Correct End Times Interpretation

[The Light]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since the first 6 trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week, of course #5 will  happen then too.

The 70th week of Daniel is the 1st six seals. The week ends when Jesus returns at the 6th seal. This is the same coming of Jesus that we see in Matthew 24 after the cosmic signs.

Rev 6

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which is the same coming of Jesus that we see in Revelation 14

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[The Light]

Wow, nice

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Wow, nice

You are simply too far off from center to even spend time answering. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

One verse? What are you talking about? The whole first chapter speaks to the nearness of the day of the Lord, the grain and drink offering stopped and the effects of the first and third trump present.

Joel is literally saying at the time the grain and drink offering has been stopped trumps 1-3 have sounded. 

The end of the grain and drink offering is at the A of D; the midpoint.

There is no guess at the timing.

"Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.

Consecrate a fast; proclaim a solemn assembly! Gather the elders and all the residents of the land to the house of the LORD your God, and cry out to the LORD."

"Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near, and it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes— joy and gladness from the house of our God?

The seeds lie shriveled beneath the clods; the storehouses are in ruins; the granaries are broken down, for the grain has withered away. How the cattle groan! The herds wander in confusion because they have no pasture. Even the flocks of sheep are suffering."

The day of the Lord has not yet come and the A of D has happened and at least 3 trumps have sounded. So the first trump cannot start the 70th week of Daniel as we see here the midpoint has already been reached and the first trump has sounded. This is past the midpoint which may suggest the trumps only sound in conjunction with the A of D or after. The only thing we know for sure is the confirming of the covenant is the beginning of the last week.

Joel here is saying that presently the fields are gone and the fire has scorched all the trees. This is not in the past tense, it's a current situation. If the fields has been burned three and a half years ago there would be at least one harvest and maybe two and the pastures would have l grown back fully by the next year. We used to burn fields and pastures specifically to bring them back even stronger. Burn in the spring and in two months you have green pasture even thicker than before. Same with the grain. Small grain grows to maturity in 90 days or less. Even if the fields were torched you just replant and in less than three months you can harvest. One may have to wait till spring to plant in northern climes but as you go south the growing season lengthens. 

So no, Joel is not speaking to 3.5 years prior. Therefore the A of D and the 1st trump occur within the same 3-12 month period, well after the start of the week.

 

One verse? What are you talking about?  Only making a comparison. Who knows: maybe it's a one to ten comparison. It is a fact: Revelation is the most complete passage we have on end times. 

Joel is literally saying at the time the grain and drink offering has been stopped trumps 1-3 have sounded.   This would be very difficult to prove. On the other hand, we have the trumpets written out with explanations in Revelation, which explains my comment: why not form doctrine from Revelation that has much more information?

The end of the grain and drink offering is at the A of D; the midpoint. I don't see it: can you prove it verse by verse or word by word?  On the other hand, Revelation shows us the fleeing that will begin seconds after the AoD; it is much  easier to see there.

"Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.  Please explain how you get timing from this verse. 

The day of the Lord has not yet come and the A of D has happened and at least 3 trumps have sounded. Sorry, but this is guess work here, where in Revelation it is very plain: THE DAY starts at the 6th seal (some say 7th) and the trumpets FOLLOW. The day then starts before the trumpets. it is MUCH better to form doctrine from clear verses when we have a choice. In Revelation the AoD is AFTER the first 6 trumpets, and that is very clear - no guessing on meanings. 

So the first trump cannot start the 70th week of Daniel as we see here the midpoint has already been reached and the first trump has sounded.   Sorry, but you are only GUESSING in the meaning in Joel. It is not made clear. I will take Revelation for doctrine any day over Joel. We form doctrine from the most complete passage on a subject, then fill in missing pieces from lessor scriptures. It is a fact, no one could ever determine where the 70th week starts, the midpoint, and the end, in Joel. In Revelation one can.  One very easy way to locate the midpoint is by when the fleeing starts: but Joel does not show us,  where Revelation does. Revelation shows us countdowns from the midpoint to the end - five of them: all assisting us to locate the midpoint. John shows us NONE.  There is ONE very clear verse in Joel, there will be signs in the sun and moon BEFORE the Day of the Lord. 

