A different perception - of the Beasts

[douggg]

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth, heaven is opened, yes, but it is an assumption that He returns to planet earth in this text.

abcdef, if you go to Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the equivalent wording as of Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The heathen is just another word for the nations.    In verse 21, Jesus has returned to this earth, with Ezekiel 39:17-20 being Revelation 19:17-18.    

 

Here is a chart (probably more of an illustration) I made regarding Jesus's return, when Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, and the false prophet and the beast cast into the lake of fire.    

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by douggg

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

abcdef, if you go to Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the equivalent wording as of Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The heathen is just another word for the nations.    In verse 21, Jesus has returned to this earth, with Ezekiel 39:17-20 being Revelation 19:17-18.    

 

Here is a chart (probably more of an illustration) I made regarding Jesus's return, when Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit, and the false prophet and the beast cast into the lake of fire.    

 

 

 

Douggg,

If Jesus comes in Zech 14:3-4, why do the people flee through the valley?

 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

Douggg,

If Jesus comes in Zech 14:3-4, why do the people flee through the valley?

 

It implies that the Jews are in some sort of danger at the time.

Although it does not say in the text, imo, it appears that in Zechariah 14:3 since half of the city (Jerusalem) goes into captivity and the remaining Jews of the city not , that the strategy of the beast/the false prophet/Satan will be to hold the Jews as hostages in some way to keep Jesus from executing judgment on the wicked.

[abcdef]

37 minutes ago, douggg said:

It implies that the Jews are in some sort of danger at the time.

Although it does not say in the text, imo, it appears that in Zechariah 14:3 since half of the city (Jerusalem) goes into captivity and the remaining Jews of the city not , that the strategy of the beast/the false prophet/Satan will be to hold the Jews as hostages in some way to keep Jesus from executing judgment on the wicked.

Think about what you are saying.

Is Jesus not able to instantly destroy His enemies? Take their souls instantly?  Blind them? Confuse their language?

Zech 14:5, The people flee to the mountains, but why?

Wouldn't they be safe with Jesus? Wouldn't they be running to Jesus, instead of away from Him?

[DeighAnn]

43 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Think about what you are saying.

Is Jesus not able to instantly destroy His enemies? Take their souls instantly?  Blind them? Confuse their language?

Zech 14:5, The people flee to the mountains, but why?

Wouldn't they be safe with Jesus? Wouldn't they be running to Jesus, instead of away from Him?

Why flee?  

Because of the COMMAND. No other reason needed.  

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


We know this will be the epicenter of evil.  
Wrath and destruction are on the way, 

Remember Lot?  And learn from his wife, don't look back. 

[abcdef]

13 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Why flee?  

Because of the COMMAND. No other reason needed.  

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


We know this will be the epicenter of evil.  
Wrath and destruction are on the way, 

Remember Lot?  And learn from his wife, don't look back. 

Hi DeighAnn,

Just so you know where I'm coming from, both the Zech 14:1-11 and Matt 24 are about the 70 AD destruction after Jesus came the first time 30 AD ish.

--------------

In Zech 14, which destruction of Jerusalem is this talking about?

70 AD?

Pre trib?

Mid trib?

Post trib?

 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

53 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Hi DeighAnn,

Just so you know where I'm coming from, both the Zech 14:1-11 and Matt 24 are about the 70 AD destruction after Jesus came the first time 30 AD ish.

--------------

In Zech 14, which destruction of Jerusalem is this talking about?

70 AD?

Pre trib?

Mid trib?

Post trib?

 

 

 

 

Ok, first the 70AD

AS I seem to read this different than everyone I think  But You will know where I am coming from. 
see what you think, if you want to.  

 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  (70 AD)

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (70AD)

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
THE END OF THE 70 AD Prophecy.


So I went to check it out in the 
GREEK

AND HAVING GONE FORTH JESUS FROM THE TEMPLE HE WAS GOING AWAY AND CAME TO [HIM] THE DISCIPLES OF HIM TO POINT OUT TO HIM THE BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE

AND ANSWERING HE SAID TO THEM NOT DO YOU SEE THESE THINGS ALL? TRULY I SAY TO YOU NONE NOT EVEN SHALL BE LEFT HERE STONE UPPON STONE WHICH NOT WILL BE THROWN DOWN
The end of the 70AD Prophecy





[AS] WAS SITTING NOW HE UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES CAME TO HIM THE DISCIPLES IN PRIVATE SAYING TELL US
WHEN THESE THINGS WILL BE AND WHAT [IS] THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE?

And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

Tell us, when shall these things be? 

