The Great Tribulation is no purgatory for the church / Foolish virgins scream......(scary stuff)

[Diaste]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:40 AM, R. Hartono said:

Post Tribbers always say that christians must go to the tribulation to be tested with fire, really ? Since two thousand years ago Peter said christians are tried like gold with fire (no need to wait until the great tribulation).

But that doesn't answer this:

On 12/11/2020 at 4:44 AM, Diaste said:

So there will be saints of God in the GT? I have always wondered why that would be. If the Pretrib position is that no saints endure this, which is the wrath of God according to Pretrib, then why do any saints endure this?  How and why does Pretrib cast millions of our brothers and sisters into that which they say we do not endure?

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:28 AM, R. Hartono said:

Imho Rev 12 speaks about Israel only.

In my not so humble "opinion", Rev 12 says exactly:

13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. 

Now I agree the Israel is pictured (the woman who gave birth the the male child Jesus). Notice though that she does not suffer the tribulation (persectecution of the Dragon - Satan) but is instead nourished for 3-1/2 years. Notice also that Jesus in Matt 24, said that after the middle or the 7 years (which equals 3-1/2 years) there would be great tribulation.

So to my thinking, I do not call the 7 years the great tribulation, because Jesus (who coined the term "great tribulation" said that was what would occur in the last half of the 7 years. So far, we see Israel protected in the great tribulation. So, if not Israel, who?

Look at verse 17 above. There the Dragon goes off to make war with someone specific, a certain kind of people, what kind? Obedient one, those who hold to the testimony of Jesus. In modern times, we usually call such people Messianics, or in a more common word "Christians".

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:40 AM, R. Hartono said:

Post Tribbers always say that christians must go to the tribulation to be tested with fire, really ?

I like that part there, where you said "really?"

I also say "really". Do post tribbers always say that? Really? I am a post tribber, and I have never said that. I have diaglogued with lots of posties, and I have never heard any say that. There is a whole long thread heare on defending the post trib rapture.  It has been a long time since I have read that, but I do not recall it being said there either. The Bible does say someting like that though, I will get to in a moment.

You make a valid point though, by pointing out that Christians in all sorts of places, have undergone persecution and martyrdom for the last 2000 years. That always makes me wonder why some modern Christians think that suddenly things will change in the end times, and God will not allow His church to suffer, as He has for the previous 2000 years. Even our Lord suffered, and a servant is not above  his master, the the wisest man who has ever lived has pointed out.

Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. John 15:20

2 Tim 3:12:
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted

1 Pet 4:12
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 

Do we suppose, that there will be those who in the last days who have been obedient to Jesus and kept to His tesitmony would be surprised if a fiery trial comes upon them? I think that is possible, and those people are referred to as pre-tribbers, post-tribbers would not be that surprised. They should not be because they took Jesus seriously when He warned of things to come before His return, His coming, His parousia. 

In 2 Tim 4:3 we read:

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will gather teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear.

Is the pre-trib rapture a doctrine that tickles the ears? I think it is. There are a lot of Christian who love to hear about it, and reject the idea that Christians will suffer, just as they always have and Peter told us we should not be surprised if it happens.

Pre-tribbers and post-tribbers agree that Jesus said that He would return after the great tribulation. (Matt 24)

 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pre-tribbers and post-tribbers agree also, that there is a rapture, a catching up of believers to be with Jesus forever.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17

Where do we disagree? Pre-tribbers think the time between the rapture and Jesus return, is seperated by 7 years or longer. Post-tribber beleive that the time between those events, might be shorter, possible only moments apart.

Does the Bible give us a clue about how much time passes between the rapture and Jesus return? Perhaps so.

Let's look at the 1 Thess passage more completely:

13But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, we see that there are two groups of people who meet the Lord in the are. First, there are the dead in Christ (Christians who have died) then after them those who are alive at His coming, go up to join them and Jesus in the air. Then (which means either at that time in sequence) the living Christians rise to join them. Now, the word "then" implies and at that time understanding, but it could be argued otherwise. If only we knew from some other passage, how the timing of this works out.

Rev 20 is interesting in this regard:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There we see that a group of people, were martyred  for Jesus. That makes them Christians. We see that they did not take the mark of the beast, that places them in the tribulation. These people, the text says take part in the first resurrection. That fits what Paul said:

"The dead in christ shall rise first."

So, the dead in Christ rise first, in Rev 20 John informs us that this is resurrection takes place for Christians who were in the great trib. Now, knowing that living Christians go up to meet the Lord after the great tribulation do the math:

Christians martyred in the great trib
They are raised to life and meet the Lord in the air
Living Christians are raptured to join then . . . 

How does that happen before the tribulation and still agree with the Bible? Easy answer:

Post-tribbers can believe what they believe, because it agrees with scripture without a need to concoct an ear tickling doctrine about a pre-trib, caught by surprise, invisible or secret rapture, nor invent terms like "tribulation saints" and then make them an exception to what the text says.

