The beasts of Revelation 13 - Interpreted and identified.

[Diaste]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:56 AM, RonaldBruno said:

I would agree that all false religions are created by Satan and adding to that list, false philosophies, astrology, occult practices, atheism as well. And how convenient it would be to have already made these religions, billions already worship this Beast. But I think the error in this view is that you included Judaism, which God created. So that is the flaw. They have been blinded for a purpose, so that the Gentile world can be offered salvation through Christ and be grafted in. (Romans 11). And so their Mashiach, is Jesus, they just are blind to that reality. Their blindness will be lifted during the Great Tribulation.

I agree. I would go a step further and say there is only one true religion:

"If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1

So in my mind even most of 'Christianity' is vain religion.

On 12/21/2020 at 11:56 AM, RonaldBruno said:

Facts: Biblical history surrounds Israel. God's chosen people have been defeated, enslaved by the Beast that has manifested itself as Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persian, Greece and Rome in different times. In current times, what countries surround Israel? Islamic. 

Truth.

On 12/21/2020 at 11:56 AM, RonaldBruno said:

I am not sure who is the Antichrist, nor can anyone else name him. Soros, Gates or someone who is never mentioned in the Media, like the Rothschilds, who work behind the scenes comes to mind. It's a spiritual war unbeknownst to them and they are just pawns used by Satan. The Rothschilds and Soros are Jewish, however Soros is an atheist, Gates as well. ???

The beast, "antichrist', can only be identified in one way;

"One of the heads of the beast

appeared to be mortally wounded. But the

mortal wound was healed, and

the whole world marveled and followed the beast. 

They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast,

and they worshiped the beast, saying,

“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”"

We are only going to KNOW when this happens. 

On 12/21/2020 at 11:56 AM, RonaldBruno said:

I believe this Covid-19 is diabolical. Satan works to control people by fear, lies and deception - all of which has surrounded this virus. I hear what this Great Reset has in store for us is Covid-21, a more deadly virus that would require ( when they get that vaccine) for everyone to take the vaccine. It is a dark cloud covering the world now. Someone interpreted the Rider on the White horse as the Antichrist, who has a crown (coronavirus), with a bow and goes out to conquer (as we have experienced). Then the Red Horse brings war - could be Red China. ??? What follows WWIII and world-wide collapsed economy? Famine (the Rider on the Black Horse), and Death (Pale Horse). Sad, but this will only last 3 1/2 years. 

I have studied this for 25 years and still don't have a grasp of it all, don't think anyone does! You'd think a pastor and excellent teacher like John MacArthur would have a grasp of it, but I see flaws in his view. I saw many flaws in Tim LaHaye's Left Behind Series. 

After 4 decades for me it becomes ever more apparent we know far less than we think we do. Too much speculation. We wander off. We can't seem to stick with what we are taught. We tenderize scripture to make it easier for the masses to chew on. We slice and dice scripture to fit our needs. We remold it like so much clay to fit our perceptions. We need to make scripture make sense in our mortal world when it's all geared toward spiritual truth and immortality. 

It's a spiritual act to Love God. It's all Spirit to love your neighbor as yourself. 

Eschatology is even more of the Spirit than we realize; it's all prophetic utterance. Holy men of God spoke as the Spirit moved them.

 

[abcdef]

On 2/20/2021 at 3:31 AM, Diaste said:

The beast, "antichrist', can only be identified in one way;

The beast is a nation. (Rome, if you can accept it.)

The Antichrist is it's leader. (Caesar)

The concept that the beast is a person and not a nation, is distorting the perception of the identification.

The sea beast rises out of the sea Rev 13:1, the earth beast rises from the earth Rev 13:11.

Both of these beasts are nations and not individuals.

But some want to change the identification of the beasts from nations to individuals. 

In Rev 13:3, one of the heads is wounded to death. This is not a person, but a nation.

The head that is wounded to death and revives is the 7th head and 8th head of Rev 17:8. Not a person, but a nation.

This distortion in the application of the descriptions is contrary to a consistent and uniform interpretation of the beasts.

In one verse saying that the beasts are nations, and then without reason, saying that it is a person.

This results in the descriptions of the beast nations being applied to an individual instead of a nation.

