Great Tribulation

[JohnR7]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

As it is to you, I might add.

Oh I agree what you are saying is hidden from me. I do not have a clue what you are talking about. 

[JohnR7]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You can't observe it. It was supposedly done 13.77 BILLION YEARS ago!

Of course we can observe "it". That is what astrophysics is all about. If physics is not your cup of tea that is fine. I enjoy "it". Everyone has their own gifts - talents & abilities in life. We develop what God has give us so we can bring Him praise, honor and glory. 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/8/2020 at 11:34 AM, JohnR7 said:

We have tons of evidence that includes fossils and dinosaur bones. It is plain and clear that God WANTS us to know and that is why He gives us all of the evidence to examine. We have fossils so common they are a dime a dozen.  I was at a gemstone show once and there was a guy there that wanted to give us fossils for free back when my son was young and impressionable. So we have our own little collection that we have discovered and found over the years. My son is very good at spotting that stuff. They delivered a load of limestone to us once for a project we were working on and he found a fossil in their right off. When they were building the new hospital here we were wondering around the excavation site with all the heavy earth moving equipment and he found a fossil there that they had dug up. He is just very good at stuff like that. This does not even get into man made artifacts and what man needed to survive in order to come up out of africa into the Tigris-Euphrates river valley where we find Eden - Adam and Eve around 6,000 years ago. 

And, 1,474 years after the Creation was the Flood - a GLOBAL Flood that was anything BUT "tranquil!" So, from where did all these fossils come? From the FLOOD! Why do you think that most of the fossils we discover were WATER produced, turning up in limestone and other sedimentary rock?  

Dating methods are very unreliable because they are susceptible to incursions and leeching of minerals and other substances that change the readings of the comparisons between the parent material and the daughter material. Furthermore, we don't know how much of the parent material and daughter material were present at the time the sediments were laid. Furthermore, decay rates may not be as stable as they claim. The half-life factor can change based upon a number of factors. And, it all depends on the system of decay materials. For instance, are they trying to use Carbon-14/Carbon-12 ratios (Carbon dating method), or a Potassium-Argon method or a Uranium-Thorium-Lead method, or ... ?

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For me it does not matter what you do. If you want to believe Science then believe Science. If you want to believe the Bible then believe the Bible. If you want to believe both then believe both because there is no conflict at all between true science and a proper interpretation of the Bible. Science goes a long way to help us to understand what God is speaking to us in our Bible. 

There IS a conflict between so-called "Science" and the Bible! That you can't see it worries me! There are so many inconsistencies between the death-before-sin method and the sin-before-death method that there can't help but be a conflict - a MAJOR conflict - between your "Science and Bible having no conflict" theory and the truth of God's Word! You are BASING your interpretation of the Bible upon the predicate of the PHILOSOPHY of so-called "Science!" That's BACKWARD! One's interpretation of Science should be based upon the Bible, not the reverse!

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The fate they are going to suffer is that their theory proves the Bible is accurate and true. So they will be without excuse. We can study the natural evidence that God has given us because He wants us to understand. He gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. We live in a time when Daniel says understanding will increase. The Bible is based on common ancestor. Adam, Eve & Eden. Science also is based on common ancestor and they use the terms Adam, Eve & Eden. There is a interesting book called: The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry by Bryan Sykes .  His book explains a lot. I believe a day will come when they will have the whole human race mapped out and we will know exactly who is descended from who. I am descended from a Bible Translator that was Bloody Mary's first martyr. We are told that God shows His: "loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments". (Exodus 20:6) So they talk about Generational curses that can be broken but also there are generational blessings that God gives us. 

There's actually a subtle difference in what Daniel's book says and what you just said. The messenger ("angel") in chapter 12 said, 

Daniel 12:4 (KJV)

4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

The Hebrew word is "haddaa`at," pronounced "hah-daw-(g)at'." This is the feminine form with the definite article meaning "the knowledge."

You said, "We live in a time when Daniel says understanding will increase." But, it's not "understanding" that will increase; it's "KNOWLEDGE" that shall be increased! Knowledge is information. What we can figure out from that knowledge is "understanding."  Understanding is the Hebrew word "biyn" and means "to discern, to perceive, or to recognize something." What we can deduce from that information is "understanding." That is NOT said to increase despite the increase in knowledge! And, Paul said it best:

Romans 1:18-25 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they (as a people and society) knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain (futile) in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator (HUMANISM), who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Truth.)

