What is the "Apostasy" mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

And as I explained, I don't really care what the translators have deemed it to mean, only what fits. No faith is spoken of in the passage, the Gathering unto Christ Jesus is. For starters no one can take letters//epistles and know full well the meaning, Paul says in one place, when I was with you I told you these things, thus in the letters we will not get the full explanation in many cases, and we never get the letters that the Thessalonians wrote, so we are getting bits and pieces of a back and forth conversation. My forte in biblical prophesy is understanding how to read between the lines. 

For instance, I get this all the time, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 had to have come out of the 70th week tribulation, it says so in the passage. But it doesn't say that, men just think it says that because men see a word and run with it. The bible actually informs us it can not be these 70th week people that are seen in Rev. 7:9-17, if we take all the facts and put them together (Line upon line, precept upon precept.)

Under the altar at the 5th Seal these people are told SPECIFICALLY that they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they were, so that is pretty straight forward, they have to wait until the 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ is over because he kills and Martyrs for 42 months, we know that. Des another scripture anywhere confirm this? Yes, Rev. 20:4 SPECIFCALLY says that ONLY those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast will live and reign with Christ Jesus for 1000 years on this earth AND they are judged in Rev. 20:4, AFTER Jesus returns to earth. So, they did not return with Jesus Christ after getting a glorious body, else they would not be judged in Rev. 20:4.

So the mystery rages on, who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 who came out of the Great Tribulation? Well, it seems they are the Church, and Jesus told us in John's gospel that we would have continual tribulation on this earth. So, we had 2000 some odd years of Church Age tribulation, where many of our brothers were martyred, and after that we will have a 70th week which will also be tribulation unto those who come unto Christ AFTER the Rapture, and then finally we will have a 3.5 year period which will be THE GREATEST ever troubles seen by mankind. 

So, how can the word GREAT be used in these two situations? Isn't 2000 GREATER that 7 ? Of course it is, so John can describe those have come out of the 2000 some odd years Church Age with the word GREAT can't he? Because 2000>7. 

We limit how God can use GREAT to describe something, and then we marvel when we do not get that Rev. 7:9-17 is the Raptured Church, and not the 70th week Martyrs. All I can say is follow all the clues, not other men. 

The Clues in 2 Thess. 2 lead us to think there is no reasons for the Thessalonians to FEAR, and that is because the Church will DEPART, Not from the faith which would have zero effect on them fearing or not fearing, but the Church DEPARTING before the Wrath of God comes would have an effect. 

God Bless.

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Thanks for continuing to engage. This is a great subject that needs to be carefully examined, so that we are not deceived .....2 Thes 2 and "apostacy"

Ahhhh, a fellow chess player! Great game....lots of strategy involved.

I'm sorry to say, but NO, you did not win the debate. A debate is about a topic or subject, and when the opposing team (yourself ) veers off into another book (revelation) ..... then the subject/topic also changes. You can't claim to win a debate under such circumstances. 

The topic is 2 Thes 2:3.....and the meaning of "apostacy

Bringing up Armageddon, WW2, Pearl Harbor, nukes, asteroids, etc will not help your argument......you're going down rabbit holes trying to steer the conversation to your points....instead of answering the relevant points made about the topic of the "apostacy"

This is not the case, the Bible is God's Word and thus its all fair game, its a continual stream of God's precepts/desires/ways, etc. etc. (His essence). 

When you refuse to answer points in a debate as you full well know, you will lose that debate. Look it up, you can't just dodge debate points and win. 

The Topic is the Church being RAPTURED BEFORE the 70th week troubles thus ANY POINT in the whole bible that proves the Church is Raptured before the 70th week is game !! Why don't you want to look at all of God's TRUTHS? Come on brother.

Heck, you guys can't even prove that 2 Thess. 2 is about THE FAITH because its not, so in that case alone, you have lost just on that one point alone.

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This is your opinion only. There is no scriptural proof of any of this. This is pure conjecture on your part. 

