Is the Mark the same?

[Dennis1209]

On 11/12/2020 at 1:17 AM, Charlie744 said:

There are two important “marks” mentioned in the Scriptures; God placed a mark on Cain and there is a mark of the beast at end times. 

God will make everything come full circle and we might understand what will happen at the end by looking at what happened in the beginning.

Does the mark of Cain tell us about the end time mark? What do these two marks mean or symbolize? Thanks, Charlie 

 

Taking it in context, we can eliminate certain meanings for specific Hebrew and Greek words. Below is a little word study. No need to mention they didn't have words for RFID chips and GPS back then 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Dennis1209

[canada]

The "mark" place upon Cain.

Gen 4:1-2 ... And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord, and she again bare his brother Abel.  There is no mention of Adam "knowing" Eve between the births.

Gen 5:15 ... And the Lord said unto him.  Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.  And the Lord set a mark ('owth) upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

I believe Cain may have been an identical twin of Abel ... the "mark" being that he appeared as Abel.

Here is wisdom.  A=1 ... Z=26

TWIN = 66

IDENTICAL = 77

CAIN AND ABEL = 66

 

 

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Sorry, no it does not. 

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

My setting aside of the pre-trib scenario is due to its lack of harmony with the instructions from Paul to the Thessalonians concerning what he calls "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him," .  They are told not to be unsettled and troubled by speculation that this had already taken place, the reason being because "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,".   

[HAZARD]

speculation noun [C or U] (GUESS) C1 the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain:

[Charlie744]

Question: 

God placed a mark on Cain which told everyone they should not kill him.

Had God NOT placed this mark on Cain, what would make them want to kill Cain?Do you think it may be as simple as everyone became aware that Cain killed Able and they wanted to take revenge? 

Did Cain lose something in His appearance as a result of killing Able?

Is this mark identifying Cain as one who disobeys God and has to be banished from His presence... and therefore equal to the mark in Revelation where those who also have the mark will receive the same fate?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Question: 

God placed a mark on Cain which told everyone they should not kill him.

Had God NOT placed this mark on Cain, what would make them want to kill Cain?Do you think it may be as simple as everyone became aware that Cain killed Able and they wanted to take revenge? 

Did Cain lose something in His appearance as a result of killing Able?

Is this mark identifying Cain as one who disobeys God and has to be banished from His presence... and therefore equal to the mark in Revelation where those who also have the mark will receive the same fate?

 Thank you, Charlie 

This whole episode is about sin and judgment, so there are similarities throughout the Bible. Cain was fearful of retribution from those he would encounter, all of whom were close relatives at that time and probably informed of his evil deed.

Commentators have varied ideas about what Cain's manner and appearance would be under God's Judgment that he be ever a fugitive and vagabond, but such a lifestyle in judgment on oneself would tend to generate a certain shadowy reputation to contend with.

In both Cain and those who take the mark of the beast is an unholy mortal fear of death that the elect People of God do not have and are not bound by. 

[Charlie744]

Question:

There are 3 ways of identification found in Revelation: The name, the number and the mark. Are each of these individually found in the OT?

Thanks, Charlie

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Question:

There are 3 ways of identification found in Revelation: The name, the number and the mark. Are each of these individually found in the OT?

Thanks, Charlie

Hi Charlie.

Are you aware the English words translated mark in Rev 13:16 & 17 etc and graven in Acts 17:29 are from the Greek word charagma, which occurs 9 times in the KJV?

Names and numbers are marks as much as pictures and symbols. Check out tattoos, pottery, gold & silverware, jewellery, artwork etc.  You have all sorts of images and symbols intertwined with numbers, initials & names. As you may know these are known as hallmarks or maker's marks or signatures, thus the name of the beast is also mark of the beast (see note and verse below) .

PLEASE ESPECIALLY NOTE: 

• Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

These associated words from Strong's Concordance are in sequence: (interesting that the root of the word charagma references military siegework) 

Strong G5480
χάραγμα
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.
Total KJV occurrences: 9 

• From Vines Expository Dictionary of the NT
• (a) "a mark" or "stamp," e.g., Rev_13:16, Rev_13:17; Rev_14:9, Rev_14:11; Rev_16:2; Rev_19:20; Rev_20:4; Rev_15:2 in some mss.; (b) "a thing graven," Act_17:29.

Strong G5481
χαρακτήρ
charaktēr
khar-ak-tar'
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving ([“character”], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.
Total KJV occurrences: 1 

• Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image (charakter) of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
   

 Strong G5482
χάραξ
charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.
Total KJV occurrences: 1 

• Luk 19:43-44  For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a trench (charax) about you, and compass you round, and keep you in on every side,  (44)  And shall lay you even with the ground, and your children within you; and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another; because you knew not the time of your visitation.

Any more questions?

[Charlie744]

21 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Charlie.