So the first trump cannot start the 70th week of Daniel as we see here the midpoint has already been reached and the first trump has sounded.   I don't buy it. You have given very little explanation as to your timing in Joel. And what you have suggested does not agree with Revelation. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is an argument from silence. Scripture says no such thing and there is no proof of 'special emissaries' status nor that they minister during wrath. The opposite is true, not one person of God ever suffered God's wrath.

 

We could say just about anything. That's not proof of when they are on earth. 

Yes. But many say the same thing about an 'experience with God'. I understand you believe this to be valid but with so many saying 'God told me' and then having several different 'words from God' it's just not credible. Sorry about that. 

But you do this all the time.

Not a shred of evidence allows this conclusion. In a strict chronology the wrath of God would begin immediately upon the arrival of the two witnesses as would the judging of the dead; "

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead"

Not a strict chronology.

"Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months. And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”" 

Looks like the 42 months of trampling is the same period of 1260 days of the witnesses.

Well, one had best use reason else how does one arrive at a valid conclusion? The entirety of the Pauline Epistles are chock full of reasoning. 
 

Really?

Speaking of the days of GT and His coming;

"If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Andc

Your math is correct. Not the conclusion. 

From January 1st 2020 to July 1st 2023 is 42 full months to the day. That can be accurate in any calendar with monthly divisions. If a month is 30 days exactly then 42 full months=1260 days, to the day and even the hour.

Scripture says no such thing and there is no proof of 'special emissaries' status nor that they minister during wrath. The opposite is true, not one person of God ever suffered God's wrath. Wrong on both points. There Is proof. Where is it ever written that the average believe sends fire out of their mouth to destroy their adversaries? Next, your timing is mixed up. Look, I did not write Revelation, John did, backed by the Holy Spirit. And GOD chose chapter 11:3 to start the passage on the two witnesses. And if you look at verse 2, it can be proven to be a midpoint chapter. People can "reason" all they want, but we have to go by what is written. They BEGIN their testimony at the midpoint of the week. How in the world can you get around that?

All I am saying is, reasoning cannot in any way get around the clear understanding of scripture. I will agree, some scriptures are obscure and we must reason. It takes no reasoning (or very little) to discover that the Two Witnesses show up and begin right at the midpoint. (Chapter 11 is proven to be a midpoint chapter.)

WHO EVER said they are going to SUFFER? It is clear that they have supernatural protection. Unlike the remnant of the saints, they will be supernaturally protected.  (Do you really think - after someone has spent 2000 years in God's presence that they are going to suffer in any way? No one could harm Elijah while he was alive on earth. He will be even more protected when He comes again. 

But many say the same thing about an 'experience with God'.  I have yet to see anyone else write down the actual words spoken.  Did you read and judge, as Paul said we should? Did you ask yourself if those words could come from our Lord? In other words, could you prove them in error with scripture?

But you do this all the time.  If God taught YOU, would you then allow others to talk you out of it? I know whom I have believed..... If this was a false spirit, then it should be easy to prove with scripture.

In a strict chronology the wrath of God would begin immediately upon the arrival of the two witnesses as would the judging of the dead; "  That is PURE human reasoning! There is no scripture even hinting at such a thing. The Two Witnesses do not come to judge the dead! Novel idea: why not just allow John to TELL US where the Day of His wrath begins? 

Anyway, during the first half of the week, God is going to have 144,000 witnesses. But WHO will He have for the second half? Only these Two.

 

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead"

Not a strict chronology.  This is PROPHECY: can't you recognize prophecy: a foretelling of the future? Who said it? The 24 elders. Where do we read of judging the dead? In chapter 20, not in chapter 11. The elders are prophesying of soon to come events. As for wrath, it started at the 6th or 7th seal. Here it is only telling us God is STILL angry. 