 

No its not brother, this is a fact. Look at the Joel 2:31 Prophecy, then look at the 6th Seal Prophecy, BOTH are fulfilled in the Rev. 8 first four Trumps. See the Sun and Moons light diminished in the 4th Trump. God Judges this evil world over a 42 month period of time. The Anti-Christ uses this chaos to GO FORTH Conquering. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The second advent is the same as the second coming. 

 

That is just not so, Jesus has been to this earth many times IMHO, and John 20 proves he left and came back at that time. Jesus coming to the clouds to Rapture the Church would ne be a part of his Second Advent. You guys try to persuade others via clues that are OFF KILTER. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Paul is saying in 2Thes "When the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire".

This is the second coming/second advent....when He is REVEALED!!!!!!

Agreed, but it happens AFTER the Rapture, as Rev. 5:9, Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 19 all proves, the Church is seen IN HEAVEN BEFORE the Seals are opened, you can't get past it, so why not engage, you are only running from the TRUTHS of God brother. 

The Saints COME with Jesus, the bible says so. And no, we do not meet Jesus in the sky and come straight back down. Rev. 19 proves this is a false notion, doesn't it? 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I don't know how you cannot see this.....or maybe you just refuse to see this. 

When a baby is born, that infant is then revealed to the parents, for the first time. It is the first time that their parents see the infant.  It is not revealed again and again......the revealing is only one time. After that, it's just, well, business as usual.

Easy, because its not FACTUAL. Jesus will be REVEALED to those on earth, not to those who were Raptured. Moving facts around doesn't change the facts brother. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Paul talks about 'that day' several times. It's the day that Jesus is revealed. It's the day of the resurrection and rapture. It's also the DAY when His WRATH is poured out on the wicked. We are not subject to WRATH....tribulation yes, wrath NO! You don't understand the difference in the  two terms. It seems you are mixing them together and using the same terms interchangeably. 

I don't get it tbh. I don't get why people strain at a gnat to prove a point. You can't prove these points because they are shown to not be factual in Rev. 5:9. In Rev. 4:4 and in Rev. 19 where we Marry the Lamb in Heaven and then return with Jesus Christ. That Day of the Lord is when God's Wrath starts, and that covers 3.5 years. Its not really debatable tbh. We can see it in Rev. 8, we can see all of these things in Joel 2:31. All one has to do is see all the Wrath God serves up to humankind and you would know it can't happen in ONE DAY, basically no one agrees with you here brother. To be honest, I don't even get this concept. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Finally....you're back on the topic....... well, sort of.

Here you go again bringing Revelation into the debate. The BofRev was not written until many years later. Paul had no knowledge about the BofR when he wrote the letters to the Thessalonians. Just stay with Paul's letters for this discussion.

Yes, the Rapture is PROVEN to be BEFORE the Seals are opened, thus its Relevant.

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Paul says that we go through tribulation. He states in 2Thes 1:5 about our perseverance during persecutions and afflictions that we endure "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy for the Kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering"

Persecutions and afflictions and suffering....is this not tribulation? 

Of course it is. But it's not God's wrath. We are not subject to His wrath. Tribulation to prove our worthiness....a resounding YES!.....even though our holiness is in Christ.

Well, we know we go through tribulation because all time on earth is tribulation. But it's not the Greatest Troubles Ever nor is it God's Wrath, both happen over the exact same 3.5 year time periods.

The Church Marries the Lamb in Heaven. The Bride and a Jewish Groom stay in the fathers bridal suite for 7 days. (7 Years). 

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The Latin Vulgate used Dicessio (or close to that) and it meant DEPART also." 

Is that so? Let's investigate shall we......

Sounds like the words of Dr. Thomas Ice.......... "In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’*

Dr. Ice declares this to be "fact". But is it? Is it a fact?

What did Jerome actually think "apostasia/dissecio might be? In 406, he wrote a letter to Algasia in which he interprets 2Thes 2:3 as being a revolt of nations from Roman authority:

"For he [Paul] says that unless the falling away (discessio), which is called apostasia, comes first, so that all the nations who are subject to the Roman authority withdraw from them; and he will be revealed, that is, manifested, whom all the words of the prophets announced beforehand, the man of sin (author’s translation).

