Great Tribulation

[Justin Adams]

17 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

I have not found a PhD willing to memorize 300 scriptures to have a contest with the third grader.

Try Dr. Michael Heiser. A well known and revered Hebrew and ancient Language scholar.

[JohnR7]

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Do tell how anything was observed before there were eyes and minds to see? 

The early universe is still there. The light is just now getting here. WE can use a spectrograph to determine what elements are in the light.  God wants us to know what He has done and He leaves thing for us to study. 

[JohnR7]

58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Ever consider that everything we think we know is wrong?

Yes I do, esp when I go to the doctor. They are so sure they are right but over time everything changes. I ask them about it and they can not seem to make the connection.  New information comes along but the Bible is consistent and does not change. We just have a better understanding of what was there all along. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by JohnR7

[Retrobyter]

On 10/8/2020 at 10:38 AM, JohnR7 said:

The age of the Universe is based on the Hubble Space Satellite and Trigonometry.

Shabbat shalom, JohnR7.

Let's start with this: You do realize that most of this statement is false, don't you? Think about it:

When was the Hubble Space Satellite put in place? April 24, 1990, right? Since that time, it had to be serviced for a flawed primary mirror, failing gyros, new parts, a new, faster computer, etc.

From December 1993 to May 2009, it's had 5 servicing missions (SM1, SM2, SM3A, SM3B, and SM4) to make improvements, and no more servicing missions are scheduled. And, according to NASA, it has been responsible for 13 unique discoveries about the cosmos:

1. Discovering a runaway universe - Dark energy upends our understanding of the cosmos
2. Tracing the growth of galaxies - Creating a family album of galaxies to witness their evolution
3. Recognizing worlds beyond our sun - Hubble advances the quest for extrasolar planets
4. Shining a light on dark matter - Mapping dark matter to decipher its behavior
5. Realizing monster black holes are everywhere - Black holes are tied to their galaxies and other mysteries are revealed
6. Uncovering icy objects in the Kuiper Belt - Hubble finds moons around Pluto and zeroes in on other frozen objects
7. Studying the outer planets and moons - Storms, comet impacts and other outbursts from our neighbors
8. Tracking evolution in the asteroid belt - Hubble captures unique displays of shattering space rocks
9. Finding planetary construction zones - Hubble tracks planets forming in dust disks around stars
10. Exploring the birth of stars - The violent, dazzling process of star formation
11. Documenting the death throes of stars - Light shows from dying stars give clues to their ends
12. Seeing light echoes - A flash from a star illuminates its history
13. Viewing galactic details and mergers - Galaxies reshape each other in a slow dance over ages

-NASA.com

But, every one of these ASSUMES an evolution of stars and galaxies! The typical "life cycle of a star" is one such assumption:

Going from a nebula to a protostar to a main stage star (<1.4 solar masses) to a red giant star to a planetary nebula to a white dwarf star to a black dwarf star, for instance, is a development that NO ONE HAS SEEN! It's all assumed based upon mathematic calculations and assumptions of nuclear fusion. And, if the mass is greater than an amount of 1.4 solar masses but less than 3 solar masses, then the main stage star becomes a supergiant star which then supposedly to a neutron star. Anything greater than 3 solar masses decays to a black hole

ALL of this is PURE SPECULATION!!! NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN ANY STAGE BECOME ANOTHER!

Please understand this! The development of galaxies is even worse! Because of the speed of light being a constant of 186,000 mps or 300,000 kps, again, it's assumed that ultra deep field images show objects at various stages of development as far back in time as we can see far away. This gave rise to a supposed development of galaxies. However, once again, considerable assumptions were made! All they were really doing was zooming in on a 2-dimensional field of view assuming that smaller objects were farther away and that larger, brighter objects were closer. Thus, a two-dimensional view was INTERPRETED as a three-dimensional space. Did they really see farther away and thus farther in history, or were they just zooming in a two-dimensional plane in which they couldn't truly tell what was closer and what was farther away? That, too, is an assumption!

Let's go back to the Hebrew of Genesis 1: I want you to understand a FUNDAMENTAL KEY to the words used in Genesis 1.

The basic Hebrew word for "light" is "'owr," spelled "alef-vav-reish."

The "m-" ("meim-") prefix added to a word translates to "with-."

The "ha- ("hei-") prefix is the definite article which translates to "the."

The "l-" ("lamed-") prefix is the preposition "to" or "for."

The "la-" ("lamed-" with a "patach" vowel pointing simply adds the indefinite article, "a," to form "to a" or "for a."

The "laa-" ("lamed-" with a "qaamets" vowel pointing adds the definite article, "the," to form "to the" or "for the."

