2 Corinthians 5:8 Absent from the Lord....

[Charlie744]

Speks, now your just showing off!

 I believe this will allow me to respond to anyone’s question on this subject... you do know you could have “messaged” me this response and I could have used it in this site!!!  

Anyway, that is one heck of a response...once again, WELL DONE! 

One more thing.... I am well aware I could not have prepared such a response for this specific question, but it also is a great example that ALL our questions can be answered by searching in the OT.

 I believe that the Messiah could not, and would not have arrived on earth before God had given man ALL the information and knowledge he would ever need to understand and come to know the ONE TRUE GOD.  

Although the NT gives us so much unbelievable knowledge of the Lord, we should easily have looked at Him walking down the road and said to Him, “hey, I know you”! 

I mention this as I have been studying Daniel. I was instructed to study Daniel BEFORE I attempted to try and learn Revelation, since everyone told me that there was so much in Revelation that comes directly from Daniel. Yet, when I ran into more than a few difficult verses, these same folks directed me to Revelation for its interpretation. 

However, after finding some very different interpretations of Daniel (those that were in complete contradiction to those accepted by ~90% of today’s students and scholars of Daniel), it became apparent to me that one could not or should not look to Revelation to interpret Daniel. I do understand they must agree with each other, but Daniel (OT), must be understood first and enlighten Revelation (NT). 

Consequently, God has given us a complete set of books BEFORE His first coming, and the Jews would / should / could have interpreted Daniel accurately since Revelation was yet to be written. But that is another issue that I am discussing with folks in a different topic in this forum.

Well, for me, this case is certainly closed, but it is still open for anyone still wanting to continue discussing it... ANY additional thoughts and responses will be appreciated!

Thank you again, Speks, wonderful work! Charlie 

 

 

[kenny2212]

Matthew 22:32

[Charlie744]

Kenny, thank you for this verse! 

Here is what I see at this time:

Speks has listed more than a few verses that, for me at least, has built or constructed a strong, straight series of fence posts. Each post represents the same answer to this question, they all point straight and in same direction, etc. And I believe there are more than a few verses in the Scriptures that can serve as additional fence posts in the same direction.

So, you have provided a verse from Matthew that might represent another post that is NOT in line with this fence. 

Kenny, it is very clear you are a big trouble maker! ?(hope you know I am joking!).

Because this is a strong verse in Matthew and can not be dismissed easily (certainly not by me and my lack of knowledge re: this verse), it should be addressed.

Therefore, either this verse is not speaking to this specific topic (similar to the Lazarus parable), or we have a problem- as we all know, Scripture can never contradict Scripture. 

At this time, we might be able to count a large number of fence posts that line up with this one seemingly going off in another direction. 

Can I suggest we might focus on the meaning of 22:32? Does this contradict the other posts or should it be in another line of fence posts?

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

Kenny, apparently there is much written on this topic as it seems to contradict all of those “fence posts” provided by folks in this forum.

I read more than a few interpretations and, in my opinion, I believe the primary message is directed to the Sadducees who were then contending there is NO life after death (contrary to the beliefs of the Pharisees). 

He specifically mentions the three patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He just might be telling us that only those that are in covenant with God will see internal life. As long as we are connected to the “vine”, we will be alive in Christ.

Adam was told “if you eat of this tree you shall surely die”. But of course Adam did not immediately die (physically), but they would die spiritually in God.

 I believe this verse does not contradict those along this fence, but adds a special meaning to the Sadducees and all to be sons of Abraham and have eternal life AFTER we are resurrected. 

Kenny, no soup for you - one year!

Charlie

[iamlamad]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:47 AM, Charlie744 said:

Great information!!

 I definitely agree with you that the Lazarus parable is not meant to tell us what happens at death... but I do believe it’s purpose is to tell us we can do no more towards our salvation afterwards.. and our fate is permanently sealed... no ones prayers can change things, etc.

The other quotes from Matthew and Revelation offer confusing or conflicting results...

There are also others that I find are quite difficult to refute— two of which is that “the dead no nothing”, and “they have no more ... under the sun” (something like that).

For me, these are clear and unambiguous... why would God tell us the dead know nothing IF, after death, we would experience either horrific pain or tremendous glory?

