A Catholic Dilemma ?

[NotAllThere]

I think I'm right that they consider the 66 books we consider canon, as canon. The others are useful for teaching, but aren't of the same value.

They just bind those books in the same volume. 

It's not unlike having a commentary, or even title headings in your Bible. Or chapters and verse. They're not in the original texts. Which are in Greek without punctuation anyway...  depends how extreme you want to be!

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for posting this. 

In this passage we are looking into an event that took place in the Temple in Jerusalem. 

To begin with the events that took place in the Temple were governed by their religious Calendar given to them by their Lord God and their Judge. 

The rituals in the Jerusalem Temple were ruled by the book of Leviticus. 

Which authorizes only sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, individual atonments s and corporate yearly ones, and other according to the book of Leviticus.  

Those sacrifices were only for the living. The Priest were authorized to make atonement only for the one who needed the atonement. 

The sinner will be allowed to enter the holy place which was forbidden to anyone to enter besides the priest, and the sinner was allowed to enter the Holy Place together with the animal for the sacrifice...

The sinner had to kill the animal and the Priest had to take the blood and do the atonement.  

In this passage in Maccabee is referring to a pecific group of people and is telling that they had "died in Godliness ". 

And it was for their forgiveness of their sins...

First when did this event took place? Am I going ahead with this? Did this event actually was carried through?  Did the High Priest in the Jerusalem Temple complied with this request...

And if he did under what protocol...as everything in the Temple was governed by their religious Calendar. 

And Leviticus. 

If this actually happened, did it happen before the Cross when the sanctity of the Temple was guarded by the Law of Moses. 

 

I don't trust 2 Maccabees at all, so I can't comment, except to say that praying for the dead and Purgatory are unscriptural.

[David1701]

49 minutes ago, NotAllThere said:

I think I'm right that they consider the 66 books we consider canon, as canon. The others are useful for teaching, but aren't of the same value.

They just bind those books in the same volume. 

It's not unlike having a commentary, or even title headings in your Bible. Or chapters and verse. They're not in the original texts. Which are in Greek without punctuation anyway...  depends how extreme you want to be!

Roman Catholicism regards the Apocrypha as Scripture.  They don't call it the Apocrypha, but they call the books it contains, deuterocanonical books. Deuterocanonical means "belonging to the second canon"; of course, Christians don't believe in such a "second canon" and stick to the 66 books of the Christian canon.

[Dennis1209]

I'm not implying anything here, and I'm not going to go into much detail but...

Has anyone noticed any similarities or associations with the church of Thyatira in Revelation 2: 18-29, and the harlot one world religious system described later on in Revelation? 

[Sower]

On 12/18/2020 at 2:03 PM, Starise said:

From everything I have read and studied there is much I don't like about the Catholic church , although I'm willing to be educated on deeper matters I just don't have any understanding of.

As a thirty year ex RCC, I could give you a long list anti scriptural 'dogma' within the RCC, and many here have already made several.
For myself, the biggie was never EVER hearing the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
My wife and I several years being married attended a little Baptist church funeral for a our next door neighbor's young son. At the end of the service, like all old baptist preachers, he gave a plan of salvation. This faithful brother said we must be saved.
He said that Jesus said you must be born again. My wife and I had never heard those words. I later went home and found my old unused catholic bible and sure enough, there were the those words.
I couldn't understand why no nun or priest had ever told us about getting saved.
Nor my mom and dad, aunts or uncles etc. (they didn't know either)
That little seed planted by that faithful preacher was watered, studied, and grew, and blossomed, and a child was born. (Two actually:)
It is very easy to google up the unscriptural dogma within the RCC.
To get a better understanding of the church hierarchy, the dark history of how it has evolved into what it is today, I suggest the book;

"Dark History of the Catholic Church: Schisms, Wars, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, Scandals, Corruption"  by Michael Kerrigan

There are others, even on the popes, but it gets weary reading them.
I believe by making their doctrine such that the lay person believes they cannot get into heaven without the RCC, the obligatory sacraments, holy days of obligation, confession to the priest (thus creating overwhelming temptations) dying in mortal sin hanging over your head, or 'extreme unction' (last rites)if you're lucky.
It is the pope, the cardinals and bishops that run/control/teach the priest and flock.
(To say nothing of the unseen realm)
Not the every day unlearned catholic layman.

