The beginning of sorrows

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, luigi said:

While it is true that wars, pestilences, famines, are nothing new and were even around when Jesus mentioned these occurrences set to occur when the generation who witnessed all these events would also see the Lords return;...we then have to look to other scriptures in order to verify if what is occurring today correlates with the events in the Olivet discourse.

This is true. For a long time I heard we were in it. I was 16 when I first heard this way back in the 70's. Every 7 year period would come and go with no return of Jesus. Once I really started looking into the end of the age and the last days in the scriptures the story began to come into focus and look a bit different.

In the Olivet Discourse the disciples ask about the end of the age. This is the answer Jesus give them. Not an answer about the last times but the end of the age, the signs of His coming and when will these things be. 

As you pointed out Matt 24:4-8 correlates with the end of the age and Jesus coming, and the ones who would witness these things, all these things, from the 'take heed no one deceive you' to the gathering of the elect.

So whatever is the fulfillment of the Matt 24:4-8 at least must occur within the scope of the end of age which from other sources we know is a limited period of time; either 7 years or 3.5 years. 

I don't know if you are aware or not but about every 10 years sine the 40's some dire man made calamity was set to befall mankind changing life as we know it or eradicating the population. 

 

19 hours ago, luigi said:

What is new today is that environmental scientists are echoing these same occurrences now to occur due to industrialized pollution. In Revelation 9:20 the Lord attributes the plagues in Revelation 8 and 9 due to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce. In Revelation 8, one third of earth's environmental resources are destroyed because of the love mankind has for the things his hands produce.

I understand what you are getting at but it's a push isn't it? It's not every work of the hand of man, is it? I hope it isn't a general thing. I produce things with my hands that help our economy, keep people working, put food on the tables for me and many others, keep homes heated and the lights on. Something that can be said for millions of working people. I don't think that's something that needs to be repented of, even if we swell with a bit of pride in the finished product.

It look likes Rev 9:20 is focused on "They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

19 hours ago, luigi said:

 

Fires increase throughout the world. Eutrophication of the world's oceans increases red tides killing greater quantities of marine life. Fracking operations pollute more underground aquifers and rivers making the more fresh water resources poisonous. And greater levels of industrial pollution blanket more of the world's skies, increasingly dimming the light from our celestial bodies. These things did not happen in the past, but are happening now, and are the cause for increasing levels of pestilences, famines, and wars.

I'm sure this has merit but I can't personally verify any of it. I have read some things, heard things, listened, and still haven't made up my mind about the level of truth in all of that. Those things happen, it's true. On a scale to cause geo-genocide? I have my doubts. 

I have further doubts about those things being the cause of our demise because I'm convinced God will get honor and glory for the actual event and it will have nothing to do with mankind. God our Father will show His power and majesty in both the destruction of the earth and the rebels and be glorified, just as as He is glorified though our love of Him and our repentance though faith.

But a word or two about what the scripture says in Matt 24:4-8

" 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these [are] the beginning of sorrows."

The bold above is the Greek 'kata topos'. This in a literal sense is 'down from above place'. Kata also carries the idea of frequency but the main idea is 'from above to below'.  Most everyone just says this is 'different places' but that's not capturing the whole concept of 'kata'. You'd have to ask yourself what 'different places' means. Different from the earth? Like Mars or Jupiter?  Every place on earth is 'different' from every other place on earth so that makes it all familiar.  

So the idea of 'different' doesn't fit the word 'kata' unless we understand 'different places' to mean 'above places'. That would be different.

It's all coming from above, the realm of the supernatural, the power is of above, and it's going to be frequent, day to day, and daily. They aren't mere happenstance. It's a directed effort with wide scope and unrelenting urgency.

I'm also convinced Matt 24 is the outline for the chronology of Revelation in a broad sense. I see the parallels. It appear to me the beginning of sorrows is the time at the end immediately preceding the A of D, or the first half of the week. Which means Matt 24:4-8 is condensed into 3.5 years.

 

 

[luigi]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The BIRTH PANGS deliver the baby, this these Sorrows should deliver the 70th week, thus they CAN NOT BE the 70th week. Matthew 24:4-6 is all about the 70 AD Sacking of Jerusalem. Matt. 24:7-14 is all about the Church Age. Matt. 24:15-31 is all about the coming 70th week tribulation. Thus we get THREE SPECIFIC MENTIONS of False Prophets for a reason. 

