The first of the seven warnings of plagues the earth will see.

[luigi]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Scarlet Colored Beast (Apollyon) indeed kills the Two-witnesses AFTER they have been witnessing 1260 days but BEFORE his 1260 days are up, because he dies at the 2nd Coming, via the 7th Vial, they die at the 2nd Woe. 

Jerusalem is not overrun prior to the Two-witnesses starting their ministry, if you would stop and THINK.......DO MATH, Simple Math at that, the above quote you just made proves your own assumption wrong. The Beasts total rule is 1260 days, that mean's from the time he conquers Jerusalem, until the time he dies. Thus if the Two-witnesses die first, and they do, at the 2nd Woe, that means they have to start their 1260 day Ministry/Office BRFORE Jerusalem is Conquered. This is simple math. 

Its 75 days later. 

You are making assumptions without supporting your perspective of the scarlet coloured beast being the angel of the pit Apollyon.

The angel of the bottomless pit Absolon/Apollyon who is the destroyer is the star/angel who is given the key to the bottomless pit from which the beast shall ascend.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I totally agree that at the sixth seal when the wrath of the lamb (Jesus) is come, is synonymous with the day of the Lord. This, however, is not the wrath of both the Father and that of the Lord Jesus until the opening of the seventh seal, which are the seven vials of wrath poured out upon the worshippers of the beast.

I see my typo error where I should have said the seventh trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:18 is when the wrath of the Father and the Son commences, which is also after the seventh seal has been opened in chapter 8.

Sorry, but the seventh seal is NOT the seven vials. How in the world do people come up with stuff so far from what is written?

A seal cannot be moved to somewhere else in Revelation. Such a theory will be proven wrong. 

It  is such a simple concept: the seals prevent a book from being opened to read and bring to pass what is written INSIDE the book. Once a seal is opened and that event begins, that seal is forgotten. Its main purpose was the seal the BOOK.

In chapter 8, when the final seal is open, the BOOK gets opened, and the first thing read is that 7 angels get seven trumpets. Then each trumpet is sounded. These are what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. 

By the time the first trumpet sounds,  ALL SEALS ARE FORGOTTEN, never to be mentioned again. 

Therefore, any theory that says the 7th seal is the 7 vials, will  be proven wrong. Any theory that says silly things like, "the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal" or any other such combination of trumpets or vials happening with any seal is IMPOSSIBLE. The seals seal the book, and once the book gets opened, the seals are forgotten. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, luigi said:

The beast makes war with the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 1,260 days of testifying. Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun, and once overrun is then is then the starting point in which the gentiles shall tread it underfoot for the 1,260 days while the two witnesses testify. The beast who ascends from the bottomless pit is part of the gentile masses who shall tread Jerusalem underfoot. After the beast contends with the two witnesses and kills them, there are then 3.5 days before the two witnesses are resurrected, and are called up to heaven, at which time there is a great earthquake, and the seventh angel sounds and declares the kingdoms of the earth are now become the Lords.

If the world's kingdoms become the Lord's kingdoms shortly after the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony, then the beast's 1,260 days reigning over all the world's kingdoms will have to coincide with these same 1,260 days. You cannot have the beast reigning the world's kingdoms while at the same time the kingdoms of the world are declared being the Lord's kingdoms.

The beast makes war with the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 1,260 days of testifying.  This is true. But does this beast from the pit (a spirit being) do it himself, or does he use the man-beast of Revelation 13? 

Next, WHEN are they killed? I am convinced they are killed just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. this means that start their testifying just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week. That is the timing of 11:3. 

Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun   Show a scripture to back this up. I don't believe it: prior to their arrival would be during the later trumpet judgments - first half of the week. I find nothing there to even hint Jerusalem being "overrun." It is before the abomination. I think the Gentile troops that trample the city will arrive just before the midpoint, but I would not call their arrival "overrun." I guess you do. Just remember, the man  of sin will seem friendly to the Jews UNTIL he is revealed as the Beast. It is not until He is revealed that He turns BEAST.  That would be shortly after the midpoint and it would be after Satan is cast down. Satan possesses the man of sin and he turns Beast. 