 

Genesis 1:3-5 says,

B'reeshiyt 1:3-5 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH, punctuation supplied)

3 Vayyomer Elohiym, "Yhiy 'owr," vayhiy 'owr.
4 Vayyar' Elohiym 'et ha'owr kiy towV, vayyaVdeel Elohiym beeyn ha'owr uVeeyn hachoshekh.
5 Vayyiqraa' Elohiym laa'owr "Yowm" vlachoshekh qaaraa' "Laaylaah." Vayhiy 'ereV vayhiy boqer yowm 'echad.

This translates directly to ...

3 And-said God, "Let-there-be light," and-there-was light.
4 And-saw God (next word is the direct object) the-light that-it-was good, and-separated God from the-light and-from the-darkness.
5 And-gave-a-name God to-the-light "Day" and-to-darkness "Night." And-there-was evening and-there-was morning day first.

(The word "'et" doesn't have an English translation. It simply means that the next word is the direct object of the sentence.)

Then, we read the following:

B'reeshiyt 1:6-8 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH, punctuation supplied)

6 Vayyomer Elohiym, "Yhiy raqiya` btowkh hammaayim viyhiy maVdiyl beeyn mayim laamaayim."
7 Vayya`as Elohiym 'et haraqiya` vayyaVdeel beeyn hammayim asher mittachat laaraaqiya`, uwVeeyn hammayim asher mee`al laaraaqiya` vayhiy keen.
8 Vayyiqraa' Elohiym laaraaqiya`, "Shaamaayim"; vayhiy 'ereV vayhiy boqer yowm sheeniy.

This translates directly to ...

6 And-said God, "Let-there-be an-expanse in-the-middle of-the-waters and-let-it separate between the waters to-the-waters."
7 And-made God (next word is the direct object) the-expanse and-divided between the-waters those lower to-the-expanse and-between the-waters those higher to-the-expanse, and-it-was so.
8 And-gave-a-name God to-the-expanse, "(dual) Skies"; and-there-was evening and-there-was morning day second.

Then, later, we read...

B'reeshiyt 1:14- (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH, punctuation supplied)

14 Vayyomer Elohiym, "Yhiy m'orot birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaVdiyl beeyn hayyowm uVeeyn halaaylaah; vhaayuw l'otot uwlmow`adiym uwlyaamiym vshaaniym. 15 Vhaayuw lim'owrot birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaa'iyr `al haa'aarets"; vayhiy keen.
16 Vayya`as Elohiym 'et sheey ham'orot hagdoliym, 'et hammaa'owr haggaadol lmemshelet hayyowm v'et hammaa'owr haqqaaton lmemshelet halaaylaah v'et hakokhaaViym.
17 Vayyitteen 'otaam Elohiym birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaa'iyr `al haa'aarets 18 vlimshol bayyowm uwValaylaah uwlhaVdiyl beeyn haa'owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh; vayyar' Elohiym kiy TowV.
19 Vayhiy ereV vayhiy boqer yowm rViy`iy.

This translates directly to...

14 And-said God, "Let-there-be 'from-light's in-[the]-expanse of-the-2-skies to-separate between the-day and between the-night: and-let-them-be for-signs and-for-holidays and-for-days and-years. 15 And-let-them-be for-'from-light's in-[the]-expanse of-the-2-skies to-give-light upon the-earth"; and-it-was so.
16 And-made God (next word is the direct object) two the-'from-light's great, (next word is the direct object) the-'from-light' the-greater to-rule the-day and-(next word is the direct object) the-'from-light' the-lesser to-rule the-night and-(next word is the direct object) round-objects.
17 And-put them God in-[the]-expanse of-the-2-skies to-give-light upon the-earth 18 and-to-rule in-the-day and-in-the-night and-to-separate between the-light and-between the-darkness; and-saw God that-it-was good.
19 And-there-was evening and-there-was morning day fourth.

Now, please bear with me: God put the LIGHTS in the EXPANSE between the waters below and the waters above (the EXPANSE called "the SKIES" or the earth's atmosphere), and THEN He made the "round objects" - the "stars!" Notice here that He didn't even say that He made the "sun" and the "moon!" The "sun" in Hebrew is "shemesh" and the "moon" is "yaareeach," and these aren't even mentioned (unless they're lumped into the "kokhaaviym" or "round objects")! No, God made "two great (big or bright) LIGHTS," literally called "FROM-light"s, instead!

Thus, God didn't wait around 1.3 seconds for light to get here from the moon or 8.333 minutes for light to get here from the sun! God didn't wait around 4.22 years for light to get here from Proxima Centauri, nor did He wait for 13.77 billion years for light to get here from the deepest point of the known universe! 