The Pharisees in verse 5 fulfilled John 5:43 by putting forth Messianic figures to SAVE THEM from the Roman Fourth Beast, to no avail. In verse 9 the Disciples were warned they would be killed and in verse 11 they were warned about false prophets, thus these people serving false gods no doubt killed Peter, Paul, etc. etc. because they would not bow down unto their false gods, that is why in verse 13 Jesus warns them, ye must ENDURE until the end. (Its not about the 70th week end times). 

Finally in verse 24 we see THE False Prophet and THE Anti-Christ.

Hi Revelation Man, I see you are one who believes the events in the Olivet discourse separated by two millennia. I can only say that the beginning of sorrows in which wars, pestilences/pandemics, and famines occur cannot be the 70 AD event, as the sacking of Jerusalem was a singular event and cannot represent the plurality of wars, pestilences/pandemics and famines. And as the generation who are to see all the events described in the Olivet discourse shall not perish before the end comes, upon which the Lord returns; all the events in Olivet discourse would then all occur within the lifespan of an average individual.

[luigi]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is true. For a long time I heard we were in it. I was 16 when I first heard this way back in the 70's. Every 7 year period would come and go with no return of Jesus. Once I really started looking into the end of the age and the last days in the scriptures the story began to come into focus and look a bit different.

In the Olivet Discourse the disciples ask about the end of the age. This is the answer Jesus give them. Not an answer about the last times but the end of the age, the signs of His coming and when will these things be. 

As you pointed out Matt 24:4-8 correlates with the end of the age and Jesus coming, and the ones who would witness these things, all these things, from the 'take heed no one deceive you' to the gathering of the elect.

So whatever is the fulfillment of the Matt 24:4-8 at least must occur within the scope of the end of age which from other sources we know is a limited period of time; either 7 years or 3.5 years. 

I don't know if you are aware or not but about every 10 years sine the 40's some dire man made calamity was set to befall mankind changing life as we know it or eradicating the population. 

 

I understand what you are getting at but it's a push isn't it? It's not every work of the hand of man, is it? I hope it isn't a general thing. I produce things with my hands that help our economy, keep people working, put food on the tables for me and many others, keep homes heated and the lights on. Something that can be said for millions of working people. I don't think that's something that needs to be repented of, even if we swell with a bit of pride in the finished product.

It look likes Rev 9:20 is focused on "They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

I'm sure this has merit but I can't personally verify any of it. I have read some things, heard things, listened, and still haven't made up my mind about the level of truth in all of that. Those things happen, it's true. On a scale to cause geo-genocide? I have my doubts. 

I have further doubts about those things being the cause of our demise because I'm convinced God will get honor and glory for the actual event and it will have nothing to do with mankind. God our Father will show His power and majesty in both the destruction of the earth and the rebels and be glorified, just as as He is glorified though our love of Him and our repentance though faith.

But a word or two about what the scripture says in Matt 24:4-8

" 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these [are] the beginning of sorrows."

The bold above is the Greek 'kata topos'. This in a literal sense is 'down from above place'. Kata also carries the idea of frequency but the main idea is 'from above to below'.  Most everyone just says this is 'different places' but that's not capturing the whole concept of 'kata'. You'd have to ask yourself what 'different places' means. Different from the earth? Like Mars or Jupiter?  Every place on earth is 'different' from every other place on earth so that makes it all familiar.  

So the idea of 'different' doesn't fit the word 'kata' unless we understand 'different places' to mean 'above places'. That would be different.

It's all coming from above, the realm of the supernatural, the power is of above, and it's going to be frequent, day to day, and daily. They aren't mere happenstance. It's a directed effort with wide scope and unrelenting urgency.

I'm also convinced Matt 24 is the outline for the chronology of Revelation in a broad sense. I see the parallels. It appear to me the beginning of sorrows is the time at the end immediately preceding the A of D, or the first half of the week. Which means Matt 24:4-8 is condensed into 3.5 years.

 

 

Hi again Diaste, I see we do agree on much, while on other things you are still on the fence about. I understand this perspective, as I also have many of the things we produce through industry today, and have therefore been hesitant in claiming it all bad.

I do, however, see that what environmental scientists have been declaring for years, has now increased in severity to the point with what they are now saying seems to more and more correlate with what is described, not only in the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation, but also with other scriptures in the bible, one of which is Isaiah 24, where everyone on the earth is experiencing dire circumstances due to environmental destruction.

All I can say at this point is to do what the Lord tells everyone to do in the Olivet discourse, which is to watch for these signs, so that we will not be caught unawares, as these terrible days will come upon the whole world.