(AS IN "THESE THINGS" BEING THE NEXT TWO QUESTIONS)

1.  and what shall be the sign of thy coming, 2.  and of the end of the world?

AND THIS BEGINS THE ANSWER TO THOSE TWO QUESTIONS

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


 the question on Zech is explained in Zech because THIS ALL HAPPENS WITH THE CHANGE OF AGE, AND BODY.  

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
(we must remember who is in Jerusalem when the day of the LORD cometh.  Two dead witnesses and a bunch of tares partying around there dead bodies.  hopefully those who were told to flee have flown)

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And HIS feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(AS in get the hell out of there and run to the safety zone I have just created for you)

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

[abcdef]

9 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Ok, first the 70AD

AS I seem to read this different than everyone I think  But You will know where I am coming from. 
see what you think, if you want to.  

 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.  (70 AD)

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (70AD)

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
THE END OF THE 70 AD Prophecy.


So I went to check it out in the 
GREEK

AND HAVING GONE FORTH JESUS FROM THE TEMPLE HE WAS GOING AWAY AND CAME TO [HIM] THE DISCIPLES OF HIM TO POINT OUT TO HIM THE BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE

AND ANSWERING HE SAID TO THEM NOT DO YOU SEE THESE THINGS ALL? TRULY I SAY TO YOU NONE NOT EVEN SHALL BE LEFT HERE STONE UPPON STONE WHICH NOT WILL BE THROWN DOWN
The end of the 70AD Prophecy





[AS] WAS SITTING NOW HE UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES CAME TO HIM THE DISCIPLES IN PRIVATE SAYING TELL US
WHEN THESE THINGS WILL BE AND WHAT [IS] THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE?

And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

Tell us, when shall these things be? 

(AS IN "THESE THINGS" BEING THE NEXT TWO QUESTIONS)

1.  and what shall be the sign of thy coming, 2.  and of the end of the world?

AND THIS BEGINS THE ANSWER TO THOSE TWO QUESTIONS

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


 the question on Zech is explained in Zech because THIS ALL HAPPENS WITH THE CHANGE OF AGE, AND BODY.  

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
(we must remember who is in Jerusalem when the day of the LORD cometh.  Two dead witnesses and a bunch of tares partying around there dead bodies.  hopefully those who were told to flee have flown)

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:4 And HIS feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(AS in get the hell out of there and run to the safety zone I have just created for you)

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

So which is it? I can't tell from your answer.

Mid trib?

Post trib?

[douggg]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

Think about what you are saying.

Is Jesus not able to instantly destroy His enemies? Take their souls instantly?  Blind them? Confuse their language?

Zech 14:5, The people flee to the mountains, but why?

Wouldn't they be safe with Jesus? Wouldn't they be running to Jesus, instead of away from Him?

The Mt. of Olives is directly across the Kidron valley to the temple mount, and overlooks the temple mount.    That's where Jesus will be standing.

 

The Jews in Jerusalem will flee through the gap when the Mt. of Olives split in half, Jesus standing on the Mt of Olives - and head to the valley of the mountains - the Jordan river valley.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

So in the Jordan river valley, there will be mountains between the Jews and the armies who Jesus is going to destroy, in Revelation 19:21.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by douggg

[abcdef]

22 minutes ago, douggg said:

The Mt. of Olives is directly across the Kidron valley to the temple mount, and overlooks the temple mount.    That's where Jesus will be standing.

 

The Jews in Jerusalem will flee through the gap when the Mt. of Olives split in half, Jesus standing on the Mt of Olives - and head to the valley of the mountains - the Jordan river valley.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

So in the Jordan river valley, there will be mountains between the Jews and the armies who Jesus is going to destroy, in Revelation 19:21.

 

I am assuming that you are following the pretrib time line, please correct me if I am wrong on that.

-----------

So you say that the Zech 14 destruction is post trib.

The pretrib theory has the AoD mid trib. based on Matt 24.

The people are told to flee mid trib when the AoD/beast is in the temple and Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. We assume that they do.

Then they are in the wilderness for 3 1/2 yrs. (pretrib timeline), then they return to Jerusalem.

 

But now, at the end of the 3 1/2 years, when they are to return, they must flee again? 

It would seem that they never made it back to Jerusalem, where the beast is in control, in order to flee again.

How does that fit together?

--------------

Who attacks Jerusalem this time, as the Antichrist/beast has planet wide domination?

What army attacks Jerusalem in Zech 14 when the Beast has control at the end of the trib?

----------  

(Rev 19 shows Jesus in heaven. it is an assumption that He returns to planet earth in that text.)