Daniel 2, 7 and 8 - Identifying the 3 actors

[Charlie744]

As everyone knows, Daniel provides us with interesting and changing symbols in these 3 chapters for the 4 kingdoms that will take place before the second coming. He uses a metal image in 2, and animals in both 7 and 8. There are progressions to be interpreted not only from the north to south (kingdoms), but also from east to west. So Daniel is providing us with 3 characteristics or features for each kingdom (east to west), and also 3 different means of conquering or changes to the next kingdom (north to south). This certainly provides or offers a lot of information for us to unpack and interpret.

Specifically, it is the 4th kingdom that has everyone's attention and especially the 3 actors that are mentioned / identified, and like the 4th kingdom itself, these 3 actors are quite unusual and mysterious and extremely difficult to identify. And as a direct result, many or perhaps most have placed these 3 actors some 2,000 years after the crucifixion.

So the purpose of this post is to try and identify these 3 actors and the period(s) they may be found.

1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level).  But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books.

So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 

 

2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future.  Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast".  And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses.

So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse).
 

3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. 

So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.?  I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD.
 

This means, if correct, that ALL 3 actors arrived or were on scene either at the time of the crucifixion or soon after (500 AD), AND most importantly, all 3 must and will continue until the second coming.

 

Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!!

You MUST look for them as though you around say 600 AD........ There you have the entire Tanakh at your disposal, you have the NT (but can not access Revelation UNTIL these 3 actors are identified), AND you have an understanding of the ACTUAL historical events up to 600 AD.

NO CHEATING ALOUD - IGNORE REVELATION AS A POSSIBLE SOURCE OR EXPLANATION TO INTERPRET DANIEL.

I hope there is some interest in this topic and will / can accept the manner it is presented.... there is a reason for everything. We can take each actor one at a time or not..... thank you, Charlie

 

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

As everyone knows, Daniel provides us with interesting and changing symbols in these 3 chapters for the 4 kingdoms that will take place before the second coming. He uses a metal image in 2, and animals in both 7 and 8. There are progressions to be interpreted not only from the north to south (kingdoms), but also from east to west. So Daniel is providing us with 3 characteristics or features for each kingdom (east to west), and also 3 different means of conquering or changes to the next kingdom (north to south). This certainly provides or offers a lot of information for us to unpack and interpret.

Specifically, it is the 4th kingdom that has everyone's attention and especially the 3 actors that are mentioned / identified, and like the 4th kingdom itself, these 3 actors are quite unusual and mysterious and extremely difficult to identify. And as a direct result, many or perhaps most have placed these 3 actors some 2,000 years after the crucifixion.

So the purpose of this post is to try and identify these 3 actors and the period(s) they may be found.

1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level).  But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books.

So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 

 

2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future.  Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast".  And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses.

So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse).
 

3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. 

So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.?  I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD.
 

This means, if correct, that ALL 3 actors arrived or were on scene either at the time of the crucifixion or soon after (500 AD), AND most importantly, all 3 must and will continue until the second coming.

 

Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!!

You MUST look for them as though you around say 600 AD........ There you have the entire Tanakh at your disposal, you have the NT (but can not access Revelation UNTIL these 3 actors are identified), AND you have an understanding of the ACTUAL historical events up to 600 AD.

NO CHEATING ALOUD - IGNORE REVELATION AS A POSSIBLE SOURCE OR EXPLANATION TO INTERPRET DANIEL.

I hope there is some interest in this topic and will / can accept the manner it is presented.... there is a reason for everything. We can take each actor one at a time or not..... thank you, Charlie

 

 

1) No.

2) I think they can be identified. I'll write about it later. 

3) No.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

1) No.

2) I think they can be identified. I'll write about it later. 

3) No.

Thanks for responding and I hope you can / will offer your thoughts... (and please, no Revelation as proof or source), but looking at this as if you lived around 600 AD. 

Also, and I forgot to mention it in the original post... I believe just about most folks identified the little horn as the papacy PRIOR to the counter reformation efforts around 1500 AD by the Jesuits.... 

Thanks, Charlie 

[Diaste]

45 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for responding and I hope you can / will offer your thoughts... (and please, no Revelation as proof or source), but looking at this as if you lived around 600 AD. 