Looks like the 42 months of trampling is the same period of 1260 days of the witnesses.  WOW! Brilliant deduction! I agree completely. I think these two countdowns will begin on the same day. 

they are cut short at the appearance of the Lord. That is what's written! True, "those days" of GT are cut short, as in they will not last the entire 42 months of authority; the 42 months will last, but they will not all be days of GT 

[The Light]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are simply too far off from center to even spend time answering. 

I guess you don't think that Jesus and John tell the same endtime explanation? If they don't agree, which one of them do you think is wrong?

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHO EVER said they are going to SUFFER? It is clear that they have supernatural protection. Unlike the remnant of the saints, they will be supernaturally protected.  (Do you really think - after someone has spent 2000 years in God's presence that they are going to suffer in any way? No one could harm Elijah while he was alive on earth. He will be even more protected when He comes again

Made up. It's just too much rationalizing. You are reasoning into it with the above.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But many say the same thing about an 'experience with God'.  I have yet to see anyone else write down the actual words spoken.  Did you read and judge, as Paul said we should? Did you ask yourself if those words could come from our Lord? In other words, could you prove them in error with scripture?

Seriously? All the books that have been written about what God has supposedly said about various topics? The false predictions of the rapture? The rapture dreams that are all over YouTube? Even on this site one sees 'God told me." in any number of discussions and the supposed word from God is contradicted by others who say God told them. 

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But you do this all the time.  If God taught YOU, would you then allow others to talk you out of it? I know whom I have believed..... If this was a false spirit, then it should be easy to prove with scripture.

No I would not. The inerrancy of truth is contained in scripture and not in midnight musings. I have heard several prophecies from all over during decades. I don't think any came to pass as spoken. The televangelists have been proven false teachers again and again, especially with the tithe, and yet the people flock to them. How would one go about proving truth when the people so love the lies?

Maybe you are on to something. Time will tell. I don't see it at this point.

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In a strict chronology the wrath of God would begin immediately upon the arrival of the two witnesses as would the judging of the dead; "  That is PURE human reasoning! There is no scripture even hinting at such a thing. The Two Witnesses do not come to judge the dead! Novel idea: why not just allow John to TELL US where the Day of His wrath begins? 

Anyway, during the first half of the week, God is going to have 144,000 witnesses. But WHO will He have for the second half? Only these Two.

If the 7th trump is the midpoint then the following will happen at the midpoint:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead..."

What you are saying is that Jesus will begin His reign at the midpoint, wrath begins at the midpoint, judging the dead comes at the midpoint. That's what you say. I don't. It's your reasoning; not mine.

Matt 24 rejects such an idea and places the coming of the Lord after the midpoint and after GT. 

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not a strict chronology.  This is PROPHECY: can't you recognize prophecy: a foretelling of the future? Who said it? The 24 elders. Where do we read of judging the dead? In chapter 20, not in chapter 11. The elders are prophesying of soon to come events. As for wrath, it started at the 6th or 7th seal. Here it is only telling us God is STILL angry. 

Chapter divisions do not designate chronology. In fact the divisions of chapter and verse is only for organizing to allow for search and reference. These divisions have nothing to do with the truth of scripture. It's obvious some chapters do follow others but that's happenstance and not a reliable guide. Chapter 11 says, "The time has come to judge the dead..." I'm pointing out the events as described at the 7th trump cannot be the midpoint; that the actual moment of judgement has not come; nor the does the reign of Christ begin at the 7th trump, nor does the wrath of God begin at the midpoint.

Matt 24 makes clear the A of D happens at the midpoint and then GT, and then only after GT is ended does wrath begin, well past the midpoint. Since wrath begins at the 7th trump the 7th trump is not the midpoint.

By scripture. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One verse? What are you talking about?  Only making a comparison. Who knows: maybe it's a one to ten comparison. It is a fact: Revelation is the most complete passage we have on end times. 

Agree.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Joel is literally saying at the time the grain and drink offering has been stopped trumps 1-3 have sounded.   This would be very difficult to prove. On the other hand, we have the trumpets written out with explanations in Revelation, which explains my comment: why not form doctrine from Revelation that has much more information?

