What is a "soul?"

[Uber Genius]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, really? How is that possible since Avraham's air-breathing creature LIES SILENT IN A CAVE?! And, how does one separate an "air-breathing creature" from the body? Isn't it the body that breathes air? Since Adam WAS the creature that breathed air, so we ALL are creatures (created beings) that breathe air! Since we ALL are creatures that breathe air, then Avraham also was a creature that breathed air! We ARE our bodies!

Circular reasoning: 

premise one: the Bible is true and reliable as a testimony about the nature of souls (hidden premise)

premise two: from examining word meaning of those scriptures are often associated with the word breath in English.

Premise three:God's creation of soulish beings are necessarily air-breathing. 

Argument: from 1-3 therefore when men die their soul dies as they no longer have breath.

So your question:

"How is it possible since Abraham's [Soul] air-breathing creature LIES SILENT IN A CAVE?"

Either the author of that passage is giving us a false narrative (in this case Jesus) which violates your hidden premise 1

or

your third premise is false and while men can be air it is not a necessary one.

so the whole point of logic and analytical minds is to properly use rules. 

Your answer shows what happens when you plug your definition of soul as air-breathing creature into scripture.

Scripture becomes incoherent.

like square circles of married bachelors.

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"God is the God of these persons, they must be now alive in their souls, for God is not the God of the dead; and that their bodies must rise again, or he will not be the God of their whole persons"

Again, how can a person be a "soul" if he or she no longer "breathes air?"

Again you have asked the right question.

The answer is that on the view that soulish means air-breathing creature we have dead men according to Biblical authors, being called alive according to Jesus!

this seems to be the correlate to schroedinger cat in quantum mechanics. 

Is man's soul dead or alive after his body dies?

BOTH. On air breathing creature he is dead but on Matt, Mark, Luke, MOses, Jesus ...he is alive.

since this inconguence destroys meaning we can discard it as self-contradictory or false.

the others quotes provide more reinforcement that your view is logically inconsistent with itself (Premise 1 and 3).

But this doesn't mean that your claim that souls are necessarily tied to physical bodies is false.

Thia only means you will have to develop a different method of arguing for the inference than the one above that is self-refutational.

[Uber Genius]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Not a lot of time tonight, but let's just start here. I believe that souls are air-breathing bodies. Other than that, no, I do not see them as being distinct.

No, "I take your meaning to be that you Do indeed believe souls to be distinct from bodies."

Remember, I used your method of gaining understanding of Biblical passages, and applied it to your claims. 

I take what you said above (now that I revamped it by learning its true meaning), that you "Do believe in souls being distinct from the body!" 

You see after serious study, I have found the true meaning of your major premises is that you reverse the predicates. That so the sentence all men are mortal actually revamped and understanding the true meanings means.

All men are mortal becomes

All men are NOT mortal

so too 

All souls are air-breathing once we REVAMP AND LEARN ITS TRUE MEANING becomes

All souls are NOT air-breathing

I determined that by "freeing myself of the meaningless religious words and phrases," in your post above and other posts. 

So since you clearly agree that your initial post was in error, what are we discussing?

-----------------------

So what have I been doing in my last two posts where I knowingly misrepresent your view?

I'm trying to help you understand that anyone can:

redefine words to their hearts content,

ignore grammar

misrepresent tense,

misrepresent sentence structure

misrepresent context

delete textual clues

ignore rules of perspicuity 

ignore the enormous use of figurative language that appears in every book in the Bible

Ignore the experts

but how do you make your case?

creating claims that no author or audience ever conceived of is called eisegesis and leads us necessarily to false conclusions.

 

i recommend a book by Fee/Stuart 

https://books.google.com/books/about/How_to_Read_the_Bible_for_All_Its_Worth.html?id=sGBtAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

Here is a book that helped me back in 1984 while in undergraduate school. 

https://books.google.com/books/about/Exegetical_Fallacies.html?id=zb8UvxzusQ8C&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

 

[theThinker]

Churchianity has distorted EVERYTING the Bible says.

