What is a "soul?"

[DeighAnn]

Father,
I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

[Uber Genius]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Does this come in a 'kid or an unlearned version'?  If so, could I have it.

[Uber Genius]

INDUCTIVE/DEDUCTIVE PROCESS IN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY

When looking across scripture to see how 40+ authors treat across a wide array of cultures and 1500 year timespan, we must first gather data at the SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH LEVEL.

2 - Describe attributes associated with the topic e.g. Sin

sin is a function of moral agency

moral agency requires free will

we would take all scripture about sin and list various attributes. 

3- describe theory of sin that explains attributes in step 2

4 - test theory or hypothesis developed in step 3

All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Put that against moral agency and free will and determine babies don't sin, and those without mental understanding of moral truths (mental challenged) don't sin. 

Conclusion of test either sin is imputed or sin nature is different than the act of sin because we are born with sin nature but it wasn't a due to a violation of knowledge of a moral command nor did we have the free will required for moral agency.

5 - So we might separated out our theology of sin with one explanation of moral sin and a different one of "sin nature."

GO BACK TO STEP 1 and draw out passages that make the distinction between sin nature and moral sin and start the process over again.

so v

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Frits said:

Scripture?

Bro, who do you mean by Israel?

Psa 47:7 KJV

For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

Shalom, Frits.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

THIS is over whom Yeshua` shall reign! If we have been adopted into the Olive Tree, then we too are part of that Kingdom, but it is primarily the actual children of Israel who were and are His FAMILY!

While HIS FATHER may be King of all the earth, Yeshua` the SON of God shall BECOME King over all the earth. He starts as the King of the Jews; that is, the King of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah"), when He returns and rescues them from genocide. He shall be accepted as the King of all Israel as the descendants of Israel return to the Land and they accept Him as their King. And, as He becomes a King for other countries, as well, He shall become the "King of kings," a term that meant "Emperor," as a King over other kings over other countries. Nebuchadnezzar was such a king (Ezekiel 26:7), and Artaxerxes was also such a king (Ezra 7:12). David was not such a king, but his son Shlomoh ("Solomon") was becoming such a king as his reputation and his influence over other countries grew. The Messiah SHALL be such a king (Revelation 19:16), reigning for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6), always subduing His enemies until at last He shall be ruler over the entire world (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)! During that time, His influence over other countries will become great. Many countries will come to Him for His help and advice, especially financial advice. That's what the parables of Matthew 13 teach. We also find this in Jeremiah 31:

Jeremiah 31:1-40 (KJV)

 1 "At the same time," saith the LORD, "will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people."

2 Thus saith the LORD, "The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest."

3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, "Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. 5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria (the West Bank): the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. 6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, 'Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God!'"

7 For thus saith the LORD; "Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, 'O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel!' 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. 11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. 13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness," saith the LORD.

15 Thus saith the LORD; "A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

16 Thus saith the LORD; "Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded," saith the LORD; "and they shall come again from the land of the enemy."

17 "And there is hope in thine end," saith the LORD, "that thy children shall come again to their own border. 18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; 'Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.' 20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD.

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; "As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; 'The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.'

24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks. 25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul. 26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

27 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant," saith the LORD.

29 In those days they shall say no more, "The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge." 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 "If those ordinances depart from before me," saith the LORD," then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

37 Thus saith the LORD; "If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," saith the LORD.

38 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that the city (Jerusalem) shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever."

Isaiah 2:2-5 (KJV)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths": for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Micah 4:1-4 (KJV)

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2And many nations shall come, and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths": for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

INDUCTIVE/DEDUCTIVE PROCESS IN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY

When looking across scripture to see how 40+ authors treat across a wide array of cultures and 1500 year timespan, we must first gather data at the SENTENCE OR PARAGRAPH LEVEL.

2 - Describe attributes associated with the topic e.g. Sin

sin is a function of moral agency

moral agency requires free will

we would take all scripture about sin and list various attributes. 

3- describe theory of sin that explains attributes in step 2

4 - test theory or hypothesis developed in step 3

All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Put that against moral agency and free will and determine babies don't sin, and those without mental understanding of moral truths (mental challenged) don't sin. 

Conclusion of test either sin is imputed or sin nature is different than the act of sin because we are born with sin nature but it wasn't a due to a violation of knowledge of a moral command nor did we have the free will required for moral agency.