The identification is not consistent.

 

Quote

"One of the heads of the beast

appeared to be mortally wounded. But the

mortal wound was healed, and

the whole world marveled and followed the beast. 

They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast,

and they worshiped the beast, saying,

“Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”"

We are only going to KNOW when this happens. 

 

The beast here is a nation, not a person. 

A nation that ends, and then is renewed.

Edited February 22, 2021 by abcdef

[Diaste]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:34 AM, abcdef said:

The beast is a nation. (Rome, if you can accept it.)

The Antichrist is it's leader. (Caesar)

The concept that the beast is a person and not a nation, is distorting the perception of the identification.

The sea beast rises out of the sea Rev 13:1, the earth beast rises from the earth Rev 13:11.

Both of these beasts are nations and not individuals.

But some want to change the identification of the beasts from nations to individuals. 

In Rev 13:3, one of the heads is wounded to death. This is not a person, but a nation.

The head that is wounded to death and revives is the 7th head and 8th head of Rev 17:8. Not a person, but a nation.

This distortion in the application of the descriptions is contrary to a consistent and uniform interpretation of the beasts.

In one verse saying that the beasts are nations, and then without reason, saying that it is a person.

This results in the descriptions of the beast nations being applied to an individual instead of a nation.

The identification is not consistent.

 

The beast here is a nation, not a person. 

A nation that ends, and then is renewed.

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven."

That is clearly an individual. Nations do not speak, people do. People don't worship nations, they worship the leader of that nation. In the US the people don't elect a nation, they elect a person. 

The beast is a person, an individual.

"

10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction.

"

Clearly a person.

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven."

Rev 13:5, 

The sea beast Rev 13:1, rises up from the sea, is this an individual? It might be assumed that the "sea" is referring to the gentile nations. This is also shown as nations in Dan. 7:3.

So how do you change the beast that rises out of the sea, that is a nation, unto a person? Can you maintain the definition of the sea beast as a nation in Rev 13:1, through the rest of the chapter?

Then there is the earth beast who rises from the earth Rev 13:11, is this an individual, or a nation? If it is not an individual, and it does not rise up from the sea, as the others do, the it must be something else, maybe a different kind of a nation. A spiritual nation that is not like the gentiles, or includes gentiles.

Also keep in mind that these nations last centuries and not just one man's lifetime.

The 42 months is an image and not literal.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

That is clearly an individual. Nations do not speak, people do.

There are people who speak for the nation. They are the voice of the nation. 

For example, Caesar spoke for Rome for centuries. The Bishop of Rome has spoken for Rome for 1400 years, approx.

The nations just do not have one voice. Over centuries there are many.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

People don't worship nations, they worship the leader of that nation.

In Rev 13 people worship the 2 beasts. The nations and their leaders. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar.

For example, have you ever heard about when someone goes back to the RCC? They say that they "went home to Rome". It may not be a current Bishop of Rome that they admire, it's the "glorious system and power", that they adore, love, marvel at, worship.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

In the US the people don't elect a nation, they elect a person. 

He is the mouth of the nation, but the voice changes over time.

If you picture the U. S. from it's beginning until now as a barking beagle, the beagle would be the only one barking, but the bark would represent many people over time. 

This is the same thing, the beasts are nations that span centuries. They have a voice, but it is many different people.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

The beast is a person, an individual.

All of the beasts, heads, and horns are nations.

The dragon of Rev 20:2, 7, is a nation. Shown by Rev 12:3.

The dragon nation that that comes out of the abyss in Rev 20:7 is Rome.  

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"

10There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

11The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction.

"

Rev 17:10, "Five have fallen", who are they? Caesars or nations?

If they are Caesars, then the Caesar who followed the one of John's time would be the 7th and 8th heads, who was that?

If the 5 who have fallen are nations, who are they? 

If they are nations and not Caesars in the beginning, what is the scriptural support for changing the definition from a nation into an individual in the middle of the passage?

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Clearly a person.

The Roman Empire sea beast is Caesar, and Caesar is the Roman Empire, they are the same entity nation.

The Caesar worship system continues to this day, adored and worshiped, as the "holy father".

The Bishop of Rome is the RCC, and the RCC is the Bishop of Rome, they are the same entity nation.