They side with Satan who told Eve she WOULDN'T die, after God said they WOULD, if they rebelled.

They side with the false religions of the world who say we never die- but live on, and are immediately judged, going to various destinations.

WORST of all, by their dogma they teach JESUS never died, thus was never resurrected! Then pretend to celebrate it with a Rabbit laying colored eggs! 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Circular reasoning: 

Premise one: the Bible is true and reliable as a testimony about the nature of souls (hidden premise)

Premise two: from examining word meaning of those scriptures are often associated with the word breath in English.

Premise three: God's creation of soulish beings are necessarily air-breathing. 

Argument: from 1-3 therefore when men die their soul dies as they no longer have breath.

So your question:

"How is it possible since Abraham's [Soul] air-breathing creature LIES SILENT IN A CAVE?"

Either the author of that passage is giving us a false narrative (in this case Jesus) which violates your hidden premise 1

or

your third premise is false and while men can be air it is not a necessary one.

so the whole point of logic and analytical minds is to properly use rules. 

Your answer shows what happens when you plug your definition of soul as air-breathing creature into scripture.

Scripture becomes incoherent.

like square circles of married bachelors.

Shalom, Uber Genius.

You left out a CRITICAL conclusion: "OR, we are not yet understanding Yeshua`s narrative." It's not Yeshua` who is wrong (obviously); it's HUMAN BEINGS who read what Yeshua` said and get it wrong! That's the PRIMARY WAY that "Scripture becomes incoherent."

3 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Again you have asked the right question.

The answer is that on the view that soulish means air-breathing creature we have dead men according to Biblical authors, being called alive according to Jesus!

this seems to be the correlate to schroedinger cat in quantum mechanics. 

Is man's soul dead or alive after his body dies?

Well, since it is the MAN - the BODY -who dies, and it is the MAN - the BODY - who no longer breathes, then it is the MAN - the BODY - who is no longer a "soul," since the MAN - the BODY - is no longer an "air-breathing creature."

The living MAN - the living, air-breathing created being - dies when he is no longer breathing. (DUH!) Therefore, the living SOUL (Hebrew: nefesh) DIES! Why is this such a challenge for you?

3 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

BOTH. On air breathing creature he is dead but on Matt, Mark, Luke, MOses, Jesus ...he is alive.

since this inconguence destroys meaning we can discard it as self-contradictory or false.

the others quotes provide more reinforcement that your view is logically inconsistent with itself (Premise 1 and 3).

But this doesn't mean that your claim that souls are necessarily tied to physical bodies is false.

Thia only means you will have to develop a different method of arguing for the inference than the one above that is self-refutational.

Again, you're putting too much work into this. JUST LISTEN TO YESHUA` IN CONTEXT!

Furthermore, since all three accounts are not only accurate, they are interconnected by the disciples of Yeshua`. And, to add to the truth found therein, all three have been authorized by the Ruwach haQodesh YHWH Elohiym to be canonical as part of the Holy Scriptures! So, let's look at a HARMONIZED read of these three accounts:

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!" 

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mark 12:18-27 (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 

19 "Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."

24 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err!"

Luke 20:27-40 (KJV)

27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying,

"Master, Moses wrote unto us, 'If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.' 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife."

34 And Jesus answering said unto them,

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him!" 

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said,

"Master, thou hast well said!"

40 And after that they durst not (didn't dare) ask him any question at all.

Now, to really harmonize these three passages, one should ALWAYS go back to the Greek to do it right. Harmonize in the Greek FIRST, and THEN translate the result into English (or whatever language you choose). Mattityahuw haLeviy (Matthew the Levite) had an eyewitness account that he gave. Yochanan "Marcus" (John Mark), a Greek-born Jew, lived in Yerushalayim and knew Shim`own Kefa ("Simon Peter") personally and thus had Peter's account of what Yeshua` said and did. (Acts 12:5-17;

This exercise would be a lot of fun to do, but not everyone has the patience to go this route; however, if you would just look at Lukas' account, who said,

Luke 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus (Lover of God), 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

So, Lukas, an intelligent physician, made a composite account from several eyewitnesses to deliver unto us an accurate account. Look again at what he said that Yeshua` said to these Tsduqiym ("Righteous Ones"):

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (Greek: aioonos = age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him!"