Only because you don't want it to be the truth as it wrecks the pretrib doctrine. 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The end of the grain and drink offering is at the A of D; the midpoint. I don't see it: can you prove it verse by verse or word by word?  On the other hand, Revelation shows us the fleeing that will begin seconds after the AoD; it is much  easier to see there.

"Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests; wail, O ministers of the altar. Come, spend the night in sackcloth, O ministers of my God, because the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.  Please explain how you get timing from this verse. 

 

Well, Matthew 24 makes it pretty clear they are going to flee at the A of D. That doesn't negate some trumps sounding before the A of D or at the A of D.

Jesus told us to look to Daniel for the A of D understanding. Daniel says, " but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Daniel here refers to a grain offering or bread and oil. Joel uses the same terms. Joel is literally saying at the time grain and drink offering is over and the pastures are dried up, "

3Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

14Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders [and] all the inhabitants of the land [into] the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." 

When do you suppose this is occurring? 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The day of the Lord has not yet come and the A of D has happened and at least 3 trumps have sounded. Sorry, but this is guess work here, where in Revelation it is very plain: THE DAY starts at the 6th seal (some say 7th) and the trumpets FOLLOW. The day then starts before the trumpets. it is MUCH better to form doctrine from clear verses when we have a choice. In Revelation the AoD is AFTER the first 6 trumpets, and that is very clear - no guessing on meanings. 

No. The coming of the Lord at the 6th seal is the same coming of the Lord in Matt 24. This is well after the midpoint, the midpoint where the A of D occurs. That's not guess work. It's abundantly clear. The Day of the Lord does begin at the 6th seal but the A of D has already happened before the 6th seal.

There is no timing in Rev for the A of D in relation to the trumps. We must look elsewhere. I agree that Rev is a profound document. But it's not comprehensive. You ignore other evidence of truth.

 

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So the first trump cannot start the 70th week of Daniel as we see here the midpoint has already been reached and the first trump has sounded.   Sorry, but you are only GUESSING in the meaning in Joel. It is not made clear. I will take Revelation for doctrine any day over Joel. We form doctrine from the most complete passage on a subject, then fill in missing pieces from lessor scriptures. It is a fact, no one could ever determine where the 70th week starts, the midpoint, and the end, in Joel. In Revelation one can.  One very easy way to locate the midpoint is by when the fleeing starts: but Joel does not show us,  where Revelation does. Revelation shows us countdowns from the midpoint to the end - five of them: all assisting us to locate the midpoint. John shows us NONE.  There is ONE very clear verse in Joel, there will be signs in the sun and moon BEFORE the Day of the Lord. 

 

And that is your biggest weakness in understanding; you prefer some scripture over other scripture not realizing it's all truth of the highest order and is not on a sliding scale or a continuum. There is no such thing as 'lessor scripture'.  

Another blow to your understanding is not realizing all the facts must be accounted for all the time. Do you suppose Jesus made mistakes when giving the prophets the prophecies? I think you do.

There is a story that is true. The relevant facts are true. We know this because our Lord God Jesus Christ gave us both the story and the facts. Facts originating from Jesus Christ through the prophets are gathered and added to the story.  The story becomes more clear as the relevant facts are added. Those relevant facts come from every designated source through the words of Christ. 

You form a hierarchy of fact. I reject this and no doubt it's rejected in the heavenlies as well.

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

So the first trump cannot start the 70th week of Daniel as we see here the midpoint has already been reached and the first trump has sounded.   I don't buy it. You have given very little explanation as to your timing in Joel. And what you have suggested does not agree with Revelation. 

Your personal rejection of all the facts is troubling. But you do as you see fit. I don't have to answer for it. For now I'm out. I'm sure we'll talk more later.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Agree.

Only because you don't want it to be the truth as it wrecks the pretrib doctrine. 

 

Well, Matthew 24 makes it pretty clear they are going to flee at the A of D. That doesn't negate some trumps sounding before the A of D or at the A of D.

Jesus told us to look to Daniel for the A of D understanding. Daniel says, " but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Daniel here refers to a grain offering or bread and oil. Joel uses the same terms. Joel is literally saying at the time grain and drink offering is over and the pastures are dried up, "

3Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

14Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders [and] all the inhabitants of the land [into] the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." 