For all the increase in knowledge, they STILL manage to get the interpretation of that knowledge incorrect! And, why is that? It's because they REFUSE to retain God or give Him the glory in the increase of their knowledge! They haven't gained wisdom; they've become FOOLS!!! And, NO amount of accommodation and succumbing to their huge numbers will make them the wiser! They became fools when they dropped God out of their equations, and they will remain fools until God has destroyed them.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Retrobyter
a minor correction in my words

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, 1,474 years after the Creation was the Flood - a GLOBAL Flood that was anything BUT "tranquil!" So, from where did all these fossils come? From the FLOOD! Why do you think that most of the fossils we discover were WATER produced, turning up in limestone and other sedimentary rock?  

This thread is about "tribulation" so I am not going to go into a lot of detail about Noah's flood. If you want to talk about that you can start a thread and we can go into more detail. Let me give you a few key words so people can do a google search. First we have the Strait of Hormuz, then we have the Persian Gulf. Noah's flood took place when the Strait gave way and the Persian Gulf was formed in the Tigris - Euphrates River Valley. We can use photos from Google Satellite to determine exactly where the Garden of Eden was from the four rivers we read about in the Bible. 

The story in the Bible is what they call an archetype of the flood that took place in Pangea 200 million years ago. The Bible refers to this as Shadows and Types. This is why we find dinosaurs in flood deposits. All the way through the rocky mountains from New Mexico to Montana you will find dinosaur remains in flood deposits. This is evidence for Plate Tectonics. Kat Kerr in her book talks about a place in Heaven called Creation Lab where people go to see all the events that have taken place. The world was very different at the time of the dinosaurs. The sky was pink and very humid compared to the earth now. There was a lot more water in the atmosphere. We know this from the air bubbles God has given us to study in Ice Core Samples. 

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." (Genesis 7:11)

We see the exact day Noah's flood took place and we see what happened when the floodgates of heaven were opened and the springs of the earth burst forth. Bishop Ussher uses October 23, 4004 BC  as the date for he beginning of Adam and Eve. Some people use September 19, 4004 bc date. So we have a exact time and place for the literal flood in the Bible. We also know what that Noah's flood represents the flood that took place at Pangea 200 million years ago 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by JohnR7

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Dating methods are very unreliable

Where I live we have a lot of muck and clay deposits because of all the flooding that took place when the glaciers melted. Clearly there was a world here before the ice age. I have photos from where they built the expressway and from where they put the bridge in across the river so we can study the geology. When they are working on projects there is usually a group of hard hats standing around watching and supervising. If you talk to them they have people with PhD in geology that can explain a lot of that stuff. So we go from 200 million years ago to 12,000 years ago with nothing in between those layers. That was the ice age. Noah's flood was at the very very end of the world wide flood that took place at the Supercontinent of Pangea. In a way his flood was a part of the world wide flood. 

Creationists are right in that the Grand Canyon was created very recently though what they call catastrophic theory when the glaciers melted all that water had to go somewhere and the grand canyon was formed. Or more exact all of those layers were exposed by God so we could study the time that has passed before the great flood. Darwins buddy was a geologist and he developed a theory of gradualism. Darwin tried to adapt Charles Lyell theory for use with his evolutionary theory. That did not work out very well for him. I really don't care about their carbon dating theory because it takes a lot of adjustments to get it to work. They really have to fudge the results to get them accurate. 

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There IS a conflict between so-called "Science" and the Bible!

The problem is not with science and the problem is not with the Bible. When people get to Heaven all of this is explained to them. The problem is with man made understandings of the Bible and the man made "death before sin" theory. 

2 Peter 3:15 "Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One's interpretation of Science should be based upon the Bible, not the reverse!

Yes, this works both ways. Science verifies the Bible and the Bible verifies science. They have this cartoon where science is climbing one side of the mountain and religion is climbing the other side of the mountain and they meet at the top. 