Now, Mattityahuw's account:

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

And, Yochanan Marcus' (Kefa's) account:

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err!"

Let's just do the Greek of these verses:

To be continued...

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Uber Genius.

Continuing on...

Here's the Greek of these passages using a simple transliteration method I've adopted to minimize font requirements.

alpha = a
beta = b
gamma = g
delta = d
epsilon = e
zeta = z
eta = ee
theta = th
iota = i
kappa = k
lambda = l
mu = m
nu = n
xi = x
omicron = o
pi = p
rho = r
sigma = s
tau = t
upsilon = u
phi = f
chi = ch
psi = ps
omega = oo
rough breathing = h
smooth breathing = nothing added
The accents - acute, grave, and circumflex - are ignored.

(Please pardon any auto-corrections that might have slipped by me. I've tried to catch them and tell this editor to ignore the spellings, but it's hard to catch them all.)

Luke 20

34 Kai eipen autos ho Ieesous, "Hoi huioi tou aioonos toutou gamousin kai gamiskontai, 
35 hoi de kataxioothentes tou aioonos ekeinou tuchein kai tees anastaseoos tees ek nekton oute gamousin oude gamizontai;
36 oude gar apothansin eti dunatai, isaggeloi gar eisin, kai huioi eisen Thou tees anastaseoos huioi ontes.
37 Hoti de egeirontai hoi nekroi, Kai Moousees  emeenusen epi tees Baton, hoos legei Kurion 'Ton Theon Abra-am kai Theon Isa-ak kai Theon Iakoob.'
38 Theos de ouk estin nekroon alla zoontoon; pantes gar autoo zoosin."

34 Kai = 34 And
eipen = said
autos = to-them
ho = the
Ieesous, = Yeshua`/Jesus
"Hoi = "The
huioi = sons/children
tou = of-the
aioonos = age
toutou = this-one
gamousin = are-married
kai = and
gamiskontai, = are-given-in marriage, 
35 hoi = 35 the
de = but
kataxioothentes = ones-counted-worthy
tou = of-the
aioonos = age
ekeinou = that-which-[is]
tuchein = to-happen
kai = and
tees = the
anastaseoos = resurrection
tees = the-one 
ek = out-from
nekroon = [the]-dead-ones
oute = neither
gamousin = marry
oute = nor
gamizontai; = are-given-in-marriage
36 oude = 36 neither
gar = for
apothansin = to-die
eti = are-they
dunatai, = able,
isaggeloi = isos + aggeloi = like-messengers
gar = for
eisin, = they-are,
kai = and
huioi = sons/children
eisen = they-are
Theou = of-God
tees = of-the
anastaseoos = resurrection
huioi = sons/children
ontes. = existing/being.
37 Hoti = 37 That
de = but
egeirontai = are-raised
hoi = the
nekroi, = dead-ones,
Kai = And/Also
Moousees = Mosheh/Moses
emeenusen = showed
epi = at
tees = the
Baton, = (burning) Bush,
hoos = when
legei = he-said
Kurion = of-[the]-Lord
'Ton = 'The
Theon = God
Abra-am = of-Abraham
kai = and
Theon = [the]-God
Isa-ak = of-Yitschaq/Isaac
kai = and
Theon = [the]-God
Iakoob.' = of-Ya`aqoV/Jacob.'
38 Theos = 38 God
de = but
ouk = not
estin = he-is
nekroon = of-dead-ones
alla = but
zoontoon; = of-living-ones;
pantes = all
gar = for
autoo = to/for-Him
zoosin." = live."

