What is the "Apostasy" mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Glad we have agreement but remember consensus among two or more people is irrelevant (fallacious) if the consensus is not shared by God and His written word correctly rendered.  

The hope I have! I don't know if it's achievable or should be. I actually like disagreement that can be discussed, debated, hashed out with honesty and respect. I think our differences contained in our created being is how it should be and is a testament to the abundance of the Creator. We should all be thankful for this.

But to see and read the exact same scripture penned by the faithful vessel in all it's profound truth from the heart of God and the guidance of the Spirit should not exist, in my opinion. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

What others do or don't do is no measure of my posts (or yours). To the degree that you or I or anyone else in a given thread adheres to an already-established view or set of views/doctrines/methods, etc. we can make general statements consistent with that view or approach but otherwise a post stands or falls on its own, based on some objective and externally established measures. My views, for example, don't fit neatly within a single given already-established perspective but my methods do. There is a certain irony to this because, ideally, if we all follow the same methods we should all reach the same conclusions. 

It was just a commentary of the curious fascination that arises when it does occur. It's not an influence on me but it is a barrier in the practioner.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

As that pertains to the specific matter of dispute upon which you've buttinskied , that of the claim satan had a kingdom he fully ruled in person and will have another, if we all handle scripture according to already well-established and long-established precepts we should be able to reach a common conclusion AND the one single "precept" you and I are discussing is that of the HS never contradicting the written word. Rhema NEVER contradicts logos. That is a standard by which all who are called by God can and should agree. 

Well, I wasn't really. I was bringing up the disastrous misapplication and the lack of awareness by the group or individual unless it's some other group or individual. It appears to be deep conceit and self, or group, exaltation rather than listening to the One who set the words in print. 

I have spoken of this before; There cannot be many various results from the same source material all taken as truth. Yet that is exactly what there is in the church. All making claims to strict adherence to the Word and all with different truth. 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

In the particular case of satan having a kingdom of his own he fully reigns in person and his possessing another in the future there might be many reasons how or why the case for that position proves untenable but we need not consider any of the other (many) problems since there is one single over-arching self-contradicting, self-refuting inconsistent condition: in defense of the affirmative case presented a contradiction between the Spirit and the written word was made! That is always a fatal error, both exegetically and logically. 

All I'm going to say about this is Lucifer was the highest created being from what I can glean. He operates at the pleasure of the Throne, period.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

I haven't belabored the point but the claim made about satan and his kingdom fails presuppositionally. Many do not understand presuppositional apologetics and I don't know where you or the other poster is in regards to understanding and applying pre-exiting and preeminent suppositions but all that is necessary to be understood is the word "almighty." The moment we concede God is all mighty then all other mights exist necessarily within that one single undeniable, unavoidable necessary condition. There is only one King. There is ultimately only one kingdom, even if the Bible speaks of two, three, ten, or more "kingdoms" because all other kingdoms fall within the unavoidable undeniable fact or truth GOD IS ALMIGHTY! Whatever might satan, Michael, you, me, Fred, Ethel, Bert r Ernie might possess it is necessarily subordinate to and subject to The Almighty Creator God.

Well, I think logic doesn't have a sure foothold in what many times seems to be emotional brands of cognitive thought. That's tough hide to pierce.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

And we all can and should 1) agree to that condition and 2) use it to measure all teachings within Christendom, because folks who teach a King Satan theology are wrong. 

And I have explained elsewhere how and why it is impossible for a "King Satan" to exist. I have done so using whole scripture (surveyed from Genesis 1 all the way through the last chapter of Revelation) AND considering and examining the scriptures presented in defense of the King Satan position plus others not broached by the King Satan argument. 

Isn't that how discussions here are supposed to work?

I agree. The forum is set up for it. Not everybody has the same set of rules however.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

 

As you astutely point out we should all agree the Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the written word. And because we all can and should agree accordingly we also necessarily know anyone who pits the two in opposition to one another has at best a fatal inconsistency in their case and at worst is asserting something entirely unscriptural. That one single solitary precept is not the only precept but it is an enormously powerful one upon which we can and should all rely. 

Yes. Scripture does not contradict scripture and a word supposedly from the Spirit will not contradict the written word, and all truth in scripture is of equal weight in that it is all from God.(barring the times when God is not speaking, there is a lot of that)

Not all scripture is the word of God, but it's every word important for our instruction.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

But you and I both know it is not going to stop some from asserting it (even if they lurked this recent exchange between us).  