You cannot have the beast reigning the world's kingdoms while at the same time the kingdoms of the world are declared being the Lord's kingdoms.  This is MYTH. Who throws who into the lake of fire? Who is it that allows or delegates the 42 months to the Beast? It is JESUS CHRIST the SON. Where in Revelation do the kingdoms of the world get given to Jesus? Chapter 11. Where does the Beast arise? AFTER that, chapter 13.  Your theory then does not fit what is written.  The truth is, Jesus gets the kingdoms, then immediately DELEGATES 42 months to Satan and the Beast for HIS PURPOSES. The devil or the Beast does not STEAL those 42  months: they are delegated or given by the One who has all authority.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, luigi said:

You are making assumptions without supporting your perspective of the scarlet coloured beast being the angel of the pit Apollyon.

The angel of the bottomless pit Absolon/Apollyon who is the destroyer is the star/angel who is given the key to the bottomless pit from which the beast shall ascend.

No, he's a Demon. Angels are not locked in a pit. 

[luigi]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, he's a Demon. Angels are not locked in a pit. 

I agree angels who are our illuminators are not locked in a pit. What is locked is the means to access the power the in the bottomless/unlimited pit. The angel of the bottomless pit therefore provides the key/illumination to mankind to access the power to attain the power to the bottomless/pit.

[luigi]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but the seventh seal is NOT the seven vials. How in the world do people come up with stuff so far from what is written?

A seal cannot be moved to somewhere else in Revelation. Such a theory will be proven wrong. 

It  is such a simple concept: the seals prevent a book from being opened to read and bring to pass what is written INSIDE the book. Once a seal is opened and that event begins, that seal is forgotten. Its main purpose was the seal the BOOK.

In chapter 8, when the final seal is open, the BOOK gets opened, and the first thing read is that 7 angels get seven trumpets. Then each trumpet is sounded. These are what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. 

By the time the first trumpet sounds,  ALL SEALS ARE FORGOTTEN, never to be mentioned again. 

Therefore, any theory that says the 7th seal is the 7 vials, will  be proven wrong. Any theory that says silly things like, "the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal" or any other such combination of trumpets or vials happening with any seal is IMPOSSIBLE. The seals seal the book, and once the book gets opened, the seals are forgotten. 

Hello again iamlamad, I am once again trying to inform you that there are what appear to be two wraths. The first wrath is that of the lamb (the day of the Lord) after the opening of the sixth seal which precedes the opening of the seventh seal, and therefore precedes the wrath of God on the beast's worshippers. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, luigi said:

Hello again iamlamad, I am once again trying to inform you that there are what appear to be two wraths. The first wrath is that of the lamb (the day of the Lord) after the opening of the sixth seal which precedes the opening of the seventh seal, and therefore precedes the wrath of God on the beast's worshippers. 

OK, show is the verse where it specifies the wrath of the Father.

We know at the 6th seal both God the Father and the Lamb are mentioned, but it does say the wrath of the Lamb. It does say day of His wrath.  

Will you then say that the Day of His wrath is then different from the Day of the Lord written of time and again in the Old Testament? Lord in Hebrew is Jehovah or YHWH which I believe most people align with the Father. 

In other words, I want to see this second verse.

What are you going to do with your previous glaring errors?
" Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun" (it is still error)

"the opening of the seventh [Trumpet], which are the seven vials of wrath " (it is still error)

"The beast makes war with the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 1,260 days of testifying."  (Where in John's narrative: near the end of the first half of the week, or near the end of the last half of the week?)

"Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun"  (Show me the scripture for this. I don't believe it.)

[luigi]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

OK, show is the verse where it specifies the wrath of the Father.

We know at the 6th seal both God the Father and the Lamb are mentioned, but it does say the wrath of the Lamb. It does say day of His wrath.  

Will you then say that the Day of His wrath is then different from the Day of the Lord written of time and again in the Old Testament? Lord in Hebrew is Jehovah or YHWH which I believe most people align with the Father. 

In other words, I want to see this second verse.

What are you going to do with your previous glaring errors?
" Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun" (it is still error)

"the opening of the seventh [Trumpet], which are the seven vials of wrath " (it is still error)

"The beast makes war with the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 1,260 days of testifying."  (Where in John's narrative: near the end of the first half of the week, or near the end of the last half of the week?)

"Prior to the two witnesses testifying in Jerusalem, Jerusalem shall have been overrun"  (Show me the scripture for this. I don't believe it.)

You have to use common sense and deduce from the criteria provided. First: The wrath in Revelation 6 under the sixth seal is described as the wrath of the lamb. Second: This statement of wrath is declared by the faithless, and not by the Lord, which in comparison to the wrath of the Lord in Revelation 11 & 16 are declared by heavens hosts. Third: The description of the wrath events that transpire under the sixth seal are different from the description of wrath events in Revelation 11 & 16, which do match. 