This reminds me of another reason I am convinced one should never use Revelation to interpret Daniel. I believe we must understand Daniel on its own and study how the words and verses should be interpreted in CONTEXT with their surroundings verses, not the verses in Revelation.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and consideration! Charlie 

I disagree: God is a self revealing God, and over time reveals more and more. Case in point: The NT gives us a much clearly picture of Our Father than the OT. Another case in point: The book of Revelation has 9 chapters on the 70th week of Daniel, where Daniel has a few verses. A wise bible college professor once told his students, "wisdom decrees that we form doctrine, use the most complete treatise on a subject first, then fill in missing pieces from lessor in size scriptures. And in the same way, use later revelations, rather than earlier ones." To follow his instruction then, it would be wise to FORM endtime doctrine from Revelation, and fill in missing pieces from Daniel. In the same way, it was be very wise to find out about "after death" from Jesus Christ, rather than from Solomon. The story of the rich man and Lazarus tells us that the spirits and souls of the dead can still THINK and SEE and remember. 

Today we have many testimonies of those who died, went to heaven, but then got called back to their bodies because someone prayed. They were very much awake and alert when they were in heaven. Their testimonies confirm what Paul said, that if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. 

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for your deep and always supported thoughts.

If you do not mind, can you please talk about the purpose of having the word “rather” in that verse?

 I would “rather” be present.... “

We can disagree regarding our interpretation of the Lazarus story... no problem!

There certainly are many folks who insist they have gone to heaven and returned.... this is well above my pay grade!!!

 Thank you again, Charlie 

[Speks]

On 10/5/2020 at 12:46 PM, iamlamad said:

Today we have many testimonies of those who died, went to heaven, but then got called back to their bodies because someone prayed. They were very much awake and alert when they were in heaven.

We need to be very cautious about the experiences some claim to have had. At the very least we need to align such claims with the balanced revelation of Scripture. We need to allow the authority of Scripture to overshadow alleged experiences, while using wisdom to weigh up an individual's character and spiritual condition.

Out-of-body experiences and "visions" may not be what they seem. We walk by faith.

[Charlie744]

Wow, I was just going to write the exact same thing... yes I was! Maybe...

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Speks said:

We need to be very cautious about the experiences some claim to have had. At the very least we need to align such claims with the balanced revelation of Scripture. We need to allow the authority of Scripture to overshadow alleged experiences, while using wisdom to weigh up an individual's character and spiritual condition.

Out-of-body experiences and "visions" may not be what they seem. We walk by faith.

We know of several people in the bible who went to Hades and then were called back to their body; Lazarus is a good example.  We know of at least one in the bible who went to heaven and was called back: Paul. I know a man that was born with three incurable diseases and was told by the beast doctors he would not live past 15 years old - and would be paralyzed for the last year or so of his life.  When he was 15 or close to it, he died 4 times in a row, but came back to his body each time. Three times he went down to hell, but a voice spoke and he came back to his body before he was pulled through the gates of hell: he SAW the gates. Two demons grabbed him to pull him through. The third time down, he did something wise: he repented! So the 4th time he died, he went UP. but this time he understood the voice. He got up off his deathbed by believing in Mark 11:23 and 24. He then preached the gospel and faith until he was 86 years old. I have heard him tell the story of him dying several times. 

When personal testimonies agree with scripture, why not believe them?
I agree, we must use the written word as a guide. 

[Speks]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

When personal testimonies agree with scripture, why not believe them?

In John 11 Jesus said that Lazarus had "fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." Paul was caught up to the "third heaven" — "Paradise", whether in the body or apart from the body we do not know, but God knows. The scriptural contexts for "sleep" (death) are worth thinking over collectively (see my earlier edited post).

These are poignant examples from Scripture, no doubt. But still, personally I think it's very wise to take time to weigh up claims some people make and be cautious. We hear a lot of stories. All things are possible with God, but it's also true that some people are emotionally predisposed to fanciful notions, and some may have ongoing mental issues. It's just a fact, so generally it pays not to be overtrusting, naive, or too easily convinced. 

That's the point I was making. That's why we need mature spiritual wisdom and understanding, even if circumstances or personal testimonies seem to agree with Scripture.