The Gentiles will become the Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal, which lasts for 42 months. In Rev. 20:4 ONLY THOSE Gentiles who refuse the Mark of the Beast and are killed will live and reign on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign. The Jews will still be humans and the 1000 year reign will start.

Revelation is the KEY to understanding the Rapture, the Church is seen in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Joulre2abba]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings my brother, 

Fair enough....but who deemed the entire 7 year week (Daniels 70th) a time of God’s wrath?  According to Revelation only 3.5 years (42 months, 1260 days) is the time of wrath. 
 

I think pre tribbers made the entire 7 years a time of wrath based on conjecture and inference, not on the word of God.  Maybe they are right, but then again, maybe not. Can you show me where God’s wrath is 7 years from the Word?  Can you show me why the church can’t commingle with Jews in “a part” of the week?  Admittedly, I do not believe the church will be here for sure in the final 3.5 years, known as the GREAT TRIBULATION. 

Not all pre-tribbers believe exactly the same thing. The first 3.5 years is a time of relative peace between the Jews and all nations. It's not until the prince Cyrus type as I and also some Christians call him, gets a deadly wound and recovers, that he shows himself to be the fully evil antichrist. And that remaining 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation or, the wrath.

And the 2 Thes.2 area is why Christians will not be on the earth during any of the 7 yr Tribulation. It states that the Church, identified as He that restrains, shall be taken out of the way and then the lawless one, the Cyrus type, is revealed. That means that he can't step into the prophetic proverbial light of the stage until the Christians are raptured, because the church is the restrainer of the devil's works which can only start after he who restrains is gone. If it helps, it's like the saying. When the cats away, the mice will play.

[Spock]

32 minutes ago, Joulre2abba said:

Not all pre-tribbers believe exactly the same thing. The first 3.5 years is a time of relative peace between the Jews and all nations. It's not until the prince Cyrus type as I and also some Christians call him, gets a deadly wound and recovers, that he shows himself to be the fully evil antichrist. And that remaining 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation or, the wrath.

And the 2 Thes.2 area is why Christians will not be on the earth during any of the 7 yr Tribulation. It states that the Church, identified as He that restrains, shall be taken out of the way and then the lawless one, the Cyrus type, is revealed. That means that he can't step into the prophetic proverbial light of the stage until the Christians are raptured, because the church is the restrainer of the devil's works which can only start after he who restrains is gone. If it helps, it's like the saying. When the cats away, the mice will play.

Thanks for your reply.

just wondering, what if the man of sin is revealed at the abomination of desolation?  In truth, isn’t this when he becomes THE BEAST pursuant to Rev 13?  I think so....

So, why can’t you have rapture just before abomination of desolation, assuming this can be the big reveal?

[Joulre2abba]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Thanks for your reply.

just wondering, what if the man of sin is revealed at the abomination of desolation?  In truth, isn’t this when he becomes THE BEAST pursuant to Rev 13?  I think so....

So, why can’t you have rapture just before abomination of desolation, assuming this can be the big reveal?

The man of sin is revealed as that at the abomination of desolation. The first 3.5 years he's like a Messiah to the Jews. Because he supports them in making the third Temple, even as Cyrus supported them concerning the previous Temple. Their standards for accepting a Messiah is not all that strict. Therefore they've accepted false Messiah's. One of them led a group to jump off a cliff just because he told them that God would keep them from getting crushed and die. I suspect that the man was directly influenced of the devil because during the temptations of Jesus the devil suggested that Jesus jump because God would send his angels to keep him from getting hurt. So, if the Jews had believed in Jesus as their Messiah, they'd have read Matthew and known not to jump when the false Messiah told them to jump.

Revelation 13 is not one man, it's the whole enchilada. The entire empire made up of ten leaders. It could be describing the European Union. I know what you're going to say.. there's more than 10 nations. But not all 27 nations are leader nations. Do an indepth study on the EU.

The text of 2 Thes. 2 tells why the rapture of the church HAS to be before the Tribulation can start. (sorry if you already know this, but I don't know if you do) It is started when the lawless one makes a covenant with many for one week. One week is a prophetic week of years. That makes seven days in a week to be speaking from the prophecy of Daniel, seven years.

The lawless one CAN'T come on the scene to make a covenant with many unless the Church who restrains his coming, is taken out of the way.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Joulre2abba

[R. Hartono]

15 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks brother,

im surprised you don’t see a duality in rev 12:5.....1. Jesus and 2. the church. The Greek work “harpazo” (Caught up) was used. Where have you heard that word before?  And, according to Jesus in Rev 2:26-27, the church overcomes Will also rule with a rod of iron. 

What duality, the church is described as bride of Christ. Never as a manchild. Church consists of women too, why described it as manchild. Its Jesus who often called Himself as son of man which connects with this manchild.