So while I do agree that the events under seven seals are during the day of the Lord, I do not believe them to be the wrath of the Lord God that will commence at the conclusion of the beasts 42 month reign, when the kingdom will then be awarded to the saints, and the Lord will commence to reign on the earth. 

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

[iamlamad]

Just now, luigi said:

You have to use common sense and deduce from the criteria provided. First: The wrath in Revelation 6 under the sixth seal is described as the wrath of the lamb. Second: This statement of wrath is declared by the faithless, and not by the Lord, which in comparison to the wrath of the Lord in Revelation 11 & 16 are declared by heavens hosts. Third: The description of the wrath events that transpire under the sixth seal are different from the description of wrath events in Revelation 11 & 16, which do match. 

So while I do agree that the events under seven seals are during the day of the Lord, I do not believe them to be the wrath of the Lord God that will commence at the conclusion of the beasts 42 month reign, when the kingdom will then be awarded to the saints, and the Lord will commence to reign on the earth. 

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

First off, it is a mistake to form doctrine from isolated scriptures; rather, we form doctrine from every scripture on the subject. I agree, it was PEOPLE that said it was the Day of His wrath. But it was people that KNEW Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, saw the signs as written in those two passages and accurately said that this was the Day of His wrath OR the Day of the Lord: same thing.  If we study the OT scriptures on the Day of the Lord, then study the first trumpet judgments, they too prove that the Day of the Lord started at the 6th seal. So it really does not matter who said it: it was truth. Since the Day of the Lord all through the OT prophets was the wrath of the Lord, YHWH, then all we learn at the 6th seal is that the Son's wrath is added to the Father's wrath.

I do agree that the events under seven seals are during the day of the Lord  Can we PLEASE just follow John and not make stuff up? Seals 1 through 5 come BEFORE the Day of the Lord. They are not a a part of God's wrath. 

I do not believe them to be the wrath of the Lord God that will commence at the conclusion of the beasts 42 month reign, when the kingdom will then be awarded to the saints, and the Lord will commence to reign on the earth.   You want to try this one over? You are saying here that God's wrath STARTS at the beginning of the Millennial reign! 

Why not just have all wrath (the Father and the son) start at the Day of the Lord? That way, when wrath is written in chapter  11, it is only to tell us God's wrath has not abated: He is still angry. Then at the vials, they are FILLED with His wrath, so He is still angry. 

 

Luke 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (Who's wrath? What people?)

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (This would seem to say it is God's wrath since it is His judgment.)

1 Thes. 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (this seems to say Jesus delivers us from the Father's wrath.)

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 1 Thessalonians 2:16  Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

(These two together seem to say the saved Gentiles are saved from wrath, for the wrath is for the Jews. God's wrath comes on  them during the 70th week -  the purpose of which is to completely shatter their power.)

6th seal:  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  (This would seem to say that if we could see the Father's face, it too would show wrath.)

Rev. 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come...  (This is a Greek, Aorist tense verse, not inflected to show tense: in other words, there is no timing information given in the Greek verb. All we can tell from this verse is that either God's wrath was, or is, or will be. Since we know His wrath already started with the DAY of His wrath, then this just confirms He is still angry.)

Rev. 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...  (This wrath is for all who take the mark.)

 

Rev. 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  (God is STILL angry.)

Rev. 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.  (God is going to fill each vial with His wrath: He is STILL angry.)

Rev. 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (God is VERY angry now!)

Rev. 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

(God is STILL angry, but here manifested in the SON.)

Did you ever stop and think that the Father is the SOUL part of God - the part of God that is the WILL and emotions of God? (Jesus is the BODY of God, the Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT of God) We are made after His likeness. We too are Spirit, soul and body. Granted, at least why Jesus was alive on earth, he had Human emotions. I suspect He still does. He will forever more have a human body. 

When I take all these verses together, I really cannot separate the wrath of the Lamb from the wrath of God. 

Anyway, what difference does all of this make?

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

Anyway, what difference does all of this make?

The difference all this makes is that we can assess what is going on when.

The day of the Lord appears to be occurring with the seven seals, and the wrath of the Lord commences after the seventh seal has been opened, and at the end of seventh angels sounding. With all the chaos happening now throughout the world along with climate change events becoming more frequent and intense, I do believe we are now in the day of the Lord.