I love all catholics. I was there once.
They need the truth. To set them free.
Sow the seeds. Preferably In love...

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Sower said:

As a thirty year ex RCC, I could give you a long list anti scriptural 'dogma' within the RCC, and many here have already made several.
For myself, the biggie was never EVER hearing the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
My wife and I several years being married attended a little Baptist church funeral for a our next door neighbor's young son. At the end of the service, like all old baptist preachers, he gave a plan of salvation. This faithful brother said we must be saved.
He said that Jesus said you must be born again. My wife and I had never heard those words. I later went home and found my old unused catholic bible and sure enough, there were the those words.
I couldn't understand why no nun or priest had ever told us about getting saved.
Nor my mom and dad, aunts or uncles etc. (they didn't know either)
That little seed planted by that faithful preacher was watered, studied, and grew, and blossomed, and a child was born. (Two actually:)
It is very easy to google up the unscriptural dogma within the RCC.
To get a better understanding of the church hierarchy, the dark history of how it has evolved into what it is today, I suggest the book;

"Dark History of the Catholic Church: Schisms, Wars, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, Scandals, Corruption"  by Michael Kerrigan

There are others, even on the popes, but it gets weary reading them.
I believe by making their doctrine such that the lay person believes they cannot get into heaven without the RCC, the obligatory sacraments, holy days of obligation, confession to the priest (thus creating overwhelming temptations) dying in mortal sin hanging over your head, or 'extreme unction' (last rites)if you're lucky.
It is the pope, the cardinals and bishops that run/control/teach the priest and flock.
(To say nothing of the unseen realm)
Not the every day unlearned catholic layman.

I love all catholics. I was there once.
They need the truth. To set them free.
Sow the seeds. Preferably In love...

 

presentations of the Stations of the Cross]

However, of these 14 traditional Stations of the Cross, only eight are explicitly mentioned in the gospels. Thus, in 1991, Pope John Paul II introduced a new form of devotions, called the Scriptural Way of the Cross, that are grounded in scripture.

Below are the 14 devotions that comprise the Scriptural Stations of the Cross:

1. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane 

 

³⁶ Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

³⁷ And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

³⁸ Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

³⁹ And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

⁴⁰ And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

⁴¹ Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

(Matthew 26:36-41)

2. Jesus is Betrayed by Judas and Arrested 

(Mark 14: 43-46)

3. Jesus is Condemned by the Sanhedrin

When day came the council of elders of the people met, both chief priests and scribes, and they brought him before their Sanhedrin. They said, "If you are the Messiah, tell us," but he replied to them, "If I tell you, you will not believe, and if I question, you will not respond. But from this time on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God." They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied to them, "You say that I am." Then they said, "What further need have we for testimony? We have heard it from his own mouth." (Luke 22: 66-71)

4. Jesus is Denied by St. Peter

and began to weep bitterly. (Matthew 26: 69-75)

5. Jesus is Judged by Pontius Pilate

The chief priests with the elders and the scribes, that is, the whole Sanhedrin, held a council. They bound Jesus, led him away, and handed him over to Pilate. Pilate questioned him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" He said to him in reply, "You say so." The chief priests accused him of many things. Again Pilate questioned him, "Have you no answer? See how many things they accuse you of." Jesus gave him no further answer, so that Pilate was amazed.... Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Barabbas and handed Jesus over to be crucified. (Mark 15: 1-5, 15)

6. Jesus is Scourged at the Pillar and Crowned with Thorns

Then Pilate took Jesus and had him scourged. And the soldiers wove a crown out of thorns and placed it on his head, and clothed him in a purple cloak, and they came to him and said,"Hail, King of the Jews!" And they struck him repeatedly. (John 19: 1-3)

7. Jesus Bears the Cross

When the chief priests and the guards saw [Jesus] they cried out, "Crucify him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Take him yourselves and crucify him. I find no guilt in him." ... They cried out, "Take him away, take him away! Crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your king?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar." Then he handed him over to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus, and carrying the cross himself he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull, in Hebrew, Golgotha. (John 19: 6, 15-17)

8. Jesus is Helped by Simon the Cyrenian to Carry the Cross

They pressed into service a passer-by, Simon, a Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross. (Mark 15: 21)

9. Jesus Meets the Women of Jerusalem

A large crowd of people followed Jesus, including many women who mourned and lamented him. Jesus turned to them and said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep instead for yourselves and for your children, for indeed, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed.' At that time, people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall upon us!' and to the hills, ‘Cover us!' for if these things are done when the wood is green what will happen when it is dry?" (Luke 23: 27-31)