Edited September 6, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

The man of sin is revealed as that at the abomination of desolation.

Some wrong understandings, and some correct understandings in this post brother, for starters, how does the Man of Sin/Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast get revealed at the 1290 when he goes forth conquering as Dan. 12:7 says at the 1260, which happens 30 days after the 1290 ? It not him that takes away the Sacrifice (which is Jesus by the way, not a Meat Sacrifice) and places the AoD in the temple of God, its the False Prophet who is a Jewish High Priest. How can the temple be made and abomination by placing an Image of the E.U. President (Image) in the Temple if its already an ABOMINATION via a Meat Sacrifice ? LOL...........It can't, the Jews REPENT before the Day of the Lord, Malachi 4:5-6 and Zechariah 13:8-9 says so.

22 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

The first 3.5 years he's like a Messiah to the Jews. Because he supports them in making the third Temple, even as Cyrus supported them concerning the previous Temple. Their standards for accepting a Messiah is not all that strict. Therefore they've accepted false Messiah's.

Nowhere does the bible say this brother, you guys have misconstrued the John 5:43 verse as being END TIMES, when Jesus was clearly prophesying to the Pharisees and Scribes/Jewish Leaders of his day, THEY.........Only they rejected Jesus, and THEY then just before being wiped out in 70 AD put forth Jewish Messiahs, whom they saw as a Political Savior, not the Son of God (which is why the killed Jesus), thus they being learned me, saw that Rome was indeed the Fourth Beast, thus they ACCEPTED OTHERS as the Messiah because they actually believed he was going to come save them form the Fourth Beast. So, all this conjecture that they accept the Anti-Christ as their savior has zero merit brother. The 1/3 of the Jews who REPENT, Flee Judea at the AoD sign, which gives them 30 days to flee Judea, they are the 144,000 which really just means ALL Israel, or 3-5 million Jews, according yo how many have returned to the homeland by the very end times, because 1/3 Repent and 2/3 will perish, read Zechariah 13:8-9. 

22 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Revelation 13 is not one man, it's the whole enchilada. The entire empire made up of ten leaders. It could be describing the European Union. I know what you're going to say.. there's more than 10 nations. But not all 27 nations are leader nations. Do an indepth study on the EU.

 

You have the E.U. right, the number 10 is METAPHORIC in Nature, the 10 Brides represent all of Christendom, in Rev. 2:10 it says you will have tribulation for 10 days (that means the WHOLE Church Age). The Fractured Roman Empire becomes 10 Kings......or whatsoever the number is over that 1500-2000 some odd year period of time, after Rome falls, unless God was speaking about after Israel fell, thus there could be NO BEAST over Israel, hence the 1500-2000 year identification point. Either way, the 10 represents the Fractured Kingdom, be it 1 with Rome, maybe 5 kingdoms 1500 years ago, maybe 19 kingdoms 1000 years ago, maybe 15 kingdoms 500 years, or the 27 Kingdoms now, counting England, or 26 kingdoms when they leave the E.U. The 10 simply represents the Fractured Kingdoms that could not come back together as one, even via Royal Marriage (SEEDS OF MEN in verse 41 or 42) and even by Wars. Only when Israel was Reborn did they come back together, from the 1950's to the 1970's. 

So you get the Kingdom right, and on the whole other theory, I can't blame you there, God just ave that to me in the last few months while studying God and His use of Numbers as I was inquiring about the 144,000. The E.U. is correct, I have a bunch of posts showing how the E.U. Conquers THE MANY.......

22 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

The text of 2 Thes. 2 tells why the rapture of the church HAS to be before the Tribulation can start. (sorry if you already know this, but I don't know if you do) It is started when the lawless one makes a covenant with many for one week. One week is a prophetic week of years. That makes seven days in a week to be speaking from the prophecy of Daniel, seven years.

The lawless one CAN'T come on the scene to make a covenant with many unless the Church who restrains his coming, is taken out of the way.

OK, yo are right here also, I have an old blog showing why the falling away is a false understanding, its really the DEPARTURE. 

The Jews do not accept the Anti-Christ brother, that is misconstrued notion. 

I think given the proper scriptures you can understand why the 1290 is 30 days before the 1260 and why the Jews do not accept the Anti-Christ. The 1260, 1290, and 1335 is the KEY to understanding the timing of ALL END TIME PROPHECY.

[The Light]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:54 AM, Spock said:

Thanks Light for answering all my questions. I can see you have given this much thought and it all makes sense to you. I haven’t quite reached that point yet (everything makes sense) but I think God knows this motivates me to keep searching for the Truth! 
 

only one thing that I would like your feedback on at this time....have you considered the possibility that the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended into Heaven and have been in play for about 2000 years?

