The Elephant in the New Testament

[Ocean]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:46 PM, Marilyn C said:

Now we have to be careful not to separate the Lord, the Head of the Body by making the Holy Spirit the focus. So, what really happened.

 

I would not know how to even begin to do that.

If I understand the role of the Spirit of God in our lives, without Him, we would not be able to have a relationship with our Father.  And that is just the beginning.

So again, how would a person go about making Him the focus when he basically helps US to focus?

 

 

 

[Ocean]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:04 AM, Dave-regenerated said:

The trouble with saying this, which is what all of your kind does, is that it is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  You can parrot it and say it that way until the cows come home, but if it isn't in the Bible anywhere, you are fooling yourself and your doctrine is dangerous for other people.

 

What does the expression 'all of your kind' mean?  It sounds like you are rejecting those who have received the gift of tongues.

Are you?

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Ocean said:

 

I would not know how to even begin to do that.

If I understand the role of the Spirit of God in our lives, without Him, we would not be able to have a relationship with our Father.  And that is just the beginning.

So again, how would a person go about making Him the focus when he basically helps US to focus?

 

 

 

Hi Ocean,

Good question, and I think I should have explained that earlier.

So, as I see it after the charismatic move in the `60`s & `70`s there was a strong emphasis on the Holy Spirit. It was good that the third person of the Godhead was being acknowledged, experienced and taught about. However, many people just seemed to think that the Holy Spirit was the main focus and sought the Spirit all the time.

Thus, the Head of the Body, Christ, seemed to be put in the background in people`s thinking. When actually the Holy Spirit would only do what the Head said, and also glorified Him not Himself. (John 16: 13 & 14) 

So, looking for `Spirit` has led to receiving all sorts of strange behaviour and teachings as people say it is from the Spirit. They do not have the plumb line of Father - Son - Holy Spirit, but just `spirit,` & that lays them wide open for all sorts of spirit (false) influences. These deceived people look for manifestations and the enemy can give plenty of those.

But is it in line with Christ`s character and His purposes? That is why we must always refer to what Christ our Head is doing through His Holy Spirit. 

Marilyn.

[Waggles]

10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

However, many people just seemed to think that the Holy Spirit was the main focus and sought the Spirit all the time.

Not everybody

There are good discipline Pentecostal churches that operate by the Book.

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Not everybody

There are good discipline Pentecostal churches that operate by the Book.

Hi Waggles,

I certain agree, and am very, very thankful for those who have kept to the faith and taught me, (Apostolic) Also, all my brothers and sisters across the Body wherever they may go to a public meeting of whatever name, who are holding fast to the truth they know.

Sorry if I seemed to give a wrong emphasis there.

Marilyn.

[Ocean]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ocean,

Good question, and I think I should have explained that earlier.

So, as I see it after the charismatic move in the `60`s & `70`s there was a strong emphasis on the Holy Spirit. It was good that the third person of the Godhead was being acknowledged, experienced and taught about. However, many people just seemed to think that the Holy Spirit was the main focus and sought the Spirit all the time.

Thus, the Head of the Body, Christ, seemed to be put in the background in people`s thinking. When actually the Holy Spirit would only do what the Head said, and also glorified Him not Himself. (John 16: 13 & 14) 

So, looking for `Spirit` has led to receiving all sorts of strange behaviour and teachings as people say it is from the Spirit. They do not have the plumb line of Father - Son - Holy Spirit, but just `spirit,` & that lays them wide open for all sorts of spirit (false) influences. These deceived people look for manifestations and the enemy can give plenty of those.

But is it in line with Christ`s character and His purposes? That is why we must always refer to what Christ our Head is doing through His Holy Spirit. 

Marilyn.

 

Hey Marilyn

Thanks for explaining. I absolutely agree that we have all kinds of odd things happening in some circles that are attributed to the Holy Spirit but they are really of another spirit and people seem to throw discernment out the window.  