[Still Alive]

I figure the earth can sustain roughly 60 billion people. The good news (to humanists, anyway) is that in most cultures, the invention of the pill has now caused populations to shrink - except in third world countries. And that creates a problem. All of the world's 1st world economies depend on constant growth. When your population is not growing, you need to augment it with "refugees" from third world countries. The clash of cultures creates serious problems, as Europe is finding out. 

And then this "weak sister" virus has everyone in a twitter. The future does not look good. I believe that in 2021 we will pine for the salad days of 2020.  More than ever I believe we are living in the world suggested in Matthew 24:36-39. And one reason is that the world has simply gone mad at breakneck speed. And yes, the election hijinx going on right now in US politics is a facet. 

We destroyed our economy early last year and continued hacking at it right up to today, with no end in sight. It is like an airliner at 35,000 feet over the pacific that dumped its fuel last April. It's been gliding down toward the ocean ever since. Many passengers are unaware of the situation. It will hit the water this year. 

 

2020. Salad days.

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I think you are underestimating the world's population capacity... not today's world (60 billion may be reasonable), but in the future millennial reign of Christ. 

Our earth has about 200 million square miles of land.   Currently there are more than 130 cities in the US alone with a population density greater than 10,000 per square mile.   Keep that in mind. 

A country/ city/area that grows at 2.5%, double its population in about 28 years.   That is a typical growth rate.   If you were to add in the death rate of approx 70-80 years, you arrive at the birth rate.   In our example,  that would be about 3.75%.   Let's look at what theorists might predict for the millennial reign of Christ. 

Scripture says that a child die,  being a hundred years old.   This could be illustrated by Adam's age when Seth was born,  130 years.   I believe the "river of life", that proceeded from the abode of God in the garden of Eden,  will be the fountains of life that will flow out of Jerusalem, that will be restored prior to the Millennium.  This will be part of why,  life expectancies will be greatly increased during the Millennium.   Let's say that life expectancy,  at this time,  will be a mere 500 years (it will probably be even greater).  That is a death rate of 0.2% (1/500).  If the birth rate were reduced to a mere 3.0%, with a death rate of 0.2%, we end up with a growth rate of 2.8%.  This would mean that, over the course of 1000 years,  the population would be a trillion times what it started out as.  If the Millennium began with only 2 reproductive viable people [let's call them,  Adam2 & Eve2], this would result in 2 trillion people at the end of the millennium...a trillion fold increase.   How many viable people will enter the Millennium?  I have no idea.   But you see the potential results of what only 2 would do.    10,000 people/ square. Mi. (Psm) would equal 2 trillion people.   NYC has a population of >50,000 psm.  You see the potential of the millennial utopia? Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Hey Pup,

When you put it like that....WOW!

That's 2,000 billion people. That's a lot of people. Can you imagine the traffic... :)....or the line ups at??? the grocery store, the movie theatre, the gas station..... just kidding

[grahampaul]

32 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey Pup,

When you put it like that....WOW!

That's 2,000 billion people. That's a lot of people. Can you imagine the traffic... :)....or the line ups at??? the grocery store, the movie theatre, the gas station..... just kidding

Head for the stars !!!

[Riverwalker]

15 minutes ago, grahampaul said:

Head for the stars !!!

At the current speed of our space ships, the closet star  being  4.24 light years away it would take approximately  160,000 years  to get there....pack a lunch

Edited January 17, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, luigi said:

Hi Revelation Man, I see you are one who believes the events in the Olivet discourse separated by two millennia. I can only say that the beginning of sorrows in which wars, pestilences/pandemics, and famines occur cannot be the 70 AD event, as the sacking of Jerusalem was a singular event and cannot represent the plurality of wars, pestilences/pandemics and famines. And as the generation who are to see all the events described in the Olivet discourse shall not perish before the end comes, upon which the Lord returns; all the events in Olivet discourse would then all occur within the lifespan of an average individual.

You total miss the THREE QUESTIONS and thus the THREE ANSWERS, Reread it again. Jesus starts out telling the Disciples about what at the beginning of the chapter? The Temples DESTRUCTION, thus the TELL US WHEN THESE THINGS WILL BE? Means tell us when the Temple will be Destroyed !! Do you not get that? SEE BELOW:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (THE TEMPLE)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE clearly means When will the Temple be DESTROYED !! Then they say.......AND.....what will be the sign of your coming.....AND......of the end of the world (ANOTHER SIGN for this). Thus Jesus explains all three questions, and the very first one is WHEN WILL THESE THNGS BE !! Or when will the Temple be DESTROYED that you were just speaking about. Thus Jesus starts off with the Temples DESTRUCTION with his very first answer in verses 4-6.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Or as another Gospel says is BY and BY). 