Mark 12

24 Efee autois ho Ieesous, "Ou dia touto planasthe mee eidontes tas grafas meede teen dunamin tou Theou?
25 Hotan gar ek nekton anastoosin, oute gamousin oute ganizontai, all' eisen hoos aggeloi en tops ouranois.
26 Peri de toon nekroon hoi egeirontai, ook anegnoote en tee biblio Moouseoos epi tou Batou poos eipen autoo ho Theos legoon, 'Egoo ho Theos Abra-am kai <ho> Theos Isa-ak kai <ho> Theos Iakoob?
27 Ouk estin Theos nekroon alla zoontoon! Polu planasthe!"

24 Efee = 24 Was-saying
autois = to-them
ho = the
Ieesous, = Yeshua`/Jesus
"Ou = "Not
dia = through/because-of
touto =this
planasthe = do-you-err
mee = not
eidontes = perceiving
tas = the
grafas = writings
meede = nor
teen = the
dunamin = power/ability
tou = of-the
Theou? = God?
25 Hotan = 25 When
gar = for
ek = out-from
nekroon = [the]-dead-ones
anastoosin, = they-rise,
oute = nor
gamousin = do-they-marry
oute = nor
gamizontai, = are-they-given-in-marriage
all' = alla = but
eisen = they-are
hoos = like
aggeloi = messengers
en = in
tois = the
ouranois. = skies.
26 Peri = 26 Around/Concerning
de = but
toon = the
nekroon = dead-ones
hoti = that
egeirontai, = they-are-raised. 
ouk = not
anegnoote = have-you-read
en = in
tee = the
biblio = book
Moouseoos = of-Mosheh/Moses
epi = at
tou = the
Batou = (burning)-Bush
poos = how
eipen = spoke
autoo = to-him
ho = the
Theos = God
legoon, = saying,
'Egoo = 'I-[am]
ho = the
Theos = God
Abra-am = of-Avraham/Abraham
kai = and
<ho> = <the>
Theos = God
Isa-ak = of-Yitschaq/Isaac
kai = and
<ho> = <the>
Theos = God
Iakoob? = of-Ya`aqoV/Jacob?
27 Ouk = 27 Not
estin = He-is
Theos = God
nekroon = of-dead-ones
alla = but
zoontoon! = of-living-ones!
Polu = Many-times
planasthe!" = you-err!"

Matthew 22

29 Apokritheis de ho Ieesous eipen autois, "Planasthe mee eidotes tas grafas meede teen dunamin tou Theou.
30 En gar tee anastasei oute gamousin oute gamizontai, all' hoos aggeloi en too ouranoo eisin.
31 Peri de tees anastaseoos toon nekroon ouk anegnoote to hreethen humin hupo tou Theou legontos 'Egoo eimi ho Theos Abra-am kai ho Theos Isa-ak kai ho Theos Iakoob'? ouk estin ho Theos nekroon alla zoontoon!"

29 Apokritheis = 29 Concluding-for-Himself
de = but
ho = the
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
eipen = said
autois, = to-them,
"Planasthe = "You-do-err
mee = not
eidotes = perceiving
tas = the
grafas = writings/scriptures
meede = nor
teen = the
dunamin = power/ability
tou = of-the
Theou. = God.
30 En = 30 In
gar = for
tee = the
anastasei = resurrection
oute = nor
gamousin = do-they-marry
oute = nor
gamizontai, = are-they-given-in-marriage
all' = alla = but
hoos = like
aggeloi = messengers
en = in
too = the
ouranoo = sky
eisin. = they-are.
31 Peri = 31 Around/concerning
de = but
tees = the
anastaseoos = resurrection
toon of-the
nekroon = dead-ones
ouk = not
anegnoote = have-you-read
to = that-which 
hreethen = has-been-spoken
humin = to-him
hupo = under
tou = of-the
Theou = God
legontos = saying,
'Egoo = 'I
eimi = am
ho = the
Theos = God
Abra-am = of-Avraham/Abraham
kai = and
ho = the
Theos = God
Isa-ak = of-Yitschaq/Isaac
kai = and
ho = the
Theos = God
Iakoob'? = of-Ya`aqoV/Jacob'?
ouk = not
estin = He-is
ho = the
Theos = God
nekroon = of-dead-ones
alla = but
zoontoon!" = of-living-ones!"

