Let's talk about the faith of Jesus Christ

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, Peterlag said:

Faith of Christ

Can't the verses you cited be understood to mean the faith found IN Christ Jesus?

[David1701]

16 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "God is in control of whom He saves AND we play a part in it, by His grace."  

After reading this again it doesn't make any sense. If God is in control of who He saves (and he is because He is sovereign), please explain the necessity for us to be involved in that decision.

God has told us how salvation works: we hear the gospel, he convicts us by the Holy Spirit and makes us born again, we repent and believe in Jesus Christ, then we are forgiven and given the Holy Spirit to indwell us.

I did not say that we are involved in God's decision of whom to save.  I said that we play a part in the salvation, by His grace.  That part is to repent and believe the gospel, by God's grace.

Look, do you honestly not realise that repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, which are gifts from God, are essential elements in salvation?  The Bible could hardly be more clear about it!

Quote

It sounds like you're saying that He knew before the world began who would choose Him?

When did I say that salvation was dependent upon sinful man's choice?  I did not.  The Bible never says that salvation is based on sinful man's choice.

[David1701]

15 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

He is all knowing, from eternity past to infinity future.  We are not robots.  We have freedom of choice.  Because God is Sovereign, He knows what we would freely choose before we choose.  He is God after all, and we are His people.

That's all true; but there's more to it than that...

The freedom of choice that we have, is to choose according to our nature.  If you have a sinful nature, then what you choose will be sin, because that is what you desire the most.

Eph. 2:3-5 (EMTV)

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the senses, and were by nature children of wrath, as also the rest.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The problem and the solution are both contained within this passage.

A) The problem is that the natural man (since Adam fell) is, by nature, a child of wrath, who loves sin and hates God.  He therefore fulfils the evil desires of his flesh and sense (as far as he is able), hates the light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20) that he might be saved.

B) God's solution is to make some of us alive (make us born again), so that we willingly repent and believe the gospel.  This is why the Lord told Nicodemus that we must be born again, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God (stated in John 3).  Entering the kingdom of God is by faith in Jesus Christ; therefore, we must be born again, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ, which agrees with A).

There is another point, and that is that faith in Jesus Christ is never said to be a result of man's choice - never.  It is a gift from God.

Phil. 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[David1701]

7 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Are you saying when you post Scripture it's Bible? But when I post Scripture it's rationalizations or philosophy?

Your post to which I responded, contained no Scripture, only rationalisations/philosophy.  If you post Scripture, that's fine; if you post opinions, without Scripture, not so much.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "Because God is Sovereign, He knows what we would freely choose before we choose." 

Being born into sin, no one can "choose, accept or come to " God (Jn.6:37). While you will not find any verse that would even suggest that we accept Christ,  Eph. 1:6 shows that "...HE  hath made US accepted in the beloved." And His beloved are His people,  those for whom Jesus made atonement .

John 6:35 - Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
John 6:36 - "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:38 - "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:39 - "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 - "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."  [NASB]

You have selectively edited the passage the John 6:35-40 passage to mean something it does not say.   John 6:40 is the key.

Ephesians 2:1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:2 - in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 2:3 - Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Ephesians 2:4 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:6 - and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:7 - so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:9 - not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.  [NASB]

If you're going to deny free will, you are saying we are robots.  There is no point in salvation because we have no choice.  It's a gift we can't refuse.  I don't buy this.  We are saved by faith, the faith that God gave us while we were still sinners. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Those who lived at the time of the first century (when the New Testament Scriptures were first starting to be spoken) prayed boldly because they believed their prayers could change things... even God’s mind. They understood they were working with God to determine the future because God has open routes into the future and He desires we participate with Him in determining which ones to take. And so it can be said we open a window of opportunity for new possibilities for God to carry out His goal when we turn to Him in prayer.

And since prayer affects both parties and changes the situation making it different than what it was prior to the prayer. Then asking in faith may make it possible for God to do something that He could not have done without our asking. And also there are indeed times when the person making the request makes a difference to God because He is interested in a personal loving relationship with us.

So if there is no verse in the Scriptures stating God is “omniscient” meaning He knows the past, the present, and the future? Then why do so many Christians believe God is omniscient?

Bible Verses About Omniscience

Bible verses related to Omniscience from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

Psalms 147:5 - Great [is] our Lord, and of great power: his understanding [is] infinite.

1 John 3:20 - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Isaiah 40:28 - Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 23:24 - Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Psalms 147:4 - 127:5 - He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by [their] names.   (Read More...)

Psalms 139:1 - 127:6 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].   (Read More...)

Romans 11:33-36 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!   (Read More...)

Hebrews 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Isaiah 42:9 - Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Job 28:24 - For he looketh to the ends of the earth, [and] seeth under the whole heaven;

1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Matthew 10:30 - But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Isaiah 40:13-14 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?   (Read More...)

Acts 1:24 - And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[Alive]

IMO--there are things that we can know and understand and there are things that we can only grasp in part.

There are times when attempting to build a construct around what we can only know in part, becomes a distraction or more.

On this subject, IMO the scriptures clearly state that we are foreknown, preordained and foreordained. These things can't be argued well. It is also clear that there are choices to be made. Humans can make choices.

Jesus said that no man can come to the Father unless the Father draw him. We know Salvation is by Grace through Faith. We know that a son of Lucifer has zero capacity to reach God and be righteous. We can make all these points on either side of the issue.

I think there is a nexus where predestination, Grace and choosing meet, but we don't fully understand it.

Add to this conundrum, defining what specific dynamic we are addressing.....before or after regeneration. Before or after the history and reality of the cross, resurrection and ascension in which we were (past time)  included.

It is not so simple as one human choosing or not choosing the Free Gift.

[Peterlag]

21 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Bible Verses About Omniscience

Bible verses related to Omniscience from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

Psalms 147:5 - Great [is] our Lord, and of great power: his understanding [is] infinite.

1 John 3:20 - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Isaiah 40:28 - Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 23:24 - Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Psalms 147:4 - 127:5 - He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by [their] names.   (Read More...)

Psalms 139:1 - 127:6 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].   (Read More...)

Romans 11:33-36 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!   (Read More...)

Hebrews 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Isaiah 42:9 - Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Job 28:24 - For he looketh to the ends of the earth, [and] seeth under the whole heaven;

1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Matthew 10:30 - But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Isaiah 40:13-14 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?   (Read More...)

Acts 1:24 - And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

That's like saying because I know all things about driving a car that I too know the future.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

That's like saying because I know all things about driving a car that I too know the future.

Your analogy maybe brilliant, but I don't get it.  Maybe you could expound on some of the scriptures provided.  I don't think there were cars in the scriptures.

[Peterlag]

10 hours ago, JohnD said:

Can't the verses you cited be understood to mean the faith found IN Christ Jesus?

No.