Also, and I forgot to mention it in the original post... I believe just about most folks identified the little horn as the papacy PRIOR to the counter reformation efforts around 1500 AD by the Jesuits.... 

Thanks, Charlie 

I won't use Revelation as proof but there is alignment. 

If anything symbolizes the papacy, pope or catholicism it would be the whore of Babylon, imo. I won't be equating RCC or Rome with the little horn.

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I won't use Revelation as proof but there is alignment. 

If anything symbolizes the papacy, pope or catholicism it would be the whore of Babylon, imo. I won't be equating RCC or Rome with the little horn.

 

Thanks and I am looking forward to your response! Charlie 

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I also see your attempt to exclude revelation from understanding Daniel as a mistake.. For Rev 17 says that the KINGDOM of the 10 horns gives their kingdom unto the beast.   The "beast " is not the 10 horns.   The 10 horns are but a subset of the beast.   And together they destroy and burn the great whore, which is a great city.   Unless you can see that this is the destruction of Jerusalem,  you are already on the wrong track.   Besides that,  the papacy didn't exist in 70 AD when it was destroyed then.   It is not readily apparent in Daniel 2, but we see where the 10 horns are a subset of the beast,  being part of the great image.   The beast IS conglomerate "one world" kingdom portrayed by the whole of the great image...all 4 kingdoms!   After all,  Daniel said, 

"In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up the everlasting kingdom".   You can only have two choices here when this can happen.   In the days of the first advent,  or in the days of the 2nd advent.   Like I said,  in 70 AD or sometime in the future.   This has to be your starting point. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Thank you PuP... I am glad you are interested in responding!

 As mentioned, I do not want to bring in Revelation since we will “bend” our attempt to identify these actors in Daniel to meet their verses.  

Yes, there can not be any contradictions between the two but we must exclude Revelation. 

Having said that, agree there are 3 separate actors— so the beast can not be the 10 horns but to try and construct some constraints here ....

Do you agree the 10 horns come out of the beast and is the beast begin as “pagan Rome”?  

Doesn’t pagan Rome come right after Greece as the 4th kingdom?

If so, then we have one actor identified (pagan Rome) AND it’s timing- around 200 BC?

Do you agree with this? Thank you Charlie 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

No.   The 10 horns gives their kingdom to the beast.   The beast and 10 horn kingdom are initially mutually exclusive to each other.   With the voluntary inclusion of the 10 horns,  the 10 toes of Daniel 2, the complete form of the beast is manifest in the great image.   Daniel 2 is NOT about the "rising" of the 4 kingdoms,  per say.   Yes,  they must rise,  and then,  in the last days,  they will all unite together,  only to be destroyed when Christ sets up the kingdom at the 7th Trumpet.   The beast is not simply the 10 horns.   It becomes complete with the addition of the 7th head,  the 10 horns of the 4th kingdom.   The 7 heads are readily identified in Daniel 7.

#1.  The lion with eagles wings. 

#2. The bear with 3 ribs. 

#3 - #6.  The leopard with 4 heads. 

#7.  The divided kingdom of Rome,  at the 1st and 2nd advent.

The 8th head emerges after the beast and 10 horns makes war against the Lamb.  It has no crowns signifies that it has no God given authority to rule.  This is because "all people,  tongue and nations shall serve him", 

Dan 2:44 KJV And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Thanks again PuP, but I believe you keep bringing Revelation into this ... (and as mentioned, everyone does this and this prevents us from identifying these 3 actors outside of Daniel). 

I agree with your understanding of Daniel 2:44 when Jesus will destroy the image and conquer all kingdoms.

But let’s get back to the 4th kingdom- doesn’t pagan Rome follow the Greek kingdom? 

If not, who comes RIGHT AFTER Greece?

Secondly, the 10 horns arises out from the “beast”. So isn’t this beast the 4th kingdom? 

I DO recognize how difficult it is to try and ignore Revelation here... I was able to do it because I was unfamiliar with both Daniel AND Revelation — when I trying to understand Daniel and asked questions, EVERYONE responded to verses in Revelation (only), which did not make sense to me (became a type of circular reasoning), and MY interpretations of some difficult verses in Daniel could not be reconciled with their responses from Revelation... 