Now, let's put them together closer and see how they might fit together. Since most don't know or think in Greek, I'm using the word-for-word translations together:

34 And (the) Yeshua` said to them, "The children of this age are married and are given in marriage, 35 but the ones counted worthy of the age that which is to happen and the resurrection, the one out from the dead ones, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for nor are they able to die, for they are like messengers and they are children of God, being children of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead ones are raised, Moses also showed at the [burning] Bush when he said of the Lord, 'The God of Avraham and the God of Yitschaq and the God of Ya`aqoV.' 38 But He is not God of dead ones but of living ones; for all live for Him."

24 (The) Yeshua` was saying to them, "Because of this, do you not err, not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of (the) God? 25 For when they rise out from the dead ones, nor do they marry nor are they given in marriage, but they are like messengers in the skies. 26 But, concerning the dead ones that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses at the (burning) Bush how (the) God spoke to him saying, 'I [am] the God of Abraham and [the] God of Isaac and [the] God of Jacob'? 27 He is not a God of dead ones but of living ones! Many times you err!"

29 But concluding for Himself, (the) Yeshua` said to them, "You do err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of (the) God! 30 For in the resurrection nor do they marry nor are they given in marriage, but they are like messengers in the sky. 31 But, concerning the resurrection of the dead ones, have you not read that which has been spoken to him under of the God saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.'? He is not the God of dead ones but of living ones!"

29 But concluding for Himself, (the) Yeshua` said to them,
24 (The) Yeshua` was saying to them,
34 And (the) Yeshua` said to them,

But, concluding for Himself, Yeshua` said to them and was saying to them,

"You do err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of (the) God!
"Because of this, do you not err, not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of (the) God?

Because of this (sheilah; puzzle) don't you err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of God? You DO err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of God!

The children of this age are married and are given in marriage,

35 but the ones counted worthy of the age that which is to happen and the resurrection, the one out from the dead ones,
25 For when they rise out from the dead ones,
30 For in the resurrection,

but the ones counted worthy of the age, that age which is to happen, and the resurrection, the one out from the dead ones - for in the resurrection, when they rise out from the dead ones - 

they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
nor do they marry nor are they given in marriage,
nor do they marry nor are they given in marriage,

they neither marry nor are given in marriage,

36 for nor are they able to die,

for they are like messengers and they are children of God, being children of the resurrection.
but they are like messengers in the skies.
but they are like messengers in the sky.

but they are like messengers in the skies and they are children of God, being children of the resurrection.

37 But that the dead ones are raised,
26 But, concerning the dead ones that they are raised,
31 But, concerning the resurrection of the dead ones,

But, concerning the resurrection of the dead ones, that the dead ones are raised,

Moses also showed at the [burning] Bush when he said of the Lord,
have you not read in the book of Moses at the (burning) Bush how (the) God spoke to him saying,
have you not read that which has been spoken to him under of the God saying,

have you not read in the book of Mosheh at the burning Bush how Mosheh also showed how God spoke to him saying that which has been spoken to him under that of God saying,

'The God of Avraham and the God of Yitschaq and the God of Ya`aqoV.'
'I [am] the God of Avraham and [the] God of Yitschaq and [the] God of Ya`aqoV'?
32 'I am the God of Avraham and the God of Yitschaq and the God of Ya`aqoV'?

'I am the God of Avraham and the God of Yitschaq and the God of Ya`aqoV'?

38 But He is not God of dead ones but of living ones; for all live for Him."
27 He is not a God of dead ones but of living ones! Many times you err!"
He is not the God of dead ones but of living ones!"

But, He is not a God of dead ones but of living ones; for all live for Him. Many times you err!"

NOW, we put them together as though translating back into English:

 

But, concluding for Himself, Yeshua` said to them and was saying to them,

"Because of this (sheilah; puzzle) don't you err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of God? You DO err not perceiving the Scriptures nor the power of God! The children of this age are married and are given in marriage, but the ones counted worthy of the age, that age which is to happen, and the resurrection, the one out from the dead ones - for in the resurrection, when they rise out from the dead ones - they neither marry nor are given in marriage, for nor are they able to die, but they are like messengers in the skies and they are children of God, being children of the resurrection.