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. I completely and wholeheartedly agree. 
 

 

You might want to clarify that too because all scripture is the word of God, but not all the word of God are the words of God. Even the lies told by satan are God's word to us. Every record of human disobedience is God's revelation of Himself. 

Every record of human disobedience is God's revelation of human nature to humans. How God approaches that disobedience is the revelation of His character and desires to us. imo

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

1 Corinthians 10:1-6
"For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;  and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  and all ate the same spiritual food;  and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.  Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.  Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved." 

Romans 15:1-4
"Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves.  Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification.  For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, 'The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.' For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;  so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." 

You are correct about it ALL being important for our instruction. 

 

It's a small distinction, you probably said it better. I just meant that sections of verbatim conversation like Lucifer's plan to usurp the kingdom and exalt himself is not God's word or the word of God. It's the word of Lucifer. What is the word of God is the entirety of the matter and the fact the Spirit inspired the faithful to record it.

Man could not discern the attempted coup occurred, but the word of God by the Spirit came to a man for our enlightenment. That record is very much God's, by God and to us for our good and understanding.

Not disagreeing here at all. 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Would you please clarify that? 

Because as written it reads as though you're saying the scriptures should not exist "penned by the faithful vessel in all it's profound truth from the heart of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit," and I am fairly confident that is not what you mean to post. 

Perhaps the intent was to say we should not be able to see and read the exact same scripture and walk away with two entirely different understandings of that same exact scripture. If that is what was intended then I wholeheartedly agree. 

Wow. I didn't finish the thought. In my defense we are having a huge problem with the spread of covid at work. All office personnel are positive and quarantined. Half the shop is out and we have one person still in the hospital that may still be in the oxygen text, but I can't confirm that. Yesterday was pretty intense with all that going on, I believe it was two more out. I feel there may be an exodus caused by mishandling the moment. I was ready to bolt last week. 

Anyway, let me finish the thought here:

13 hours ago, Diaste SHOULD HAVE said:

But to see and read the exact same scripture penned by the faithful vessel in all it's profound truth from the heart of God and the guidance of the Spirit which then results in varied truths, understandings and conclusions across denominations and individuals should not exist, in my opinion.

Apologies.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Find me the doctrinal statement teaching satan had a kingdom of his own he fully ruled in person. It is NOT an Historicist, Amillennialist, Postmillennialist, or Idealist position. The best thing the Church could do if it truly wanted unity is discard Dispensational Premillennialism. If the Dispensationalist truly wanted a restored Church the best thing they could do is abandon their own eschatologically-driven theology. 

When it's such a lucrative doctrine I doubt it would be abandoned. It won't happen internally. External pressure will have to be exerted and perhaps even great external pressure. Maybe I'm just jaded, cynical and more that mildly perturbed but experience tells me it's silos, politics and turf wars coupled with protectionism as core values; or at least unspoken rules

They talk nice face to face and betray one another in the comfort of familiar settings.

Indoctrination is too deep; the pressure of positive and negative reinforcement too strong for internal change. 

Look at what you're asking. You want a culture change where there is no internal support. I not saying it shouldn't happen or it's impossible; it should and it's not.

From their point of view it's not even zero sum it's catastrophic loss and the bewilderment of total reversal of perceptions. Not to mention the embarrassment of admitting they were so very, very wrong.

I imagine you could work on an individual and convince them. But a culture change in a vast corporate structure that bases success on material gain? Might as well try to convince GM to leave off automobiles and start making furniture.

But be of good cheer my friend, their day is coming, they will get their chance.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Diaste

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

But to see and read the exact same scripture penned by the faithful vessel in all it's profound truth from the heart of God and the guidance of the Spirit which then results in varied truths, understandings and conclusions across denominations and individuals should not exist, in my opinion.

Yes, the ideal of unity is ever before us with the reality of division a cross we bear. 

Eph 4:11-16  And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,  (12)  for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,  (13)  till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;  (14)  that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,  (15)  but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—  (16)  from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, the ideal of unity is ever before us with the reality of division a cross we bear. 

Eph 4:11-16  And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,  (12)  for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,  (13)  till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;  (14)  that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,  (15)  but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—  (16)  from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Which I think is quantified by 'many are called, few are chosen' and 'narrow is the way and straight is the gate that leads to righteousness, and few there be that find it.'

Sadly, it's not going to be everyone.

[Michael37]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sadly, it's not going to be everyone.

All are welcome, all are invited, but God knows why not all are elected.