When do you suppose this is occurring? 

No. The coming of the Lord at the 6th seal is the same coming of the Lord in Matt 24. This is well after the midpoint, the midpoint where the A of D occurs. That's not guess work. It's abundantly clear. The Day of the Lord does begin at the 6th seal but the A of D has already happened before the 6th seal.

There is no timing in Rev for the A of D in relation to the trumps. We must look elsewhere. I agree that Rev is a profound document. But it's not comprehensive. You ignore other evidence of truth.

 

 

And that is your biggest weakness in understanding; you prefer some scripture over other scripture not realizing it's all truth of the highest order and is not on a sliding scale or a continuum. There is no such thing as 'lessor scripture'.  

Another blow to your understanding is not realizing all the facts must be accounted for all the time. Do you suppose Jesus made mistakes when giving the prophets the prophecies? I think you do.

There is a story that is true. The relevant facts are true. We know this because our Lord God Jesus Christ gave us both the story and the facts. Facts originating from Jesus Christ through the prophets are gathered and added to the story.  The story becomes more clear as the relevant facts are added. Those relevant facts come from every designated source through the words of Christ. 

You form a hierarchy of fact. I reject this and no doubt it's rejected in the heavenlies as well.

 

Your personal rejection of all the facts is troubling. But you do as you see fit. I don't have to answer for it. For now I'm out. I'm sure we'll talk more later.

Only because you don't want it to be the truth as it wrecks the pretrib doctrine.   I believe pretrib only because I see in clearly in the bible. There are no "wants." That is kid's stuff. 

Matthew 24 makes it pretty clear they are going to flee at the A of D. That doesn't negate some trumps sounding before the A of D or at the A of D. Again, when we know that the 70th week  is marked by 7's in Revelation,  it is very easy to see that 6 trumpets sound before the AoD and the 7th sounds AT the AoD.  The fleeing is in 12:6, so that verses is maybe 2 seconds after the AoD.  The AoD will divide the week. This is proven in Revelation by the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end in chapters 11, 12, 13.

Daniel here refers to a grain offering or bread and oil.  Why not sheep as the daily sacrifice? I may be the grain for "offering" that is done with the sacrifice. 

Joel is literally saying at the time grain and drink offering is over and the pastures are dried up, "

Commentary;  "Joel 1:9-10. The meat-offering and the drink-offering — These offerings always accompanied the daily sacrifice:" OK, I can agree, the at this verse the daily sacrifices are suspended. 

When do you suppose this is occurring? 

I think he is telling us some of what will happen DURING the Day of the Lord. He is warning them of the future. He is still warning them that "the Day" is still coming in 2:31. He is giving them snippets of what it will be like WHEN it comes. In other words, joel, like most of the OT prophesies, are not written chronologically. Revelation is.

The coming of the Lord at the 6th seal is the same coming of the Lord in Matt 24.   Now you have broken the cardinal rule and rearranged Revelation. Your theory will be proven wrong. You see, the chapter in Revelation that fits Matthew 24's coming is Rev. 19. The whole church world would agree the Rev. 19 coming is the coming "after the tribulation of those days." Now you are saying it is the same coming as at the 6th seal. You might as well come out and say, the Rev. 19 coming is at the 6th seal, or the 6th seal coming is the Rev. 19 coming. I have always said, any rearranging like that is a guarantee of false doctrine. 

the same coming of the Lord in Matt 24. This is well after the midpoint, the midpoint where the A of D occurs. Yes, of course His coming as shown in Mat. 24 is after the division point of the week, because it is after the ENTIRE week: "after the tribulation of those days..."

That's not guess work. It's abundantly clear. In Revelation, it is abundantly clear. In Joel it is not so clear. 

The Day of the Lord does begin at the 6th seal but the A of D has already happened before the 6th seal.  Amazing! Simply amazing how you rearrange Revelation to fit some theory. Why not FORM your theory from Revelation and be right? It is so easy to pinpoint the AoD in Revelation: where does the fleeing start? Of course, 12:6. It is so easy to find the midpoint (caused or marked by the AoD) in Revelation: find the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end: two given in days, two given in months, and one given as "times." (Chapters 11, 12, and 13 are the midpoint chapters.)