5 - So we might separated out our theology of sin with one explanation of moral sin and a different one of "sin nature."

GO BACK TO STEP 1 and draw out passages that make the distinction between sin nature and moral sin and start the process over again.

so v

Shalom, Uber Genius.

OR, babies and mentally challenged individuals DO sin. They just don't understand, yet, that they are sinning! Perhaps, they never shall. 

My father, an independent Baptist minister, used to demonstrate it with observations of young babies: A baby can be crying so loudly and sharply that the mother is SURE that the child is in some sort of pain. She picks up her baby, and the baby stops crying. That's all the baby wanted the whole time! The baby INSTINCTIVELY knew how to LIE to get what he wanted! You can call that "the sin nature," if you want, but the bottom line is that we DO SIN VERY EARLY IN LIFE! And, ANY sin is an affront to God's HOLINESS! Which is why "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God!"

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't matter as the important thing is the simplicity.  It isn't the letter but the spirit of the Word.  Remember it is written to little children, not wise men
 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

While it is true that we are like more-than-insignificant "little children" to an ULTIMATE GENIUS (sorry Uber), like our loving Father, YHWH God, that doesn't detract from the sheer GENIUS of God's plan to justify humanity! The "spirit of the word" refers to the ATTITUDE of the writers when they wrote God's Word or the attitude of GOD in the capture of His Word on the medium.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

No help.  There are men in heaven.  There are men on earth.  That isn't future.  That is past.  We see it different. 

OH, REALLY? Stop right there for a moment. WHERE is it said that "there are men in heaven?" I challenge that OPINION. It's NOT in Scripture that I know of, and even if it were, it depends on the original word.

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I can't think of a reason for God to want us without a body.  I can't see a reason to shake the heavens if there is no one there.  I can't think of who the violent are that take it by force.  Maybe you think space is limited.

Oh, wow! You have some INTERESTING and DEPRESSING conclusions going on!

First, we are NEVER "without a body," because WE don't exist apart from the body! So, God doesn't deal with "us without a body."

Second, the word for "heavens" is either the Hebrew "shaamaayim" or the Aramaic "shaamaayin" in the TANAKH (the "Old Testament") meaning "skies," or it is the Greek "ouranoi" in the B'rit haChadashah (the "New Testament") also meaning "skies."

So, when the Scriptures say "shake the heavens" in Isaiah 13:13, the word is "shaamaayim," and the Hebrew word for "shake" is "'argiyz," the first-person, singular, common form translated "I will shake," coming from the root word "raagaz," meaning "to be agitated, quiver, quake, be excited, perturbed." When talking about the earth or the ground, it means to "quake," as in an "earthquake." When talking about the weather, it means "thundered" or "rumbled." When talking about persons, it means "to agitate" or "to provoke" or "to enrage." When talking about persons or animals, it may mean "to quiver" or "to tremble," either in fear or from sickness.

And, when the Scriptures say "shake the heavens" in Haggai 2:6, 21, the word is also "shaamaayim," and the Hebrew word for "shake" is "mar`iysh," the first-person, singular, common form translated " will shake," coming from the root word "raa`ash," meaning "to quake," or "to shake." When talking about the earth, it can mean "to undulate" or "to ripple" as some earthquakes cause. This word is more causal than the first, which is more reflexive, as "being caused."

Since we are reading about the "skies," it MAY have to do with the weather, but it can also mean the actual shaking of the atmosphere, where the molecules of the atmosphere vibrate. That's accomplished by a LOUD SOUND or NOISE, such as in sonic booms from passing jets or from clapping thunder! (Lightning moves so fast and hotly through the atmosphere, that it leaves a vacuum behind it. When the air molecules clap back together behind the lightning, they create the sonic boom that we call "thunder." Jets do the same thing when they're traveling "supersonically" or faster than sound travels.)

It does NOT mean to "rattle the gates" to get Someone's attention, as in "effectual, fervent prayer!" (Which is yet ANOTHER misuse of Scripture!)

What's MORE important, though, is that God is ALWAYS there, in the skies, upon the earth, within the earth, throughout His universe, and beyond (if there is a "beyond").

Remember this: God is NOT MAD AT US ANYMORE!!! And, we are "accepted in the Beloved!" HE LOVES US, and He's not going to do anything that will hurt His children!