But, concerning the resurrection of the dead ones, that the dead ones are raised, have you not read in the book of Mosheh at the burning Bush how Mosheh also showed how God spoke to him saying that which has been spoken to him under that of God saying, 'I am the God of Avraham and the God of Yitschaq and the God of Ya`aqoV'? But, He is not a God of dead ones but of living ones; for all live for Him. Many times you err!"

 

That's how I harmonize Scriptures (although I usually don't resort to word-for-word translations until AFTER I've put the Greek together in one unit). All three are true and correct, and all three are God's Word; therefore, the composite must include ALL elements of the three viewpoints.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Retrobyter
to fix paragraph spacing

[DeighAnn]

Does the bible state somewhere that the celestial body is not air breathing?

[DeighAnn]

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
 

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

[Uber Genius]

On 1/22/2021 at 11:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

You left out a CRITICAL conclusion: "OR, we are not yet understanding Yeshua`s narrative." It's not Yeshua` who is wrong (obviously); it's HUMAN BEINGS who read what Yeshua` said and get it wrong! That's the PRIMARY WAY that "Scripture becomes incoherent."

Not necessary. This was my point about coherence.

if we appeal to mystery as you have done above, "we do not yet understand," but not only is that false, the Sadducees understood, the crowd understood, the Biblical author's used it coherently to illustrate the same point about the resurrection being true. And scholars never appeal to mystery here.

But asume those things are false. 

When we plug in your inference to other passages they become clearly false.

So analytically speaking we are using the law of identity here.

if a =b and b=c then a= c by substitution.

i already ran the substitution passages like the witch at Endor. And other passages in NT referring to souls in Abraham's Bossom. 

All soulish beings = airbreathing

Samuel is a soulish being (1 Samuel 28:11ff)

and 

Samuel is NOT airbreathing,

Since the hidden premise of your argument is the reliability of scripture and the Bible has shown to say a = b and a Not = b we need not go any further.

Premise 1 The Bible is a consistent witness to the truths contained within is false!

 

NO need for appeals to mystery or appeals that scholars, disciples, Jesus' audience all got it wrong. We don't get past the first premise because the Bible has many examples of of non-air breathing souls. So on your position we would claim that the Bible claims that all souls are air breathers at the same time giving many examples of Non-air-breathing souls!

no appeals to mystery, the Bible contradicts itself!

I Got it.

But you can no longer appeal to pages of discussion about texts which of course privileges a "literal" interpretation not a figurative one. And further ignores every scholarly reference about the topic.

in fact your disproving your hidden premise undermines ALL appeals to the Bible as a source of knowledge. 

Oops.

Your analytical approach didn't support your inference but gives a defeater for the coherence of scripture! Making it useless as a source of knowledge. Any and all Biblical knowledge is undermined.

[Uber Genius]

On 1/22/2021 at 1:38 PM, theThinker said:

Churchianity has distorted EVERYTING the Bible says.

?Que?

Bumpersticker theology has destroying EVERYTHING the Bible says. 

[Uber Genius]

On 1/22/2021 at 11:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

Well, since it is the MAN - the BODY -who dies, and it is the MAN - the BODY - who no longer breathes, then it is the MAN - the BODY - who is no longer a "soul," since the MAN - the BODY - is no longer an "air-breathing creature."

False analogy.

Your method is one that destroys textual meaning. 

I was once called an idiot on my school playground.

I responded, 

"An idiot is a drip, a drip is a drop, a drop is rain, rain is nature, nature is beautiful, thank you for the compliment."

This is how we take words and play games with them to misrepresent their meaning. The only difference between us is that I intended to misrepresent the actual meaning and you clearly did not.

Did you happen to Click on with reference I attached about understanding the Bible and reading it to draw out its meaning rather than read into it whatever we wanted?