Great Tribulation

[Diaste]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:28 PM, JohnR7 said:

So you admit then that you are misrepresenting what I am saying. Good to know. It is good to have feedback to know if people understand what I am saying or not. I took four teacher training classes at the Bible college so that is all a part of what they taught us. 

Not what I said at all.  But I see where the problem is now; Bible College. Mankind over the Spirit. 

[Justin Adams]

17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not what I said at all.  But I see where the problem is now; Bible College. Mankind over the Spirit. 

Sadly, the Augustinian (and others) view has well indoctrinated down thru the ages. Any stuff after 2010 and the translated cuneiform and other scripts, is way out of date.

Qumran was Providential. 

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not what I said at all.  But I see where the problem is now; Bible College. Mankind over the Spirit. 

That is an issue. The teacher training classes I took were pretty good though. You seem to be critical of people having different opinions from you. College should be all about people having the freedom to have their own opinion. This is a problem with communism. They want people to follow the party way of thinking and college students want to have their own opinion.  There is a underground church in China chomping at the bit to break out of their Government imposed restrictions. 

[JohnR7]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

they do NOT "all have INFINITE symbolic value!" ... That's what the word means. The "bet" is a "house."

Actually Bet means "tent". At the time Moses gave us the Torah they were living in tents. The main implication is the tabernacle and the Holy of Holies where God was. This has to do with the incarnation and God's desire to become a part of His Creation. 

Let us look at your definition of The: "bet" is a "house." Today people in large cities live in high rise apartments. This is a long way from the test they lived in at the time the Bible was written. If you go to different parts of the world homes are built out of different material. If you go into the future homes are going to be a lot different. For example they can build a home with a very big 3D printer. 

Perhaps the home or a dwelling may appear to be finite but the possibilities seem to be infinite to me. Every now and then someone like Buckminster Fuller will come along and break all of the conventions. I suppose that establishes a new parameter. Still there are an infinite number of possibilities even if you are creating a new limit. Or as my son would say even the smallest unit of measurement (Planck length) still has an infinite number of divisions. We are finite but God is infinite. This is how we know what is of God and what is of man. 

We know that Mandelbrot Set is infinite because it repeats itself. But there is also infinite sets that do not repeat. 

[Diaste]

38 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

That is an issue. The teacher training classes I took were pretty good though. You seem to be critical of people having different opinions from you. College should be all about people having the freedom to have their own opinion. This is a problem with communism. They want people to follow the party way of thinking and college students want to have their own opinion.  There is a underground church in China chomping at the bit to break out of their Government imposed restrictions. 

The issue isn't one of opinion. "A thousand years with the Lord is like yesterday when it passes, or a watch in the night." Does not mean a day is equivalent to 1000 years and is not foundational for such a doctrine.

With the Lord time doesn't exist. Whether that is as the Lord sees time, His existence apart from time, or how the translated believer experiences time in the presence of the Lord is debatable. What isn't in my mind is the cherry picked "1000 years is equal to one day" and ignoring "or as a watch in the night."

We don't arrive at truth by ignoring it.

[JohnR7]

On 9/25/2020 at 5:18 AM, Diaste said:

It can't be both.

OR does not mean both, it means one or the other. Either or. The Bible is literal, symbolic & numerical all at the same time. A day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. A day is symbolic of all time and all ages. A day is numeral in that a day represents 1,000 years. 

 

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nobody who wants to adhere to the Scriptures says the second part of this sentence!

We have science and history also. God gives us more than Scripture.  The Universe is said to be 13.77 billion years. The ONLY way this fits in with Genesis chapter one is if a day is half the length of the day before. http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

You can reject science if you want but Schroder has a PhD from MIT. So I am most likely going to go with that until you show me where you earned your PhD. For me it is pretty sad if you have to reject science to get your interpretation of the Bible to work. Science goes a long way to helping us understand our Bible and I believe that God gives us science for a reason. 

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The first and GREATEST flaw is that we would have a history marked with death BEFORE there was sin in the world.

We do have death before sin, at least the sin of Adam and Eve because they lived around 6,000 years ago and there was plenty of death in this world before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Paul talks about "death by sin" (Romans 5:12)  I did a bit of research on this and every dead body before Adam and Eve was killed. Like Cain said: " whoever finds me will kill me". (Genesis 4:14) Cain had good reason to be worried. Often they find an arrowhead or spearhead in the body. At times the skull was smashed by a rock.   What is famous are the bodies they find in the bogs of England. Because they are so well preserved. In 1996, Bryan Sykes of the University of Oxford first sequenced the mitochondrial DNA from one of Cheddar Man's molars.

 

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The Hebrew word for "day," again, is "yowm"

The only distinction is the first day. This was not day one, it was the beginning day. Then you could have day two, three, four and so on. 

[JohnR7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"1000 years is equal to one day" and ignoring "or as a watch in the night."

I have no explanation for what Moses is telling us about "a watch in the night".  So I have nothing to offer you to explain that.  I do know that we are in the latter days. We are not talking about a day in Genesis we are talking about the latter days. There must be a reason why they put this in with the psalms instead of in with the Torah. For the third time now, the conversation we are having is about Revelation 20:6:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev 20:6) 

We are told that we will rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. We know that the church age began on the day of Pentecost in the year 29 AD. So in less than 10 years the church age will have been 2,000 years. This is what is referred to often in the Bible as the latter day or the latter days.

"In the latter days you will understand it clearly" (Jeremiah 23:20) 

"In the last days terrible times will come" (2Timothy 3:1) 

"When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice." (Deut 4:30) 

"Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days." (Daniel 10:14) 

This is simple fifth grade math as we are told we have to become as a child to understand the Bible. Actually the 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus is pretty simple to understand also. Bishop Ussher and Lightfoot has it all figured out for us but the math is not that difficult if we want to verify their results. 

Again we are talking about Revelation 20:6. This has to do with the 1,000 year reign of Christ. They refer to this as the Kingdom age. When the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of God. This is an important time to live. Even going back to Enoch who saw this day: 

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied about them: “Behold, the Lord is coming with myriads of His holy ones" (Jude 1:14) People in the past look forward to this time and people in the future look back on this time. This is a very important time in History that we live in. 

We know that the age ends at the Great Harvest when the LAST person enters into perfection. There is a time when all of the church or Bride will be gathered together as we become one with Christ.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by JohnR7

[JohnR7]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Something I think you will find very useful are the Hebrew and Greek pages of BibleHub.com.

I spend a lot of time on Bible hub. There are a lot of difference resources there. I do remember before the computer how long it took to use Strong's to look things up. Now it is all there in an instant. What is interesting is books like Strong's that took a lifetime to write work on the internet very well. 

[WilliamL]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:31 PM, JohnR7 said:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". (Matthew 24:21) We also see this in Ezekiel 5:9, Daniel 12:1 & Joel 2:2 who tells us "such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come".

The Great Tribulation that Jesus is talking about took place in 70 AD when the temple was tore down.

Daniel 12:1 In that time Michael shall stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

In what time?

11:40 In the time of the end...

The complex series of multi-national events of Daniel 11:40-45, which precede the Great Tribulation of 12:1, were not fulfilled in the first century AD. So either Daniel was a false prophet, or else (assuredly) your eschatology is incorrect.

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 12:1 In that time Michael shall stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

In what time?

11:40 In the time of the end...

The complex series of multi-national events of Daniel 11:40-45, which precede the Great Tribulation of 12:1, were not fulfilled in the first century AD. So either Daniel was a false prophet, or else (assuredly) your eschatology is incorrect.

You missed the target by so much I am not even going to try to straighten this out.