There is no timing in Rev for the A of D in relation to the trumps. We must look elsewhere. Sorry, but you misspoke. What you should have said is "I can't find timing for the AoD in Revelation. I just gave you TWO WAYS to find it in my previous answer. OF COURSE you can find the AoD in Revelation: it is the event that will divide the week. 

You ignore other evidence of truth.  Many people make the mistake of forming doctrine in other passages, then are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit. BIG MISTAKE. I have not made that mistake. I formed my doctrine from Revelation, the most complete thesis on the end times.

you prefer some scripture over other scripture not realizing it's all truth of the highest order and is not on a sliding scale or a continuum. There is no such thing as 'lessor scripture'.    Why then do you suppose some of the books in the OT are called MINOR prophets? I mean lessor as in SIZE and completeness. For some, their method is  like  trying to form end time doctrine from the book of Genesis - There may be some shadows or hints in Genesis. The truth is, Revelation is the most complete treatise on the end times. Wisdom decrees we form our end time doctrine from the most complete treatise. We can use the minor prophets to fill in missing pieces. For example, in Joel 2 we have a very clear statement: there will be signs in the sun and moon BEFORE the Day of the Lord. There is no way to confuse such a verse. (The "sliding scale" would on the size or completeness of each end time passage. For example, inn Matthew 24, Jesus speaks OF the days of GT, but gives us no hint of how and why, and only one statement as to when. In Revelation we find out WHO is responsible (the Beast and FP), HOW the days of GT come about (they force people to bow and to take their mark upon threat of death), and WHEN they begin (late in chapter 14). 

We all have this choice: someone could try and form their end time doctrine using only Malachi. It would not be a very complete doctrine. Some try to form their end time doctrine using only Matthew 24. This is like trying to put a puzzle together with half the pieces missing and no picture.  The truth is, no one should form doctrine from isolated verses, but rather from ALL end time passages. For example, someone forms a theory from Reading Joel 1. They should then challenge that theory in Revelation to see if it fits there. OF COURSE it is all truth; but some end time passages is much clearer than others. Mattthew 24 is very easy to understand and from there we can get a good picture. But where Matthew may have one sentence, Revelation may have a chapter. 

And that is your biggest weakness in understanding  And you suppose I have a weakness for the simple reason you don't agree. Perhaps the weakness is in your theories. That too would cause disagreement. Example:  When John shows us the fleeing (from the AoD in chapter 12), how in the world can you say it happens before the Day of the Lord in chapter 6? 

Do you suppose Jesus made mistakes when giving the prophets the prophecies? I think you do. You made me laugh. Why would you think such a thing? It is because what I write disagrees with your theories. You have (apparently) formed a theory from Joel 1, imagining it was written chronologically. Yet, if you had consulted Revelation, you would have discovered a disagreement with your theory. There is an obvious answer: either Joel or Revelation is NOT chronological. Therefore, there is a much better explanation that imagining I think Jesus made mistakes! (We are suppose to think the BEST of our brothers and sisters in the Lord, not  the worst! ;-)... )

You form a hierarchy of fact.   Not true.  I just know some prophecies are written chronologically and others are not. I know Revelation is the LATEST (in time) Revelation given, and I know it is the most complete. But, it is not as easy to understand as the Olivet Discourse of Jesus. When one does gain some understanding of Revelation, it becomes easy to spot end time errors in theory. 

Your personal rejection of all the facts is troubling.  And of course you say this because you believe your theory, and don't believe mine, because they differ. Here is a fact: I have proved some of your theory wrong in this one post. 

"There is no timing in Rev for the A of D in relation to the trumps."

This is absolutely false. The truth is, you have not found it, so you assume it is not there.

I think what I have uncovered is this: what you assume are "facts" of scripture, really are not. You may perceive "facts" which are just wrong perceptions. Joel is not an exact chronological book. It is difficult to get an accurate chronology from Joel in many places. In Joel 2:31 we can get a definite order. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Made up. It's just too much rationalizing. You are reasoning into it with the above.