10. Jesus is Crucified

When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there, one on his right, the other on his left. [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."] (Luke 23: 33-34)

11. Jesus Promises His Kingdom to the Good Thief

Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23: 39-43)

12. Jesus Speaks to His Mother and the Beloved Disciple

Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (John 19: 25-27)

13. Jesus Dies on the Cross

It was now about noon and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon because of an eclipse of the sun. Then the veil of the temple was torn down the middle. Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"; and when he had said this he breathed his last. (Luke 23: 44-46)

14. Jesus is Placed in the Tomb

When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph, who was himself a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus; then Pilate ordered it to be handed over. Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it [in] clean linen and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed. (Matthew 27: 57-60)

*

Place of Christ's resurrectionEdit

Some modern liturgists[24] say the traditional Stations of the Cross are incomplete without a final scene depicting the empty tomb and the resurrection of Jesus because Jesus' rising from the dead was an integral part of his salvific work on Earth. Advocates of the traditional form of the Stations ending with the body of Jesus being placed in the tomb say the Stations are intended as a meditation on the atoning death of Jesus, and not as a complete picture of his life, death, and resurrection. Another point of contention, at least between some ranking liturgists and traditionalists, is (the use of) the "New Way of the Cross" being recited exclusively in the Philippines and by Filipinos abroad.

The Stations of the Resurrection (also known by the Latin name of Via Lucis, Way of Light) are used in some churches at Eastertide to meditate on the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

The Stations of the Resurrection complement the Stations of the Cross or Via Crucis (the term Via Lucis is intentionally reminiscent of this), a traditional Catholic devotion commemorating the Passion of Jesus. Unlike the traditional form of the Stations of the Cross—though in common with the revised form of that devotion introduced by Pope John Paul II on Good Friday 1991—all the Stations of the Resurrection are based on scripturally-recorded incidents contained in the four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles.

As with the Stations of the Cross, the devotion takes no fixed form, but typically includes for each Station a reading from Scripture, a short,and a prayer, Where a series of pictures is used to aid the devotion, it takes the form of a procession with movement from one Station to the next sometimes being accompanied by the singing of one or more verses of a hymn.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

6 hours ago, Sower said:

As a thirty year ex RCC, I could give you a long list anti scriptural 'dogma' within the RCC, and many here have already made several.
For myself, the biggie was never EVER hearing the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
My wife and I several years being married attended a little Baptist church funeral for a our next door neighbor's young son. At the end of the service, like all old baptist preachers, he gave a plan of salvation. This faithful brother said we must be saved.
He said that Jesus said you must be born again. My wife and I had never heard those words. I later went home and found my old unused catholic bible and sure enough, there were the those words.
I couldn't understand why no nun or priest had ever told us about getting saved.
Nor my mom and dad, aunts or uncles etc. (they didn't know either)
That little seed planted by that faithful preacher was watered, studied, and grew, and blossomed, and a child was born. (Two actually:)
It is very easy to google up the unscriptural dogma within the RCC.
To get a better understanding of the church hierarchy, the dark history of how it has evolved into what it is today, I suggest the book;

"Dark History of the Catholic Church: Schisms, Wars, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, Scandals, Corruption"  by Michael Kerrigan

There are others, even on the popes, but it gets weary reading them.
I believe by making their doctrine such that the lay person believes they cannot get into heaven without the RCC, the obligatory sacraments, holy days of obligation, confession to the priest (thus creating overwhelming temptations) dying in mortal sin hanging over your head, or 'extreme unction' (last rites)if you're lucky.
It is the pope, the cardinals and bishops that run/control/teach the priest and flock.
(To say nothing of the unseen realm)
Not the every day unlearned catholic layman.

I love all catholics. I was there once.
They need the truth. To set them free.
Sow the seeds. Preferably In love...

I especially liked you comments at the very end. Yes absolutely we should love them all. I appreciate you giving me your vantage point. 

I regrettably made some bad decisions in the past when approaching one Catholic in particular. It was a friend of my wife's. I was still partially thinking inside of a legalistic box at the time and even though I was right and she wasn't, my approach to convincing her went over like a lead balloon. I didn't argue. Let's just say my presentation was too up front. Was probably not done either the right time or the right way. It wasn't theological debate time it was a group of friends. I learned my lesson since then. I know several Catholics and sometimes I'll plant a "seed" but I never try to push. It never works.