You seem to be missing the point that SCIENCE is based on EVIDENCE. You do not have to agree on their explanation for the evidence but the evidence itself comes from God. He gives us that evidence to study because He wants us to know about His Creation. We also have artifacts or man made evidence that we can study.  For example the first thing we teach our sunday school children is about Joshua and the battle of Jericho. We have them march around the room and sing the song about how the walls came tumbling down. Even one year old as long as they can march they can play the game. If you go to Jericho today that wall is still on the ground. God has preserved it so that we can verify that the story in the Bible is accurate and true. Science shows us the Bible is accurate and true. You can go to youtube where there are lots of videos with the school children and what we teach them and what they are able to learn about the Bible. 

The discussion is open to anyone that wants to join in. I told my son do not waste your time on the discussion just do your homework and get your degree and that is exactly what he did.  There are to many people with a PhD in science that do not even have a third grade understanding of the Bible. A third grader can repeat verbatim at least 300 scriptures. That is one of the scams for raising money for missions is get people to pledge $1 for every scripture the third grader can quote and watch how surprised they are when they find out they have pledged $300. I have not found a PhD willing to memorize 300 scriptures to have a contest with the third grader. I came close once but he backed out when he figured out how much time he was going to have to put into that. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by JohnR7

[R. Hartono]

On 9/10/2020 at 4:31 AM, JohnR7 said:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". (Matthew 24:21) We also see this in Ezekiel 5:9, Daniel 12:1 & Joel 2:2 who tells us "such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come".

The Great Tribulation that Jesus is talking about took place in 70 AD when the temple was tore down. We are told that not one stone will remain upon another. The Church age actually began in 29 AD on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching in the upper room. It was 40 years later that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. 

We know the church age is coming to an end. I just wonder how the Great Tribulation of 70 AD relates to us today?  There is just not that much in the way of scripture talking about a Great Trib. I know lots of pastors preach lots of stuff but I want scripture and I want to know what the Bible says. 

The GT is revealed to John at Patmos island Circa 85 AD after the destruction of temple 70 AD. Thats why God give US the book of Revelation for the things to happen at Daniel's 70th week.

[Diaste]

On 10/5/2020 at 6:52 AM, JohnR7 said:

OR does not mean both, it means one or the other. Either or. The Bible is literal, symbolic & numerical all at the same time. A day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. A day is symbolic of all time and all ages. A day is numeral in that a day represents 1,000 years. 

 

We have science and history also. God gives us more than Scripture.  The Universe is said to be 13.77 billion years. The ONLY way this fits in with Genesis chapter one is if a day is half the length of the day before. http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

You can reject science if you want but Schroder has a PhD from MIT. So I am most likely going to go with that until you show me where you earned your PhD. For me it is pretty sad if you have to reject science to get your interpretation of the Bible to work. Science goes a long way to helping us understand our Bible and I believe that God gives us science for a reason. 

We do have death before sin, at least the sin of Adam and Eve because they lived around 6,000 years ago and there was plenty of death in this world before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Paul talks about "death by sin" (Romans 5:12)  I did a bit of research on this and every dead body before Adam and Eve was killed. Like Cain said: " whoever finds me will kill me". (Genesis 4:14) Cain had good reason to be worried. Often they find an arrowhead or spearhead in the body. At times the skull was smashed by a rock.   What is famous are the bodies they find in the bogs of England. Because they are so well preserved. In 1996, Bryan Sykes of the University of Oxford first sequenced the mitochondrial DNA from one of Cheddar Man's molars.

 

The only distinction is the first day. This was not day one, it was the beginning day. Then you could have day two, three, four and so on. 

Well...going with authority because it's authority and not because of fact or accuracy. Too bad. Your doctrine appears to have overcome common sense. Ever consider that everything we think we know is wrong? That we know only what we told, only what we are trained to know? 

[Diaste]

On 10/8/2020 at 6:22 PM, JohnR7 said:

Of course we can observe "it". That is what astrophysics is all about. If physics is not your cup of tea that is fine. I enjoy "it". Everyone has their own gifts - talents & abilities in life. We develop what God has give us so we can bring Him praise, honor and glory. 

Do tell how anything was observed before there were eyes and minds to see? 

Equations and philosophy are not observations they are deception.