Seriously? All the books that have been written about what God has supposedly said about various topics? The false predictions of the rapture? The rapture dreams that are all over YouTube? Even on this site one sees 'God told me." in any number of discussions and the supposed word from God is contradicted by others who say God told them. 

 

No I would not. The inerrancy of truth is contained in scripture and not in midnight musings. I have heard several prophecies from all over during decades. I don't think any came to pass as spoken. The televangelists have been proven false teachers again and again, especially with the tithe, and yet the people flock to them. How would one go about proving truth when the people so love the lies?

Maybe you are on to something. Time will tell. I don't see it at this point.

If the 7th trump is the midpoint then the following will happen at the midpoint:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead..."

What you are saying is that Jesus will begin His reign at the midpoint, wrath begins at the midpoint, judging the dead comes at the midpoint. That's what you say. I don't. It's your reasoning; not mine.

Matt 24 rejects such an idea and places the coming of the Lord after the midpoint and after GT. 

 

Chapter divisions do not designate chronology. In fact the divisions of chapter and verse is only for organizing to allow for search and reference. These divisions have nothing to do with the truth of scripture. It's obvious some chapters do follow others but that's happenstance and not a reliable guide. Chapter 11 says, "The time has come to judge the dead..." I'm pointing out the events as described at the 7th trump cannot be the midpoint; that the actual moment of judgement has not come; nor the does the reign of Christ begin at the 7th trump, nor does the wrath of God begin at the midpoint.

Matt 24 makes clear the A of D happens at the midpoint and then GT, and then only after GT is ended does wrath begin, well past the midpoint. Since wrath begins at the 7th trump the 7th trump is not the midpoint.By scripture. 

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead..."

I don't see this as all happening in the time-frame of chapter 11. I see it is the elders prophesying. Why? Because I see the judging in Chapter 20. As for wrath, it began back at the 6th or 7th seal. They are only acknowledging God is still angry. 

Made up. It's just too much rationalizing.  Sorry, but I heard a  voice and WORDS. There is no rationalizing in that. Paul wrote that others are to judge. He did not mean judge by human thinking, but judge by God's written word. For example, He said, “Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3½ year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3½ years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.”  Can you prove this wrong by scripture?  When any of us say "God said" or "God told me" this should be our response: see if it agrees with scripture.

For example, can anyone prove that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are NOT midpoint chapters? Can anyone prove by scripture that all five of these mentions of a countdown to the end is NOT to go from the midpoint to the end of the week?

Even on this site one sees 'God told me." in any number of discussions and the supposed word from God is contradicted by others who say God told them.  Exactly! It is why we have "umpteen" different protestant denominations, each with their own doctrines. One thing is clear, someone is not hearing from the God of creation!

What you are saying is that Jesus will begin His reign at the midpoint, wrath begins at the midpoint, judging the dead comes at the midpoint. That's what you say. I don't. It's your reasoning; not mine.  No, that is not at all what I am saying. I am amazed you THINK this is what I am saying. There are THREE THINGS that happen at the midpoint, and one seconds later:
1. The AoD happens: it is what stops the sacrifices and divides the week.
2. The sacrifices stop. The week is divided into two equal halves of 1260 days each.
3. The kingdoms of this world are take from Satan and given to Jesus Christ: the mystery of chapter 10 is solved. 
4. Seconds later, those in Judea begin to flee. 

Everything else you mentioned is found in a prophecy given by thee elders: not of events just happened, but of events that WILL happen in the near future. For example, the judging is found in chapter 20.

How can we prove "the midpoint?" First, by the five mentions of the countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week: chapters 11, 12, and 13. These are midpoint chapters. That does not mean everything in these chapters happens at the same time. The 42 month countdown in chapter 13 starts AFTER the 1260 days of fleeing starts. Next, by the fleeing: they flee because they SAW the abomination. 