So if we can keep Revelation out of this particular exercise we might be able to identify these 3 actors within Daniel.

 Thank you again Charlie 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Da Puppers said:

Dan 2:32-35 KJV ³² This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, ³³ His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. ³⁴ Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. ³⁵ Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, BROKEN TO PIECES TOGETHER, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Thank you but I am not sure what question this addresses... Charlie 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

It pre- confirms what Rev 17 says.   The clay is only part of the 10 toes, aka the 10 horns of Daniel 7.  They are in existence when the KOG is set up, at the time of the 2nd advent.   They are broken to pieces,   TOGETHER,  i.e., at the same time, as a unit when stone kingdom of Christ breaks the IMAGE into pieces. 

Be Blessed  

The PuP 

Ok and thanks but no more Revelation please... ?, Charlie 

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As everyone knows, Daniel provides us with interesting and changing symbols in these 3 chapters for the 4 kingdoms that will take place before the second coming. He uses a metal image in 2, and animals in both 7 and 8. There are progressions to be interpreted not only from the north to south (kingdoms), but also from east to west. So Daniel is providing us with 3 characteristics or features for each kingdom (east to west), and also 3 different means of conquering or changes to the next kingdom (north to south). This certainly provides or offers a lot of information for us to unpack and interpret.

Specifically, it is the 4th kingdom that has everyone's attention and especially the 3 actors that are mentioned / identified, and like the 4th kingdom itself, these 3 actors are quite unusual and mysterious and extremely difficult to identify. And as a direct result, many or perhaps most have placed these 3 actors some 2,000 years after the crucifixion.

So the purpose of this post is to try and identify these 3 actors and the period(s) they may be found.

1) Does everyone agree the 4th kingdom in Daniel (all 3 chapters) begins after the Greek empire as pagan Rome? And if so, can we also agree this kingdom REMAINS until the second coming? (certainly not as pagan or even papal Rome but it will morph into many diverse powers and appearances but because the symbol is a "beast" where there is no animal on earth to compare it to, it seems to have all the characteristics and more than the other 3 previous kingdoms combined! And I believe this is purposeful - it represents a composite of all mankind and its coming and even changing powers with an emphasis that it operates or comes to operate (regardless of borders) under the evils of man (even though we will never eliminate the "legal country borders", that is not important. The important take away is that all men, regardless of country and boundaries will act in an identical manner - greed, power, murder, all truly worldly ways. We always interpret Daniel and especially Revelation from man's viewpoint (a 6 foot level or a worldly or physical level).  But I believe as we progress from Daniel 1 to 12, we should begin to interpret Daniel in a much more spiritual manner than trying to identify people and events that may seem to match those in our history books.

So, is this 4th kingdom or the "beast" pagan Rome (beginning)? 

 

2) Daniel 2's metal image shows the 4th kingdom coming after the belly / thighs of the Greek kingdom has having 2 strong iron legs and feet of iron and clay. It ends with 10 toes also of iron and clay. I think it is safe to say that most folks agree these 10 toes morph or are the same as the 10 horns that come out of the "beast" mentioned above (pagan Rome if y0u are in agreement). So this means (to me) they are / maybe in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the legs and feet! But because this 10 toes or horns are / have been impossible to identify as an entity or group some 2,000 years ago, we have thrown this actor into our still future.  Since we can not find 10 powers or kingdoms in our history books, it does make sense to interpret their arrival later on but they still will come out of this "beast".  And here we are 2,000 years later trying to determine what 10 powers or nations will make up these 10 horns.......Unfortunately, and as mentioned above, we continue to look at these verses in Daniel at a 6 foot level; trying to see a physical group or power that will come together. All our attention is focused on the future and not the past. As the symbols in Daniel for the 4th kingdom move both east to west and north to south, don't we begin to see the verses becoming less physical and worldly and more spiritual for us to interpret? The reason we have to throw these actors into the future is not because they belong there (better term is arise or reveal themselves then), but because we have tried to match these actors to our history books and failed to find them.... this is NOT because they did not arise or were there some 2.000 years ago, but we did not see that God was now telling us to see them as He sees them - not a physical power or kingdom (s), but how they relate to HIS kingdom and Plan of Salvation of man. He has already conquered evil, death and could have easily just made a thought and destroyed Rome or any enemy of the Jews.... but in these later chapters of Daniel (4th kingdom), He is speaking about"spiritual" powers and warfare - we still are looking for more physical powers and wars to match to these later verses.