Quote

deceived people look for manifestations and the enemy can give plenty of those.

sadly, so very true

there is a dire lack of teaching and so many believe that if you are in church, then everything is ok

an experience is not the measuring stick or guide for truth; we do have experiences that are of God but deception, once it gets hold, leads only to more of the same

Thanks again!

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ocean

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, Ocean said:

an experience is not the measuring stick or guide for truth; we do have experiences that are of God but deception, once it gets hold, leads only to more of the same

That is why there are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit generously dispersed within a Pentecostal congregation - the body of Christ - for the edifying and teaching of the saints. One of them being - discerning of spirits.

1Cor 12:7  But to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit. 
8  For to one is given through the Spirit a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 
9  to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 
10  and to another workings of powers; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits: to another kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues; 
11  but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally even as he willeth.

discerning and testing the spirits is vital - but unfortunately like the Corinthians there are those who are out out of order and dysfunctional.

Charismatics versus Pentecostals.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Waggles

[Ocean]

43 minutes ago, Waggles said:

That is why there are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit generously dispersed within a Pentecostal congregation - the body of Christ - for the edifying and teaching of the saints. One of them being - discerning of spirits.

1Cor 12:7  But to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit. 
8  For to one is given through the Spirit a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 
9  to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 
10  and to another workings of powers; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits: to another kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues; 
11  but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally even as he willeth.

discerning and testing the spirits is vital - but unfortunately like the Corinthians there are those who are out out of order and dysfunctional.

Charismatics versus Pentecostals.

 

 

Right

If we follow our Bibles and the instructions therein, we won't end up in the ditch

I really do not care to dogmatically follow a named organization.  As in if you want to belong here, then you have to do as we do.

[Starman]

Just want to say how much I appreciate this discussion.  I think all sides on the issue are making good points (though I’m not a fan of cessationism). Using the elephant analogy, I think we all see through a glass darkly, so are like the blind men and the elephant.  All are accurately describing a piece of the elephant.  And, rather than going ad hominem, we can graciously affirm that each view is valid and provides an opportunity to learn.  

Having said that, I think there is another piece of the puzzle to be considered: the idea of spirit, soul and body.  A balanced, mature believer is one whose spirit has come alive to God and is living in a continual connection and communication with the Holy Spirit.  This communication will include prayer in the Spirit, which for many, involves praying in tongues as described in 1 Cor 14.  The key to being a spiritual man, according to Paul in 1 Cor 2:10-15, is the ascendency of the human spirit over the soul (mind and emotions) and body, resulting in the Spirits dominion over the person, which is tantamount to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  This dominion not only ensures that the believer not fulfill the lust of the flesh, but also that the thoughts and fruit of the Spirit dominate the soul life, rather than subjective human thinking and emotion.  The dominance of spirit over soul involves a process of maturation, in which the believer is crucifying the flesh with its affections and lusts, and appropriating the nature of Christ.  The spirit man increases while the natural man decreases,  progressively asserting less control over the whole person. 

With these ideas in view I think we come to a more accurate assessment of the variety of Christian expressions which is, to a large extent, a matter of spiritual maturity as defined above. Some of the extreme emotional expressions of Pentecostalism are not necessarily wrong, but may be an unbalanced mixture of soul and spirit. This is a problem in the sense that it may create  a distorted view of the Lord (since He is Spirit, not soul), but certainly does not threaten a believers salvation.  Thus the cessationist accusations that these expressions are demonic and participants are unsaved are misplaced, and in fact rooted in prideful self-righteous deception.  The cessationist is typically also spiritually unbalanced since they have allowed their intellect and human reasoning to dominate and suppress their human spirit, causing them to reject the voice and moving of the Holy Spirit.

Both these categories of believer are inherently soulish and natural, rather than truly spiritual. Which, if we are honest, describes all of us to varying degrees. We all live somewhere on the continuum between the natural and spiritual man, so much humility in these discussions is appropriate.
 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Starman