Daniel tells us SOME EVENT will divide the week and also stop the daily sacrifices. So we KNOW that event will take place in either chapter 11, 12, or 13. It has to happen in one of those chapters. Then when we consider what Paul wrote, that the man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies and declare he is GOD - we know what event will stop the sacrifices. If we BACK UP (read backwards) from 12:6, the fleeing, and look for the abomination, we won't find it: John did not see in and did not write of it. But if we look for some kind of MARKER, we find the 7th  trumpet. Let me rephrase: I FOUND the 7th trumpet, because God told me it was "clearly marked." 

Begin to reign? Jesus was ALREADY "reigning" over the church, from when He rose from the dead and ascended. But could he "reign" over the world while Satan was the god of the world? No. But once the kingdoms of the world are transferred back to HIM, THEN he can begin to reign over EVERYTHING!

The inerrancy of truth is contained in scripture and not in midnight musings.   yet, much of the New Testament came through "midnight musings:", Paul receiving revelation knowledge of HIS GOSPEL. After all, that is how Jesus said He would build His church: "revealed knowledge." What is now "scripture" -  "the Pauline Epistles"  - the very "gospel" by which we will be judged, came about by  revelation. By the way, many who heard Paul would not believe. 

. How would one go about proving truth?  We have only one basis: the written word of God. If someone is listening to a wrong spirit, it will eventually come out: Take Alexander Dowie for example. It became very apparent to all around him that he really was NOT Elijah returned. He started listening to a wrong spirit. Another example: "Toad Bentleaf"  - if you know who I mean. 

Chapter 11 says, "The time has come to judge the dead..."  John wrote it, but it was a prophecy given by the elders. The judging comes in chapter 20.  Note this carefully: everything written in a specific chapter in Revelation will not, necessarily, take place in the time-frame of that chapter; some may be written as a parenthesis; or written as a prophecy. In either case, those events are outside the chronology of that chapter. Examples:

Rev. 11: a parenthesis from 11:4 to 11:13. Also a prophecy given by the elders. HOWEVER: Revelation 11:1, 2, and 3 happen JUST BEFORE the AoD, the 7th trumpet sounds AT the  AoD, and in 12:6 they flee because they have seen the AoD. 

Note also, the first 5 verses of chapter 12 are written as a parenthesis, so Outside John's midpoint chronology. 

My point is this; 11:1-11:3, then 11:15: these verses most certainly will happen AFTER the events of chapter 9, and BEFORE the events of chapter 13. John's chronology is very precise when we remove the parenthesis and the prophecies. However, in chapters 11-14, many people find it difficult to follow John's chronology. 

It's obvious some chapters do follow others but that's happenstance and not a reliable guide.  What you call a happenstance, I call chronology. 

I'm pointing out the events as described at the 7th trump cannot be the midpoint And I am pointing out that you are reading a prophecy given by the elders so not a part of John's narrative: the events which of course will happen outside the time-frame of chapter 11. But how about the 7th trumpet? Will it sound AFTER chapter 9 events and BEFORE chapter 13 events? You can count on it! It is a part of John's very strict chronology. 

The truth is, the five mentions of the 3.5 year countdown  PROVES chapter 11 to  be a midpoint chapter: TWO of these countdowns are in chapter 11! Two are in chapter 12. And the fleeing in 12:6 is only seconds after the midpoint. 

nor the does the reign of Christ begin at the 7th trump  When the kingdoms of the world are given to Him, He begins right then to "reign" over them. That does not mean He instantly begins making executive decisions. It does mean they are HIS to reign over. Satan was reigning over them before, but at that point in time, JESUS reigns. (He was reigning over the church long before this time.)

att 24 makes clear the A of D happens at the midpoint and then GT, and then only after GT is ended does wrath begin, well past the midpoint.   You were doing SO WELL, until you wrote and then only after GT is ended does wrath begin

You cannot prove that part. If we truly believe John, wrath begins with the DAY of His wrath. You know where that is. Oh, you are right in a way, SATAN's wrath begins then! But God's wrath began with the DAY of His wrath, at the 6th or 7th seal. 

Since wrath begins at the 7th trump the 7th trump is not the midpoint.  Your argument fails. His wrath begins with the DAY of His wrath: 6th or 7th seal: you can choose which one.