Rome/RCC, centuries.

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

Rev 13:5, 

The sea beast Rev 13:1, rises up from the sea, is this an individual? It might be assumed that the "sea" is referring to the gentile nations. This is also shown as nations in Dan. 7:3.

So how do you change the beast that rises out of the sea, that is a nation, unto a person? Can you maintain the definition of the sea beast as a nation in Rev 13:1, through the rest of the chapter?

Then there is the earth beast who rises from the earth Rev 13:11, is this an individual, or a nation? If it is not an individual, and it does not rise up from the sea, as the others do, the it must be something else, maybe a different kind of a nation. A spiritual nation that is not like the gentiles, or includes gentiles.

Also keep in mind that these nations last centuries and not just one man's lifetime.

The 42 months is an image and not literal.

The 'sea' probably is the nations of the world, probably along with the masses of people. Nations don't exist of there are no people so nations=people and people=nations.  It's not like only a nation can rise from the 'sea'. Some of the mightiest dictators experienced travels and education in other countries then returned to their native land, truly rising from the sea of the masses. So while it could be a nation it's also true of an individual. 

I would say time, times, and half a time is a metaphor for season, not a specific time; 42 months is too exact. What it is and how many is much different than the cryptic 'time, times, and half a time'.

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

There are people who speak for the nation. They are the voice of the nation. 

For example, Caesar spoke for Rome for centuries. The Bishop of Rome has spoken for Rome for 1400 years, approx.

The nations just do not have one voice. Over centuries there are many.

True, but the scripture isn't saying the beast opened it's mouth to be a spokesperson for a mass of flesh. I reject this argument.

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

In Rev 13 people worship the 2 beasts. The nations and their leaders. Caesar is Rome and Rome is Caesar.

For example, have you ever heard about when someone goes back to the RCC? They say that they "went home to Rome". It may not be a current Bishop of Rome that they admire, it's the "glorious system and power", that they adore, love, marvel at, worship.

I don't disagree here though I know little about the worshippers of a false religion and what they think or feel. Scripture uses the term 'autos' to describe the beast. That is 'self'. It's also 'he, she, or it'. The term for nations in Rev does not appear in Rev 13. That term is 'ethnos'.  

In Rev 17 "basileia: kingdom, sovereignty, royal power" is the term for kingdom; "basileus: a king" is how the 7 kings are described. Individuals. The 8th being the beast from the sea from Rev 13.

 

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

He is the mouth of the nation, but the voice changes over time.

If you picture the U. S. from it's beginning until now as a barking beagle, the beagle would be the only one barking, but the bark would represent many people over time. 

This is the same thing, the beasts are nations that span centuries. They have a voice, but it is many different people.

True. Still an individual at the top leading the whole charade and this is the focus of Rev 13. Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Peron, the Khans, subjugated entire nations and large parts of the world. A nation is not complete without a leader, one person at the top. It's the same down to the smallest municipality. A nation without a leader is a group of refugees, not a nation.

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

All of the beasts, heads, and horns are nations.

The dragon of Rev 20:2, 7, is a nation. Shown by Rev 12:3.

The dragon nation that that comes out of the abyss in Rev 20:7 is Rome.  

Rome has nothing to do with eschatology, just wanted to get that out of the way. 

Rev 17:

"7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. 

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

Again, 'autos'; self, he, she, it. Nation is 'ethnos'.

 

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

Rev 17:10, "Five have fallen", who are they? Caesars or nations?

If they are Caesars, then the Caesar who followed the one of John's time would be the 7th and 8th heads, who was that?

If the 5 who have fallen are nations, who are they? 

If they are nations and not Caesars in the beginning, what is the scriptural support for changing the definition from a nation into an individual in the middle of the passage?

See above.

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

The Roman Empire sea beast is Caesar, and Caesar is the Roman Empire, they are the same entity nation.

The Caesar worship system continues to this day, adored and worshiped, as the "holy father".

The Bishop of Rome is the RCC, and the RCC is the Bishop of Rome, they are the same entity nation.

Rome/RCC, centuries.

 

Yes. And no. Rome is not an eschatological player. It's a false premise with zero support.