HE CREATED LIGHT EN ROUTE TO EARTH FIRST! THEN, "HE MADE THE STARS ALSO!"

On 10/8/2020 at 10:38 AM, JohnR7 said:

I took trig in college. This is the same science we use for GPS technology.

Good. I, too, took trig in college and as an independent study, I did all the problems in the textbook we were using to develop an answer key for the entire book. (Another student and I also made corrections to the answer key that was for every other problem in the textbook in the back of the book. [It was SERIOUSLY flawed!])

On 10/8/2020 at 10:38 AM, JohnR7 said:

We can also use geology to help us establish the age of the earth. In addition to the expanding universe the Moon is moving away from the earth and the spin rate of the earth is slowing down. This is causing the day to get longer. So there are many ways to verify our results. Both of my sons are engineers. The younger is a computer engineer with a minor in math and the other is a electronic engineer. So there is a huge amount of very advanced math that is a part of our household for many years now. My son is very good at developing formulas that save time.  There was actually a collision between the moon and the earth at one point in time. We can use this math to help us establish the age of our solar system.  If you use Gerold Schroeder (PhD MIT) theory on each day in Genesis is half the length of the previous day then all the pieces of the puzzle begin to fall into place. The Earth is 4.543 billion years old. So if day one was 13.77 and day two was half of that, then day two would have began 6.885 billion years. Day three would be 3.44 billion years. This is when the "the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit" So using Schroeders formula that is so easy a child can understand, we can begin to see how the Bible agrees with Science. In fact I have had an open challenge for years for anyone anywhere to use science to falsify the Bible in any way. No one has ever been able to do that. 

No, you can't "use geology to help us establish the age of the earth," if you continue to ignore the MASSIVE changes in that geology from the GLOBAL Flood of Noach's day! The GLOBAL Flood affected EVERY PART of the earth's surface! There was not a single mountain that wasn't covered by at least 15 cubits (22.5 feet) of water! They knew this from the clearance of the ark above the mountain tops! The ark snagged on NOTHING! It didn't scrape bottom on any solid object until it came to rest in the mountains of Ararat in eastern Turkey, once the waters began to recede a FULL YEAR AFTER the rains!

[JohnR7]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You do realize that most of this statement is false, don't you?

Your understanding of what I said is false. I am not saying this is the age of the universe. I am saying this is how science determines the age of the universe. God HIMSELF showed me in a dream that the Universe is expanding. He took me out into the Universe to show me. That was around 60 years ago and I still have a good memory of that dream. 

Both of my son's are Engineers. So I am pretty much up on math because of that. Esp my younger son has a minor in math because he has had to take so many math classes starting in high school. 

[JohnR7]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

ALL of this is PURE SPECULATION!!!

Your objective was to prove the "speculation" to be wrong and you have failed to do that.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Your objective was to prove the "speculation" to be wrong and you have failed to do that.

Shalom, JohnR7

Really? IF my objective was to prove the speculation to be wrong, I would have focused more upon that. However, my REAL ambition was to show you HOW such was indeed speculation! But, I have an even bigger concern: out of everything I talked about, out of everything I went through to provide you will a detailed interpretation of Genesis 1, that's ALL you got out of it?! Are you really so BLIND to the Scriptures that you won't even consider the argument from the Scriptures? If so, then I'm talking to a person who refuses to learn and there's no sense chasing after the wind. If not, and you truly ARE willing to take another look at these Scriptures, then MAYBE there's still a chance for you. (Only God can know.)

Furthermore, you've got to know this: I don't put much stock into dreams and visions when we have God's revealed Word. God is NOT going to contradict Himself! Are you positive that you got the RIGHT message from God? Was He showing you that the Universe was expanding, OR was He showing you how He made the whole field of light-wave/photon-packets AT ONCE and THEN created the so-called "sources" of those lights?

Did God create a baby and wait to see how he would look when he grew up, or did He create a full-grown man, followed by a full-grown woman, to begin the human race? If God created a full-grown man, why wouldn't He create a full-grown Universe? God made everything work like clockwork from the very start! Nothing had to "fall into orbit," such as the earth below our feet around the sun or the moon in our skies around our earth! There was no "wait and see what happens" with God!

REMEMBER THIS: GOD HIMSELF SAID,

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV) 

8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that iswithin thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

The Shabbat ("Sabbath") was created SPECIFICALLY during the first six-day Week!