 

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.  We were all there before. 

Where do you suppose  the 'fallen angels' get their bodies from?  Or the angels we entertain unawares?  Or the angels that went to Sodom and Gomorrah?  How can we be equal to the angels without a body?  It ISN'T about the verses, It's about THE BIG PICTURE.  The whole plan.  Focusing on a specific point leaves the 'plan' out of the picture.  

No, My body is going back to dust and I will never touch, see or be near that decaying carcass of corruption again.  I am going straight to God, incorruptible and hopefully immortal. 

Maybe what we believe is what will happen to us.  You will be 'air',  I will be a heavenly body spirit and soul

Why does God say He is the God of the living and not the dead? We already know all souls belong to Him so why the distinction? 

I don't know.  It seems a sad way to look at it.  My life never ends and I see no reason to be without a body when God says I have two.    


Thanks for the discussion.  It is a matter that will soon be resolved and if neither of us have 'changed' and seen the light by now we probably wont.  Only real problem is that teaching false thing.  I really don't want to be in that line come judgment day. I really don't want you to be in that line either though.  It hurts knowing  one of us will be.  It always comes down to that 'every word uttered' doesn't it?  

The rest of this is just too much to handle in a single post, but know this: There was ONLY ONE CREATION, and it did NOT happen before Genesis 1:2!

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Frits said:

You think one of us will be transported to the Middle East?

Again, Scripte please.

Shalom, Frits.

You may not see it, but I find this passage of Scripture exciting:

Isaiah 59:1-60:11 (KJV)

1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee!
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

What are we if we are ruling and reigning with Him? Aren't we going to be "their (the Gentiles') kings?" I see us in 60:1-4 particularly.

[Uber Genius]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

an-insignificant "little children" to an ULTIMATE GENIUS (sorry Uber),

So you didn't happen to recognize the character in the avatar? No apologizes necessary, just a few seconds of research might be nice. But why start now.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

So you didn't happen to recognize the character in the avatar? No apologizes necessary, just a few seconds of research might be nice. But why start now.

Beep! Beep!

[DeighAnn]

On 1/31/2021 at 8:19 PM, Retrobyter said:

OH, REALLY? Stop right there for a moment. WHERE is it said that "there are men in heaven?" I challenge that OPINION. It's NOT in Scripture that I know of, and even if it were, it depends on the original word.

Wasn't it you that said that the "spirit" goes to heaven and the body stays in the earth?  Wasn't that what this was all about?  Because if not, I OWE YOU A HUGE APOLOGY, Because that was what lead up to a one day resurrection of 6 to 8 billion bodies.  So

I'll hold it right here, but it wont matter.   Old wine skins.  Can't put any new wine in em, can you?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

You know what babes don't know?  

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

ALL GOTTA DIE SOMETIME.  

We are HIS CHILDREN.  HE created us as we are.  THAT'S HOW HE LIKES US. 

I don't know if a bunch of people 'don't like themselves' or their bodies or whatever but GOD DOES.  He created everyone of us.  

 OUR FATHER,  has a plan and it ISN'T ABOUT THE WORDS and the details OF THE WORDS, it the details the words convey, the STORY.  

   
 What if INDEED, WE are the angels?  That's way spiritual.
LIFE DOESN'T END, doesn't get put on pause, it changes. 
 


  

But anyway, 

On 1/31/2021 at 8:19 PM, Retrobyter said:

The rest of this is just too much to handle in a single post, but know this: There was ONLY ONE CREATION, and it did NOT happen before Genesis 1:2!

As far as God  has given you so far.  But I would watch those kinds of statements,  knowing that GOD IS.  Think that all this 'looking' old and 'testing' old and old 'heavens' are just some part of a big elaborate deception on His part?  And that God created Satan on day 8 and then made up a back story to throw in a little confusion?    And so we don't really RETURN to Him?   OK

 
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF THE ONLY WAY FOR SOMEONE TO UNDERSTAND GODS WORD WAS IF THEY COULD DECIFER EVERY LAST Noun verb tense etc.  Shoot, God would have at least a dozen out of every billion make it to immortality.    
No wonder the WISDOM OF MAN doesn't go very well with Gods Truth.

No wonder the Jews didn't recognize Jesus, God walking amongst them.  Had the 'language' down to a science though.  But never got that Spirit did they?