Are We Predestined?

[Walter and Deborah]

1 hour ago, JohnR7 said:

The main verse I take into account is: Revelation 22:17  "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." 

We are told God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". (2Peter3:9)

God wants everyone saved. He does not will for any to perish. So salvation is based on each individual making a choice for themselves if they want to be saved or not. Moses talks about how we are to choose life, health, blessing, prosperity and so many other choices that God gives us to make. 

Amen, I have found that after I have made the choice of to continue in His sayings so that I can know the truth of an issue, but the enemy always fight against that issue.

This is why I must always bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, I can clearly see to do whatever it takes to do His will, I believe that I'm  predestined for salvation.

Walter

[David1701]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

Predestination:

John 3:18 (AV)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:17 (AV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:16 (AV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Free will.

 

I find it interesting that, when you responded to my post, you snipped out the scriptural quote that I gave and only left my comments.  Is it because you dislike that part of the word of God, because that is what it looks like?

Here it is again, for those who love all of the word of God, including the parts that prove that who gets saved is God's choice, not man's.

1 Cor. 1:23-31 (WEB)

23 but we preach Christ crucified; a stumbling block to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brothers, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, and not many noble;
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and God chose the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are:
29 that no flesh should boast before God.
30 But of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.”

As for the quotes that you have given, not one of them is even about the condition of man's will, or about predestination, so I'm unsurprised that you have not attempted to demonstrate it.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

The main verse I take into account is: Revelation 22:17  "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." 

We are told God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". (2Peter3:9)

God wants everyone saved. He does not will for any to perish. So salvation is based on each individual making a choice for themselves if they want to be saved or not. Moses talks about how we are to choose life, health, blessing, prosperity and so many other choices that God gives us to make. 

Rev. 22:17 is indicative: all those who are willing may take the water of life freely; however, it does not even address the question as to who will be willing and why.  In other words, it gives absolutely no indication that fallen man's will is not a slave to sin, but, rather, able to believe in Jesus, contrary to fallen man's nature.

The Bible is clear that, before we are given a new heart/spirit, we are hostile towards God, hate the light and will not come to it and do not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel).

2 Pet. 3:9 is often torn out of its context and misused, as you have done, to try to make it look as if it refers to some kind of hand-wringing wishful thinking, by the Lord, towards all of mankind.  It refers to nothing of the sort, as the context makes crystal clear.

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (VW)

8 But, beloved, do not be unaware of this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Now everyone can see that this refers to the "beloved", not mankind in general (the beloved are, in fact, contrasted with the mockers mentioned earlier in the passage).  God is not willing that even one of his beloved elect should perish but that all of us should come to repentance; and this is exactly what happens.

This is confirmed by verse 15, in the same passage.

2 Pet. 3:15 (VW) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

THIS long-suffering is salvation (the long-suffering towards the beloved, in verse 9)!  Hallelujah!

[JohnD]

5 hours ago, David1701 said:

One is one, another one is one; therefore, one plus one equals one! 

To believe and be saved, or not to believe and be damned - one of those is your destiny.

Yup. Either / or. One or the other.  Not both.

IS.

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, Speks said:

This is an important point you have shared. Yes, salvation is sure, "but only as through fire" (see Scripture below). We are called to good works in Christ. True believers will all "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" (2nd Corinthians 5:10), so that each one may be repaid for what has been done in the body, whether good or bad. We will be held responsible for all we have done. 

Abiding in Christ we are secure. We are covered by His righteousness, but our conduct and works will be judged. This is a sobering reminder to walk in the Spirit so we will know wisdom, true revelation, purity, maturity in Christ, Christ-likeness and sound teaching. Future judgement in Christ will encourage us to properly handle Scripture, and we will need to watch out for those who misuse it. (This last point is very important in an online 'Christian' forum such as this.)

"If anyone builds on the foundation [Jesus Christ] with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one's work will become obvious. For the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will experience loss, but he himself will be saved — but only as through fire" (1st Corinthians 3:12-15, CSB)

Hi Speks,

The `judgment seat of Christ` is a rewards time. Believers will get rewarded by what they have done under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. All else will be burnt up. Only what is of the Lord remains.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Malachi tells us the books were written before Him. That would suggest to me that He is not the one doing the writing. We are told in Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Interesting that God is able NOT to remember something. 

Malachi 3:16   " So a scroll of remembrance was written before Him regarding those who feared the LORD and honored His name".

Hi John,

If you look at the context you will see that it refers to the people of Israel during the tribulation - the Day of the Lord.

[JohnR7]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

If you look at the context you will see that it refers to the people of Israel during the tribulation - the Day of the Lord.

The question has to do with who is doing the writing. The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit but man is the one that does the actual writing. 

[JohnR7]

12 hours ago, David1701 said:

Now everyone can see that this refers to the "beloved", not mankind in general

All means all. This is esp true in the Hebrew but also is true in the Greek. This is a military language. When you command an army your instructions have to be exact. All means all and it does not mean some of the people. This was a language used to conquer the world. Very exact and very precise. 

We know that not all are going to be saved but Jesus died for all, if they receive His sacrifice is up to them. God loves us all. All have the ability to be saved but they have the freedom to choose if they want to be saved.  This is what makes us human. Animals do not have the ability to choose the way humans do. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by JohnR7

[David1701]

14 hours ago, JohnD said:

Yup. Either / or. One or the other.  Not both.

IS.

Alright, there is no point in pursuing this any further.  I understood what you meant; it was just the way you phrased it that was wrong.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

All means all. This is esp true in the Hebrew but also is true in the Greek. This is a military language. When you command an army your instructions have to be exact. All means all and it does not mean some of the people. This was a language used to conquer the world. Very exact and very precise. 

 

The language in biblical times was far LESS precise, and more generalised, than nowadays.  In order for "all" or "none" to be taken to mean "every single person" or "not one person", respectively, it would have to be stated explicitly, or no-one would have understood it that way.  This is why Paul made sure that his readership would understand Romans 3 properly and not in the standard way of the time.

Rom. 3:9-12 (VW)

9 What then? Do we surpass them? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.

The "...no, not one" phrases would be useless tautologies, if the people would naturally have taken "none" to mean literally "not one human being".  Of course, they would not have taken it so; but, as nowadays, they would have generalised it to mean "hardly any", except that the tendency to do this was MORE pronounced in biblical times than now.

The precision of language nowadays has increased, largely due to such precision being necessary in scientific disciplines and many people being taught such disciplines, even if many are only taught them at school.

Quote

We know that not all are going to be saved but Jesus died for all, if they receive His sacrifice is up to them. God loves us all. All have the ability to be saved but they have the freedom to choose if they want to be saved.  This is what makes us human. Animals do not have the ability to choose the way humans do.

The Bible never says that salvation by grace through faith is a result of sinful man's choice - NEVER.  Not only that but the Lord explicitly states that he died for his sheep and his people, which would be misleading and pointless to say, if he died for every person.

John 10:14-16 (VW)

14 I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must lead, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one Shepherd.

The Lord Jesus laid down his life for the sheep (from Jews and Gentiles), not for every person.

Eph. 5:25 (WEB) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it;

Here is the same truth, using a different analogy.  Christ loved the Assembly and gave himself up FOR IT (i.e. not for every person on earth).

This is why the Lord Jesus came to earth: the save HIS PEOPLE (not every person) from their sins.  This is why he came and this is what he accomplished, when he shed his blood and died on the cross.  He saved his people (from Jews and Gentiles).  It was never God's intention to save every person on earth; if it had been, then God would have been a failure, which is why your teaching is blasphemous (although I'm sure that you did not intend it to be).