Many forget the succession in Daniel: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi. The nations of the Diadochi still exist to this day: Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Syria, Iran, Iraq. The succession didn't go to Rome in Daniel 8;

"20The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

This is the truth. Not Rome. Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus, and Seleucus. None are Roman and Rome did not arise to power through Alexander, nor did Rome rise to power till well after Alexander. There is no time gap here as the power goes directly to the Four called the Diadochi.

Maybe the RCC is the whore of Babylon but it sure isn't the 8th beast.

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rome has nothing to do with eschatology, just wanted to get that out of the way.

 

Yes. And no. Rome is not an eschatological player. It's a false premise with zero support.

My brother,

You are under the spell of the Antichrist.  

--------

Rome killed millions of Israel.

Herod and the Jewish leaders tried to kill Jesus as an infant, but ended up killing all of the infants in Israel.

Rome killed John the Baptist, beheaded.

Rome killed Jesus and the apostles.

Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Rome chased and scattered Israel into the gentile nations, where they were forced to live for 1900 years.

And while they were in the gentile nations, they were persecuted by the Bishop of Rome who killed millions more.

For the last 1500 years at least, the bishop of Rome has had a Satanic based power of lies and murder of Israel.

-------

Part of the spell, of the deceiving spirit is, that there is a denial of this time period. A denial of history. A diminishing of the truth about Rome and Israel. 

Why does ROME hate the people of Israel?  Didn't you ever think about who is the true Israel? Rome or Israel?

Rome has said for centuries that Israel is forever cut off and Rome is exclusively Israel. Oh, your not saved unless you are Roman Catholic, baptized into the worship of the "holy father" on his throne in Rome. "Unless you are RCC, you are not a Christian," that is what they say.

You see, the RCC false Israel has a 1500 year old problem, which is the real people of Israel are still alive.

They have tried to kill them all, but the remnants were too scattered for Rome to have power over all of them.

------

Do you really think that the Bishop of Rome has no power? 1.2 billion people are in the RCC. International tentacles that reach into almost every nation and endorse rulers and kings.

Just see what happens if a politician or some tv preacher says something against the Bishop of Rome.

-----

I know what they are saying on tv, and in a lot of denominations. All denying or remaining silent about his role in history. Maybe if we had lived in the time of Martin Luther, then we would understand better.

You know, when it was death to have a Bible? Death to have it translated? 

And under whose authority and blessing would you be burned at the steak? The Bishop of Rome.

------

I'm sorry to let off some steam on this, but my brothers and sisters are following a lie.

The deception that Caesar and the Bishop of Rome are not the Antichrist, beasts.

----

How can we skip this history, not speculation, but history.

Maybe some will say, "No, Rome is Greece." Or some will say,"It is all future." Or some will say, "It is all fulfilled before 70 AD." Or Some will say, "there is a gap".

Don't you see?

ALL OF THEM TEACH THAT THE BISHOP OF ROME CAN'T BE THE ANTICHRIST, BECAUSE THE TIME PERIOD AFTER 70 AD DOESN'T EXIST IN PROPHECY! 

Even Martin Luther wrote that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist.

-----

I know what is said on the tv and what is popular to some degree, and it has made the theories popular. "Oh, everybody agrees that the Bishop of Rome can't be the Antichrist, because the Bible is all future and nothing in it is past," that is what they say. Or maybe, "The Bible is all past and nothing is future," really?

----

I'm sorry for rambling on like this, but I feel that I have to be direct and to the point to break the spell that is like chariot wheels in battle. 

In some cases, believing the opposite of what the scriptures show.

-----

[canada]

Well stated truth abcdef.

[abcdef]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 17:10, 11,

 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

Again, 'autos'; self, he, she, it. Nation is 'ethnos'.

Ok, so if the 8 heads are individuals, name them.

[abcdef]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Many forget the succession in Daniel: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi. The nations of the Diadochi still exist to this day: Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Syria, Iran, Iraq. The succession didn't go to Rome in Daniel 8;

No, the nations of the Diadochi do not exist today. Their time ended when Rome took power over the people of Israel.

The tribes/nations that exist today have been shaped, most recently by WW 1 & 2. But historically by Mongols, Islam, Turks, and Israel.

Not Greece.