Are you aware the English words translated mark in Rev 13:16 & 17 etc and graven in Acts 17:29 are from the Greek word charagma, which occurs 9 times in the KJV?

Names and numbers are marks as much as pictures and symbols. Check out tattoos, pottery, gold & silverware, jewellery, artwork etc.  You have all sorts of images and symbols intertwined with numbers, initials & names. As you may know these are known as hallmarks or maker's marks or signatures, thus the name of the beast is also mark of the beast (see note and verse below) .

PLEASE ESPECIALLY NOTE: 

• Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

These associated words from Strong's Concordance are in sequence: (interesting that the root of the word charagma references military siegework) 

Strong G5480
χάραγμα
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.
Total KJV occurrences: 9 

• From Vines Expository Dictionary of the NT
• (a) "a mark" or "stamp," e.g., Rev_13:16, Rev_13:17; Rev_14:9, Rev_14:11; Rev_16:2; Rev_19:20; Rev_20:4; Rev_15:2 in some mss.; (b) "a thing graven," Act_17:29.

Strong G5481
χαρακτήρ
charaktēr
khar-ak-tar'
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving ([“character”], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.
Total KJV occurrences: 1 

• Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image (charakter) of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
   

 Strong G5482
χάραξ
charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.
Total KJV occurrences: 1 

• Luk 19:43-44  For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a trench (charax) about you, and compass you round, and keep you in on every side,  (44)  And shall lay you even with the ground, and your children within you; and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another; because you knew not the time of your visitation.

Any more questions?

Thank you for your response! What I was trying to convey (my failure) was to suggest that perhaps God ensued there were a special / specific event in the OT for each of the 3 identifiers found on Revelation. Example might be Cain for the mark, the beast in Daniel and the little horn in Daniel... or others. 

Each event in the OT might reveal a type of disobedience or sin against God that would reflect the one in Revelation, and may assist us in understanding the identity in Revelation. 

Cain might reflect disobedience to God (murder), while the beast reflects idolatry... etc.

God has always given us information, warnings and examples in advance... Perhaps we should be able to find this in the OT.. Thanks, Charlie

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your response! What I was trying to convey (my failure) was to suggest that perhaps God ensued there were a special / specific event in the OT for each of the 3 identifiers found on Revelation. Example might be Cain for the mark, the beast in Daniel and the little horn in Daniel... or others. 

Each event in the OT might reveal a type of disobedience or sin against God that would reflect the one in Revelation, and may assist us in understanding the identity in Revelation. 

Cain might reflect disobedience to God (murder), while the beast reflects idolatry... etc.

God has always given us information, warnings and examples in advance... Perhaps we should be able to find this in the OT.. Thanks, Charlie

 Revelation & The Old Testament

by	Eric Lyons, M.Min.

Can you imagine what life without the Old Testament would be like for a Christian? Although the commands in the New Testament still could be obeyed without the Old Testament, our knowledge would be incomplete. We would be unable to appreciate fully the passages in the New Testament that speak of men and women such as Adam, Eve, Abraham, and Sarah, as well as events such as the Flood and the Exodus from Egypt. Our understanding of Jesus as the prophesied Messiah and the Great High Priest would be limited in the absence of books like Psalms, Isaiah, and Leviticus. The simple fact is, although we are under the new law today (Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 8:7-13), God still expects us to be educated in the Old Testament Scriptures. The apostle Paul wrote, “Whatever things were written before were written for our learning that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope” (Romans 15:4). One of the main reasons we need to read and study the Old Testament is so we might have a better knowledge of the New. This especially is true when studying one of the most misunderstood books in the world—the book of Revelation.

Of the 404 verses in the book of Revelation, seemingly 278 of them make some allusion to the Old Testament. That is 68.8% of the verses! And some of these verses contain two, or even three, allusions to the Old Testament. The book of Revelation does not tell whence these allusions came. However, by a careful study of the Bible, we can understand that most of them come from the prophetic books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah. Thus, it would be good to have some knowledge of the Old Testament before studying the book of Revelation. For example, before reading the apostle John’s vision of the seven golden lampstands in Revelation 1, a student should realize that such language had been used when Zechariah had a similar vision in chapter 4 of the book that bears his name. Prior to reading John’s vision of a “new heaven” and “new earth” (Revelation 21:1), a person might want to read Isaiah 65 and 66 to understand that such language had been used long before Revelation ever was written.

The reason there are so many allusions to various Old Testament books is because, like Revelation, they were written in a time of oppression and cruel, foreign domination. Whereas Revelation was written while the Christians were oppressed by the Romans, the prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel wrote while the Jews where under Babylonian domination.

There are many similarities between Revelation and the Old Testament. In fact, of the 39 Old Testament books, one writer has found that Revelation alludes to 24 of them. Certainly then, by having a good knowledge of the Old Testament, and especially such books as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah, one likely will have an easier time understanding the book of Revelation.