So, who or what are these 10 toes or horns that arise / come out of the 4th beast? They certainly MUST be present at the end times but when is their arrival or beginning? And here is a major issue (I believe), because they are so difficult to identify we look to Revelation to try and identify them way back in Daniel. I believe this is a significant error... yes they MUST NOT contradict each other, but Daniel teaches us Revelation and not the reverse (cart before the horse).
 

3) the final actor being the "little horn". Many believe they have properly identified the little horn as papal Rome or more specifically the Papacy (for me there is no doubt he is the little horn - whether you label it as the Catholic Church, the entire organization, the papacy, etc., but the little horn who has eyes like a man....... is the papacy). So if this is acceptable, and we understand they came to power after pagan Rome around 400 to 500 AD (in other words slowly but surely), that would indicate the 10 horns mentioned above must have "been on the scene" PRIOR to the little horn since they disposed of 3 of the horns rather quickly. Most have placed the little horn still into the future along with the beast and the 1o horns with the little horn destroying 3 of the 10 kingdoms that did not go along with the practices or thinking of the little horn - once again, a completely physical or worldly interpretation at a 6 foot level. 

So, is this little horn the papacy or papal Rome and continues until this day and meets all the criteria found in Daniel - corrupts the Word of God, contends they are God on earth, can forgive sins, change HIS times and laws. etc.?  I believe he is the little horn and therefore places the 10 horns or toes before 500 AD.
 

This means, if correct, that ALL 3 actors arrived or were on scene either at the time of the crucifixion or soon after (500 AD), AND most importantly, all 3 must and will continue until the second coming.

 

Finally, there is ONE constraint here - you can NOT look to ANY verse in Revelation for the answers to the identity of these 3 actors!!!!!!!!!!

You MUST look for them as though you around say 600 AD........ There you have the entire Tanakh at your disposal, you have the NT (but can not access Revelation UNTIL these 3 actors are identified), AND you have an understanding of the ACTUAL historical events up to 600 AD.

NO CHEATING ALOUD - IGNORE REVELATION AS A POSSIBLE SOURCE OR EXPLANATION TO INTERPRET DANIEL.

I hope there is some interest in this topic and will / can accept the manner it is presented.... there is a reason for everything. We can take each actor one at a time or not..... thank you, Charlie

 

 

I'll spare you all my lengthily notes on your inquiry. But offer you a couple of thoughts for your consideration. If you hold the view as I do, that the colossus of Nebuchadnezzar head of gold is Babylon. The chest and arms of silver being Medo-Persia; the loins brass or copper being Greece; the two legs of iron being Rome; and the two feet of iron (miry clay) mixed with iron, representing Rome II. With the associated metal value and worth from the head of gold, through silver, down to worthless dirt. And the hardness and malleability of those metals, with associate animal symbology and fierceness. One has to ask their self, what doesn't mix and is partially strong and partially week?

If ones hermeneutic is the feet and toes are the revival of the old Roman empire, Rome II; the dark glass seems to be clearing up. A little history to support an idea, and I'm just saying... To make a long story short and omit Alexander's four generals and much of history. The eastern leg of the Roman empire outlasted the western leg by about 1,000 years. It developed into the Islamic Ottoman empire, that didn't end until WW I. 

Lay a Roman map of what geographic area they conquered and controlled at their zenith; over a modern map, and one discovers two-thirds of that area are now Muslim nations. The rest of it [Europe] is being flooded with millions of Muslims that have fled and migrated to Europe. For all practical purposes, Europe is about to become Muslim. 

In that area, what could be described as "partially strong and partially weak, and fierce." What about the tens of millions of Muslim's, the Shia and Sunni constantly fighting between themselves and killing each other. In Revelation it talks about death being from beheading. What's Islam's favorite form of execution? 

Well, just thought I'd drop a couple things to ponder about...