More recently I was on my job with a contact I had worked with before who I needed again to access some properties only he had access to. I didn't know this young man very well. The last time I met him he was very talkative and jovial, so I was expecting the same kind of meeting this time. In contrast, the young man looked troubled and informed me it was his last day at that job. I asked him where he was was going after that. He told me he was going to become a Catholic priest and was going to attend some training for it. This really caught me off guard. I wished him well which was about the only thing I could think of to say at the time. Not long after I wondered if I should call and warn him. If I had known him better maybe I would have, but due to my last experiences with Catholics I decided against it. I just prayed for him and I HOPE he changed his mind. 

While many good points have been made here I was hoping that maybe there would be some text I was unaware of or other way besides simple faith in the leaders that keep many Catholics bound into Catholicism or maybe even an argument I could live with as a concrete answer. There appears to be none besides blind trust in corrupt leaders and lack of further personal study. Maybe most importantly, they don't know anything about the Lord's salvation which is sad when you think some of them have been in church for decades.

I've read a bunch of the Catholic books already that point to all kinds of dirty little secrets in the Catholic church. Many of them coming from people who lived inside of it for a long time. Not just recently but pretty much ever since it started. Entire populations are being mislead  i.e. South America and Northern Ireland. If this is any indication the fake church shouldn't have much trouble becoming the great whore or part of it. Yes they have plenty of money because they don't get it all from contributions. The Vatican is a cartel.

I find it amazing that so many people are so gullible.

One parting comment about Baptist churches. I probably come off as against them since I was in one and seen through a bunch of their legalistic teaching. Not all Baptist churches are the same. Like all denominations they sometimes tack something on that doesn't fit or arrive at a conclusion that isn't necessarily aligned with scripture, mostly when it comes to how they think members should dress and how often they should attend church to be "spiritual", they are dispensationalists and pretribbers. They also present the gospel of salvation and encourage people to make a decision. In that, I have nothing but praise for them. One could do a whole lot worse than attend a good Baptist church. 

[Sower]

6 hours ago, Starise said:

He told me he was going to become a Catholic priest and was going to attend some training for it. This really caught me off guard.

PBS Frontline, "The Vatican"

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/secrets-of-the-vatican/

The video is about an hour and a half. A documentary. What goes on when men are training for the priesthood. Shocking. Was aired on PBS TV several years back.
A clincher if anyone has any doubts about RCC hierarchy behind doors.

Catholics are not allowed to believe they are saved according to church dogma.
That would be the sin of presumption. Against God, sin.

The Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1183. What is presumption?

A. Presumption is a rash expectation of salvation without making proper use of the necessary means to obtain it.

Q. 1184. How may we be guilty of presumption?

    1. By putting off confession when in a state of mortal sin;
   2. By delaying the amendment of our lives and repentance for past sins;
   3. By being indifferent about the number of times we yield to any temptation after we have once yielded and broken our resolution to resist it;
   4. By thinking we can avoid sin without avoiding its near occasion;
   5. By relying too much on ourselves and neglecting to follow the advice of our confessor in regard to the sins we confess.

"The priest (man) decides their fate..."

[David1701]

19 minutes ago, Sower said:

PBS Frontline, "The Vatican"

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/secrets-of-the-vatican/

The video is about an hour and a half. A documentary. What goes on when men are training for the priesthood. Shocking. Was aired on PBS TV several years back.
A clincher if anyone has any doubts about RCC hierarchy behind doors.

Catholics are not allowed to believe they are saved according to church dogma.
That would be the sin of presumption. Against God, sin.

The Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1183. What is presumption?

A. Presumption is a rash expectation of salvation without making proper use of the necessary means to obtain it.

Q. 1184. How may we be guilty of presumption?

    1. By putting off confession when in a state of mortal sin;
   2. By delaying the amendment of our lives and repentance for past sins;
   3. By being indifferent about the number of times we yield to any temptation after we have once yielded and broken our resolution to resist it;
   4. By thinking we can avoid sin without avoiding its near occasion;
   5. By relying too much on ourselves and neglecting to follow the advice of our confessor in regard to the sins we confess.

"The priest (man) decides their fate..."

When I clicked on the video link, the Web site said that the video was unavailable.