Source: http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/epist/epist04.htm

Ice also claims that Wycliffe's translation read 'departure' as though he had meant it as rapture. Wycliffe translated the Latin Vulgate into English. But here is what Wycliffe actually wrote:

https://www.alankurschner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/wycliffe-apostasia-dissension-1024x759.jpg

Clearly then, neither the Vulgate nor the Wycliffe Bible translated from it support any idea that Paul was speaking of a physical departure.

Dr Ice continues his "misconstruing of words and their meanings"...... shameful!

 

My blog stands on its own accord. We will be raptured before the 70th week. Half the Church will not make it to the wedding. 

God Bless brother...............take care. See, we don't have to get all bent out of shape when we disagree. 

[DeighAnn]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:11 AND FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE.  

WHY DOES ANYONE SUPPOSE GOD PLACED THIS RIGHT HERE??? 

RIGHT ON THIS VERY SUBJECT???

What is this "delusion"?  


Would that be like saying God will be treating ONE generation different than every other one that has ever been?

Would that be like saying God for one generation and one generation only will stop be a respecter of persons and become one?

Would that be like saying God will no longer be "JUST" to all,  but this one generation will be treated differently?  

Would that be like saying that to this one generation instead of being appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgment, they will have their judgment come FIRST?

Would that be like saying the blessed hope is not for the salvation offered but is really just for this one generations "pre trib rap"?


or maybe that delusion comes from just taking what is written and giving it a new order of events by disregarding the original word God used and instead going with a definition from the way a man translated it, so as to add an entire world changing event (which is never mentioned) completely disregarding its being written 3 times in 3 different ways, to clarify what was being taken incorrectly from the first letter written,  to put forth that something NEVER WRITTEN in the manner claimed not by God or anyone God used to write the Bible and only figured out by the wisdom of man to be truth

WHICH when really looked deeper into serves to do nothing but
keep people from putting on the gospel armor "cause they won't be here",
setting them up as ripe for the picking because they are freed up to believe whatever comes their way 
to FOLLOW anything 
to TAKE anything that comes along because
that belief 
that tells them that they " wont be here for the deception "

BOTTOM LINE PRE TRIB SAYS "DO NOT BE DECEIVED" NEVER NEEDED TO BE SAID/warned. 

(SO just who was Jesus talking to?) (The Jews, who don't read the NT?  Does that make sense to anyone?)

 
NOT TO MENTION the HUGE STEALING from the Lords Day and the Glory of His return by making it into

a returning not REALLY as Lord of Lord and King of kings (this time)  
a returning not REALLY for the day of vengeance (this time) 
a returning in which not all who are alive and remain are changed  (this time) 
a returning in which not all the dead risen first (this time) 


?



DELUSION and the words related to it. 

4106 
a wandering  -   deceit -   delusion -  error, deception  - sin  - deviant behavior

-   a departure from what God says is true;

an error which results in wandering, roaming into sin. 

4108  

misleading, deceiving, wandering, a deceiver, imposter.


4105  I lead astray, deceive, cause to wander.




FOR SOME, IF YOU CAN'T SEE PRE TRIB RAP FROM THESE VERSES

not to suffer Gods Wrath
except for a falling away come first
kept from the hour
church not mentioned after churches receive their reports in Revelation though all are told to apparently "overcome only what is past" but nothing future (huh?)

you are considered the deluded one. 

But everyone of those are simply answered in Gods Word.  Not to suffer wrath comes from belief in Christ  Kept from the hour only requires armor,  which will also keep you from falling away and "the churches" when Satan arrives will be those who did fall away or never came to and will be worshipping him. 


EVER WONDER WHAT GOD WAS TALKING ABOUT in these?  (Yes, I have been told I have no understanding and all the rest already but I still believe that is for the individual to decide for themselves whether it is applicable or not)
 

Ezekiel 28:21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,

Ezekiel 28:22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.

Ezekiel 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 28:24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

(Doesn't seem to be "from heaven gone and returned", does it?)

Ezekiel 28:26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.



or even 
 

Ezekiel 13:4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Ezekiel 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

(ask any pre tribber where "The Lord has said it", and you will find they have no where WHERE THE LORD SAID IT)

Ezekiel 13:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

(while up in heaven??)

Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.




(IT SHALL FALL)



 

Ezekiel 13:12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?

(CAN you imagine having to explain your wisdom to GOD when there is no place to point to but your own imaginations?)

Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.

Ezekiel 13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;

Ezekiel 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

(Anyone know of any other theory that has to do with flying off the earth?)

Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

(Does pre trib promise life?)

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.


Those who claim to be oh so wise, oh my.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

When you refuse to answer points in a debate as you full well know, you will lose that debate. Look it up, you can't just dodge debate points and win. 

Well then, maybe you won't refuse to answer this again

Does Jesus leave the war raging in heaven to come get the church or does He come get it before the war starts or does He follow right after Satan but arrive before?  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Departing = the Gathering unto Christ in the very first verse. I truly have no clue how you guys can continue to argue a defeated position. 

The 24 Elders are the Church.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So, the Church is seen here with many of the promises they were PROMISED if they OVERCAME. Doubt what I am saying? Well, READ the letters to the 7 Churches !!

WHERE DOES GOD SAY THE ELDERS ARE THE CHURCH pre trib raptured?  

NO WHERE.  

THAT IS JUST MADE THAT UP. 

You can underline the words and note the white raiment and crowns of gold but IT NEVER SAYS THAT THEY ARE THE "PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH".  YOU SEEM TO DISCOUNT THE MILLIONS  THAT HAVE RETURNED TO THE LORD BEFORE THE LAST GENERATION LIVES ON EARTH.  YOU DON'T THINK THEY WOULD BE ELDERS.  SAY LIKE ABRAHAM, ISSAC, ENOCH, ELIJAH, OR THE APOSTLES OR THE HEADS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES?   WHAT ABOUT THE PROPHETS WHO OVERCAME REAL PERSECUTION LIKE TORTURE AND DEATH? 

SO THE PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH IS NOT SEEN HERE, YOU JUST SAY IT IS. 

 

BUT GOD NEVER SAYS IT, NOT THAT THAT EVER STOPS IT from pouring out.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Now, how is it you guys can't put this together? The Church Age is Rev. 2 and 3, then in Rev. 4:1 we see THE RAPTURE, then in Rev. 4:4 we see the very PROMISES promised to those that overcame, with the "24 Elders". And in 1 Chronicles 24 we see there are 24 Orders of the Priesthood. (NOW REMEMBER THAT)

The Body of Christ doesn't have an end.  The fulness of the gentiles DOES NOT END AN AGE.  THE RETURN OF CHRIST ends an age and His return ends all flesh and blood.  

SO WE do not see.  WE BELIEVE that those promises are not made to the last generation only.  WE BELIEVE that Christians have been around for many generations. 

THE PRIESTHOOD is not made up of "pre raptured church" as we can see in the millennial temple.  Unless you are saying that all the church is made up of nothing but Levitical Priests.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

How can the entire church RECEIVE the crown of life and be faithful unto death if it hasn't come up against death yet?  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, lets look at Rev. 5:9-10.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Once again, heaven is not made up of the Pre trib church.  REMEMBER BEFORE SATAN IS KICKED OUT THERE IS A WAR RAGING.  WHO DO YOU SUPPOSE IS FIGHTING IN THAT WAR?

There are many many many generations.  How do you figure only the last generation accounts for everything??  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, who are these people in Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals? Well of course it is the Raptured Church, it tells US that in plain speak. They are REDEEMED by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ out of EVERY NATION !! So it is the Raptured Church as seen IN HEAVEN BEFORE any of the Seals have been broken. You guts have zero argument, yet you continue to trudge of, in spite of the facts, I don't get it tbh.

The same assumption again and again and again.  THESE PEOPLE in heaven before the seals are opened are 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



 

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

NO NEED to say I misunderstand or its a parable or any of the rest again

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Heck, you guys can't even prove that 2 Thess. 2 is about THE FAITH because its not, so in that case alone, you have lost just on that one point alone.

Seriously, it is proven just  can't prove it TO YOU.