Jesus tells HIS DISCIPLES, do not let anyone deceive you, for many will come (the Pharisees put forth Political Messiahs) in my name, saying they are the Messiah, they will fool many, and YOU (Disciples) will hear of Wars (70 AD Rome defeats Israel) and Rumors of Wars (they will whisper THIS IS IT !! The Zechariah 14 Messianic victory we have been promised, the Daniel 7 and 8 VICTORY we have been  PROMISED) but don't be TROUBLED (don't believe these lies)because the END (My Return via Zechariah 14:3-4) will not come until MUCH LATER...........By and by, meaning THE END IS NOT YET !! 

Verses 4-6 are about the 70 AD crushing of Jerusalem. They were SACKED by Rome and the Temple was destroyed, Jesus thus answered their FIRST QUESTION, which was in regards to him saying the Temple will be destroyed. 

THEN, we get the SIGN of his coming (Lightening comes out of the east) at the Second Coming AND the End of the world as know to mankind. We are even given the Rapture in verses 36-51. 

So, NO ONE SAID it was the 70 AD event per se, I stated what Jesus states, these are the BIGGINING of the Birth Pangs. and they thus run all the way until the Rapture, after the Gospel is taken unto all the world, THEN THE END COMES.........See the Correlation? To be honest, the holy Spirit just locked this in even further for me. 

Jesus in verse 6 says the END IS NOT YET (is By and By) because it looks like the Zechariah 14:1-2 event Jesus feels he has to warn them, and then says AFTER the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the world, THEN THE END (70th week/Zechariah 14:1-2) WILL COME !! 

He is  specifically telling the Disciples its not the END................then this is THE END (when the Gospel is taken unto all the world. Thus, when our mission on earth is complete, the 70th week begins, AFTER the Rapture of course. 

The 70 AD Event had RUMORS of Wars BEFORE the 70 AD event. That is Jesus' point there, it didn't just happen, there were skirmishes here skirmishes there, the whole reason the Romans wound up sacking Jerusalem so violently was, they would not give in to the Roman rule. The Romans didn't like destroying cities completely, they would rather they just fall in line. 

Verse 7 starts the Church Age Worldwide Age of 2000 some odd years. Verse 14 ENDS the Church Age.

Only those living during the 70th week would see ALL THESE EVENTS, not those in verses 4-6 or those in verses 7-14, but those in verses 15-31. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

As you pointed out Matt 24:4-8 correlates with the end of the age and Jesus coming, and the ones who would witness these things, all these things, from the 'take heed no one deceive you' to the gathering of the elect.

Evening there!

Just want to make a brief comment that sticks out like a sore thumb, pertaining to the end of the age. Deception: A rule in Bible study that is called, "the law of first mention." That's what Jesus mentions first and several other times. It is top of the list and extra weight and attention is to be applied.

What is deceiving and deception? Masking, hindering, altering and hiding "truth." It sure seems odd, all of a sudden in our history, mainstream media is publishing and promoting fake news [lies - deception]. Monitoring, suspending, demonetizing, closing social media accounts that oppose their political, ideology and socialist agenda; all conservative, Second Amendment, conservative Christian and gun related sites only. I can't stomach bringing up the liberal, socialist life long politicians.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Evening there!

Just want to make a brief comment that sticks out like a sore thumb, pertaining to the end of the age. Deception: A rule in Bible study that is called, "the law of first mention." That's what Jesus mentions first and several other times. It is top of the list and extra weight and attention is to be applied.

What is deceiving and deception? Masking, hindering, altering and hiding "truth." It sure seems odd, all of a sudden in our history, mainstream media is publishing and promoting fake news [lies - deception]. Monitoring, suspending, demonetizing, closing social media accounts that oppose their political, ideology and socialist agenda; all conservative, Second Amendment, conservative Christian and gun related sites only. I can't stomach bringing up the liberal, socialist life long politicians.

Yes, deception is everywhere. I can barely watch any news show anymore. There used to be journalists who reported honestly but now it's all actors reading from a script. 

And what do you think is the petri dish of this deception? I think it's the people. The lies and deception grow and thrive in them. And they have 15 second attention spans. It seems you can tell many people one thing in the morning, they believe that, then tell them something else in the evening and now they believe that. 

It wasn't that long ago we heard leftist politician calling for violent protests and looking the other way when city blocks burned in liberal cites, even lauding BLM and Antifa. On Jan 6 what happened appalled them. And guess where those lies took root, growing into a forest of deception? The people.

I don't think we are in the 'age of deception' as Jesus talked about; but we have been conditioned to the point where we will accept anything as long as we see on MSM. We are ready for it.