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

"20The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

Yes, but the horn of Alexander and the 4 horns of the generals are all counted as one beast, the third beast Dan 7:6.

The power of Greece, the third beast with 4 heads, ended when Rome invaded.

You appear to be saying that Greece is still in power now?

 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is the truth. Not Rome. Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus, and Seleucus. None are Roman and Rome did not arise to power through Alexander, nor did Rome rise to power till well after Alexander. There is no time gap here as the power goes directly to the Four called the Diadochi.

True, but their time ended 2000 years ago.

========================================================================

The statue of Dan 2 shows a parallel time line to that of Dan 7. There the beasts are seen as nations ruling over the people of Israel.

Where are we in the statue of Dan 2 time line?

The time of the brass nation? Or the iron nation?

 

=====================================================

It is fascinating to me, to see how some will come up with almost any explanation, to keep from giving Rome the proper place in the timeline. 

An idea to resist, exonerate, forget about Rome and all the evil that they have done.

Defending Rome.

-----

But it must be done to make the pretrib time line work.

Because if you say that the iron of the Dan 2 time line is Rome, or the 4th beast of Dan 7 is Rome,

Then the pretrib time line gets holes and brakes apart.

Pretrib cannot be correct, if the beast is Rome, and Caesar and the Bishop of Rome are the already revealed Antichrist.

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

 

But it must be done to make the pretrib time line work.

Because if you say that the iron of the Dan 2 time line is Rome, or the 4th beast of Dan 7 is Rome,

Then the pretrib time line gets holes and brakes apart.

Pretrib cannot be correct, if the beast is Rome, and Caesar and the Bishop of Rome are the already revealed Antichrist.

I don't know what you are saying here. I don't find the pretrib doctrine to be valid. Whether Rome and the Roman Empire is in or out of the timeline is irrelevant to when Jesus returns and when the gathering occurs.

But I agree.

 

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

No, the nations of the Diadochi do not exist today. Their time ended when Rome took power over the people of Israel.

The tribes/nations that exist today have been shaped, most recently by WW 1 & 2. But historically by Mongols, Islam, Turks, and Israel.

Not Greece.

Asia Minor[Turkey], Egypt, Greece are all countries that exist today. The Seleucid empire was centered in Iraq and the grandsons of Seleucus I ruled in Syria. Syria still exists. Literally these are all countries on the modern map.

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes, but the horn of Alexander and the 4 horns of the generals are all counted as one beast, the third beast Dan 7:6.

The power of Greece, the third beast with 4 heads, ended when Rome invaded.

You appear to be saying that Greece is still in power now?

 

Not in power, but Greece still exists. It's right on the map. I don't believe I implied they are a world power, just that they still exist, as scripture said would happen. "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time."

The world domination of Greece ended when Alexander died. At that time the Roman Empire was barely surviving having to repel invaders and hold off usurpation within their own borders. Rome did not succeed Greece in 330 BC as at this time the Empire had only just succeeded in bringing the Italian peninsula under one banner. Rome was in no way powerful enough to take on the mighty Diadochi in the late 3rd century BC. 

Just as a matter of well established historical fact the Grecian empire went to the Diadochi. It was the Syrian General and grandson of Seleucus Nicator, who was a top General of Alexander, Antiochus Epiphanes that committed the A of D in 167 BC. Interestingly Roman Generals traveled from Italy in 169 BC to meet Antiochus and oppose his planned attack on Egypt. Rome at this time ruled neither Egypt nor Syria or the Levant.

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

The statue of Dan 2 shows a parallel time line to that of Dan 7. There the beasts are seen as nations ruling over the people of Israel.

Where are we in the statue of Dan 2 time line?

The time of the brass nation? Or the iron nation?

And a parallel to Dan 8. 

This: "There the beasts are seen as nations ruling over the people of Israel." is not interpretive criteria. I'm not saying it didn't happen, it did, but in no angelic interpretation is this ever seen in regards to eschatology. 

Are we just to ignore that Greece ruled over Israel? And the Seleucid kings ruled over Israel? And the Syrian Generals after that and before Rome? Islam held on to Israel for 500 years as well while Jewish people were in Israel and took the Levant from the Romans. Anyway, it's not proper interpretation in this case.