Bottom line:

No, post tribbers do not always say that people have to go through a trial to be tested. We do say that Christians will go through a trial and be tested (proven) and that this is normal, not something strange or unexpected.

 

[R. Hartono]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:51 AM, Keras said:

Your opinion is wrong. The first 5 verses of Rev 12 do refer to ancient Israel, but the rest of that chapter is clearly about God's Christian people. Proved by verse 17....those who keep God's Commandments and witness to Jesus. 

Imho the church was taken as the great multitude of Rev 7 be4 the great tribulation, how can the dragon fight them ?

The Jews of Rev 12 will be led by Mikhail to run and be nourished in wilderness when the AOD takes place at the 2nd half of GT :

Dan 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

verse 17....those who keep God's Commandments and witness to Jesus : These  are the remnant of the Jews/ Woman who did not join the exodus from Judea and they shall be martyred and their souls will be placed directly under the Altar of the 5th seal together with other non Jews converts who believe the 2 Witnesses of God and refuse to worship the beast in the GT.

 

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Shalom Omega,

Many believe, based on the above verse 29-30 that Jesus will appear after the sun is darkened.

How can people still be eating and drinking and building and planting if the sun is already darkened ?

Luke 17:28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

Unless you have a steel nerve to keep building and planting when the sun is darkened already, third part of trees was burnt up, you keep building and planting, an asteroid hit the earth and kill one third of sea creature and the ships, you keep building and planting........... NO I DONT THINK PEOPLE OF THE WORLD CAN CONTINUE THAT IN THE GT BUT THEY WILL SCRAMBLE FOR THE REMAINING CROP.

So while the sun is still shining before the GT, Lord Jesus appear on the cloud in the same situation like days of Lot where people are busily doing their business in the warm sunshine.

Matt 24:29-30 doesnt explain a sequential event where the sun is darkened first then Jesus appear on the clouds. Because if thats so we just need to look at the sky whether the sun is still shining today, if yes then Jesus wont ever come.

Isaiah 26:20 Go, My people, enter your rooms and SHUT THE DOOR behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until His wrath has passed by 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Matt 25:10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And THE DOOR WAS SHUT.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

There we see that a group of people, were martyred  for Jesus. That makes them Christians. We see that they did not take the mark of the beast, that places them in the tribulation. These people, the text says take part in the first resurrection. That fits what Paul said:

"The dead in christ shall rise first."

So, the dead in Christ rise first, in Rev 20 John informs us that this is resurrection takes place for Christians who were in the great trib. Now, knowing that living Christians go up to meet the Lord after the great tribulation do the math:

 

Not quite right as that will show that God is unfair then, why wud God save Israel from the devil while other christians be martyred for Jesus in the GT ?

^{Rev 12 : 14}  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Christians martyred in the great trib They are raised to life and meet the Lord in the air Living Christians are raptured to join then . . .

Not quite right, those martyred in the great trib will be resurrected after the devil is thrown into the abyss and chained a thousand years at the end of the GT. These are the soul under the altar of the 5th seal (the foolish virgins left behind will be taken to the wrong Bridegroom)

Rev 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Diaste]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:31 AM, R. Hartono said:

The 5th seal martyrs are the foolish virgins left behind n those who believe the 2 Witnesses, these are not the bride of Christ as their souls were under the altar until their number is accomplished in the tribulation while the wedding takes place in Rev 19 be4 Armageddon war.

So believers are in the wrath of God then?

Doesn't pretrib say believers will not endure wrath?

 

[JoeCanada]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

First, there are the dead in Christ (Christians who have died) then after them those who are alive at His coming, go up to join them and Jesus in the air. Then (which means either at that time in sequence) the living Christians rise to join them.

Hi Omegaman,

Curious as to why you have 2 groups of "alive" Christians. 

First....the dead

Then....those who are alive at His coming  (1st group of alive)

Then....the living Christians rise to join them (2nd group of alive)

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"then after them those who are alive at His coming, go up to join them and Jesus in the air"

Also, it says that "we shall together with them be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord"...... not as a separate group

Re:....The souls under the altar..... 

1) There are those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus ( these have to be ALL those down thru the ages who gave their lives as a witness to Jesus.... those beheaded today in the ME, their testimony has to count for something) 

2) And for the Word of God....... this looks like another group (maybe)

3) and such as worshipped not the image of the beast etc........ could this not be a separate group as well?

If these are the ones who are in the first resurrection, who are promised to rule and reign and be priests with Christ....well, isn't that the promise for all Christians? Some who were beheaded...some who died for/with the Word of God....and some who didn't take the mark of the beast?

Or......Is this an exclusive group or are there some in the group who were identified differently?

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by JoeCanada

[missmuffet]

Only the unbelievers will go into the 7 year tribulation. The true born again Christians will be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Only the unbelievers will go into the 7 year tribulation. The true born again Christians will be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

Now, if only the Bible said that!