I used to think that, as that's kind of what gets passed around. Once I understood that the first 6 seals agree perfectly with Matthew 24 I cast that aside. Additionally, once I realized that all of Matt 24 was about end times, I quit be sidetracked by things that have been passed down from lack of understanding. Take Luke 21 for instance:

Luke 21

⁶ As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

⁷ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So many people get sidetracked by thinking that when the second temple was cast down, that there was not one stone upon another. That's just not factual. It is the 3rd Temple that will be cast down when there will not be one stone upon another. If that is not true, then please tell me WHAT SIGN WAS GIVEN WHEN THESE THINGS CAME TO PASS. The answer is, there is no sign as these things (ALL the stones being cast down) have not come to pass.

Just like I told you about the cosmic signs. Anyone that does not line up the cosmic signs at the 6th seal, with the cosmic signs in Matt 24, is confused. Just like, anyone that thinks that all the stones have been cast down, and the people of the Antichrist are Roman, are mistaken and confused.

 

On 9/5/2020 at 7:54 AM, Spock said:

 Thus, seal 5 martyrs would be martyrs from the time Jesus ascended till present...perhaps Stephen being the first. And they are having to wait a little longer until the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.  This would mean the 6th seal is up next and could very well mean the return of Christ in the clouds to pick up his church. Everything after that moment is the wrath of God....this is why there was silence in heaven for 30 minutes....a very sobering moment. 
 

let me know what you think. Thanks,

spock

That line of thought is totally inaccurate. We should know that the 5th seal occurs during the great tribulation and we can prove that by the people that come of great tribulation in Rev 7. And of course we can see the great tribulation in Rev 14 just before the son of Man appears in the clouds. Then we can see those that came out of the great tribulation in Rev 15 and they are singing the song of Moses meaning they are Jews.

[The Light]

On 9/5/2020 at 9:12 AM, Spock said:

Greetings again Light,

as I reread your several posts directed to me, there were a few things you said that really was good.

1. you said 6th seal=Matthew 24:29-31.  Honestly, I’ve been on the fence on that one mostly because I have considered the possibility that the Olivet Disxourse in Matthew 24-25 is written to the for the Jews and not really to the church. Admittedly this interpretation causes me much anguish because it bothers me to think Jesus wasn’t really talking to me in these two chapters.  But I figured no one knew about a rapture back then uNtil Paul about it so maybe these words are just for them and Christ was only addressing their questions, which had nothing to do with a rapture. 
 

I can't agree with you that no one knew about the rapture as Jesus told them right here.

Matt 24

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

And yes, in most of those verses Jesus is talking to the Jews, but in the above verses He is talking to the Church, as the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. On the other hand, the Jews will know when He is coming as He is coming at the last day and that day will be just before the day of the Lord occurs. That day, the day of the Lord, will not take Jews unaware as they will not be in darkness. They will understand that that He will come at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets. Additionally, THEY will see the signs. As for the Goodman, He will not know when the rapture will occur. He will get no signs. All He will know is that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, and the bride better make herself ready.

On 9/5/2020 at 9:12 AM, Spock said:

2. rapture in rev 14.....the 144,000 appear to be in heaven, although this is hotly debated. If so, how did they get there?  Rapture? 

Not sure why there would be a debate. Just read what it says. It says that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. It says that they will be redeemed from among men. It says that they are first fruits. Yes, they were raptured. We have proof of that. No one could learn the song but the 144,000, and the song was sung before the throne. Therefore the 144,000 are before the throne in heaven. Prophecy is very hard to understand, but if anyone is having trouble figuring out if the 144,000 is in heaven, I wouldn't put much stock in what they have to say.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

On 9/5/2020 at 9:12 AM, Spock said:

I don’t know where in scripture you see the rapture of the church, but I see it on the 6th seal,

1st, we know Jesus is not going to tell us when He is coming as He tells us that. He tells us that the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. On the flip, of course you see His coming at the 6th seal. He tells us He is coming after the Great Tribulation, He tells us He is coming after the signs of the sun, moon and stars. That will not be a mystery.

That said, I could speculate that the come up hither in Rev 4 is the most likely spot for a rapture. After that we see the 24 elders in white raiment and with crowns and in Rev 5 we can see that they have to be speaking for a group of kings and priests.

On 9/5/2020 at 9:12 AM, Spock said:

 

confirmed by seeing the great multitude of Rev 7:9-17.  Yes, I see the great multitude representing the raptured church.....not  “trib saints” that pre tribbers want us to believe.  I can’t imagine “trib saints” will be that innumerable. 

The great multitude in Rev 7 is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church will be in heaven for 7 years and will return with the Lord at the gathering. The twelve tribes will be gathered from the earth. The nation of Israel remains on earth, protected.