Genesis 2:1-3 (KJV)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Only later do we read that God specifically said to the children of Israel,

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth anywork therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD (YHWH) made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.' "

So, the Creation was done within a week, less than 7 days, six days of work, or 6 days x 24 hours/day = 144 hours. And, just to be clear, that's 144 hours x 60 minutes/hour = 8,640 minutes, which is also the same as 8,640 minutes x 60 seconds/minute = 518,400 seconds. 

Even the symbiosis between certain plants and animals was created to happen that way! It didn't "develop over time" to become that way! Just as bees need flowering plants and flowering plants need the pollination process that bees supply, things had to happen SIMULTANEOUSLY!

These are just a few of the things that convince me to look to the Scriptures FIRST and then ONLY as the sciences agree with the Scriptures will I consider adopting them into my system of beliefs as a supportable truth.

[JohnR7]

On 10/13/2020 at 11:02 PM, Retrobyter said:

out of everything I went through to provide you will a detailed interpretation of Genesis 1, that's ALL you got out of it?!

The problem is you say things and do things that cause people to put you on ignore. There are lots of red flags in the post that you wrote. For example you say: "You do realize that most of this statement is false" That is not a very good way to start out your post because it is going to cause me to pretty much ignore the rest of your post. This is what we call a failure to communicate. I put time, effort and energy into learning about the Hubble. I am willing to share with people what I have learned but not if they are going to attack and flame me. 

There is a book written by Arbesman, Samuel called :"The Half-life of Facts: Why Everything We Know Has an Expiration Date"  This is a conversation I have with my doctor. They insist they know what they are doing and yet things keep changing. When you ask them they say we use to believe that, but now we do not believe that anymore. The fact that they were so wrong so often in the past leads me to be very skeptical of what they are currently telling me. Still this is all apart of the learning process. 

[JohnR7]

On 10/13/2020 at 11:02 PM, Retrobyter said:

I don't put much stock into dreams and visions when we have God's revealed Word.

This is a contradiction because "God's revealed Word" has LOTS of dreams and visions. Also God's revealed word show us how God works with people. There is no difference between the way God works in my life and the way God works in the life of the people that give us our Bible. Of course someone like Moses does 40 day fasts that I have not done. But if I did what Moses did, then I can pretty much expect to get the results that he got. I have done fasts so I do know that can be a powerful experience with God. The toxins in food tend to dull our senses. So it is nice to cleanse ourselves and it does help us to draw closer to God. 

This reminds me of the people that do not believe I was taken up to Heaven briefly to have a "conversation" with Paul. Yet they believe Paul when he tell us that he was: "caught up to the third heaven". If this is how God worked in Paul's life then we can expect to have similar experiences as God is no respecter of persons and this is how He is going to work in everyone's life. These experiences maybe rare, few and far inbetween, but over time they do add up.  Also at 68 years of age I getting closer to when I will be going to Heaven and God is doing more in my life to prepare me for that. 

As far as your question: "Is that all you got out of it". You need to keep it short and sweet. This is a media for people with short attention spans. Even sometimes we get lots of questions from lots of people and we only have so much time to work with. So we need to take this into consideration. This media does not lend itself to having to write out long explanations. 

[Diaste]

On 10/11/2020 at 5:19 AM, JohnR7 said:

The early universe is still there. The light is just now getting here. WE can use a spectrograph to determine what elements are in the light.  God wants us to know what He has done and He leaves thing for us to study. 

The point was fact can be added to the knowledge base only if it's observable, testable and repeatable. Science has replaced the fundamentals with equations; equations which can be manipulated in many ways for any answer we so choose. 

I go back to the climate quite a bit as an example. We have around 135 years of weather and climate data that seems to be reliable and is used by NASA and NOAA. Much of the early climate and weather data is anecdotal. From this 'science' fear mongers with climate change and global warming when they have no clue about climate conditions or weather patterns from 200 years ago. And if the claim of the earth's great age is true then the story of climate changes and global warming does not even rise to the standard of speculation; it's a fantasy novel.

Even then, when we have data, it's manipulated by the powers that be for an agenda. Tell me how there's an average global temp that's meaningful across different climates? You really think it's possible to average dissimilar data? You can't even do that in the 50 US states as climates vary from arctic to tropic. 

Let's take the average lifespan of men across the world. The average lifespan of men varies depending on the country or region. Once that is determined we could easily take the average of the average and find a global average lifespan for the male of the human species. In this case it's reliable as the subject of the study is similar; all men.

With climate it's not a similar subject. Blazing tropics to icy Arctics cannot be compared on an average. 

I don't mean to start a discussion on the weather. It's an example of manipulation by the Instrumentality and we see it in most of the so called 'science'.