Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Peterlag]

44 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Say something that proves your claim that Jesus Christ was resurrected. 

Or someone else can say something to support your claim. That Jesus was resurrected. 

Are you asking me to prove that which is spiritual by using what is of the flesh?

[Arrabon]

Of coarse water immersion baptism doesn't save anyone even though the bible says we are to be water immersed in baptism for salvation.

I was water immersed in baptism, but I had already believed because God had called me to after touching my heart with conviction to be forgiven Acts 2:38. If your heart hasn't been touched, and you haven't honestly BELIEVED, then all your doing is getting wet.

All of Christianity is about who we are in our heart with God, and if your heart isn't right, then your just a noisy gong.

True Christianity isn't about "legalism" or  "rule keeping", but it is about the freedom of love in Christ.

My name is Arrabon

Edited March 11, 2021 by Arrabon

[Starise]

47 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

True Christianity isn't about "legalism" or  "rule keeping", but it is about the freedom of love in Christ.

It shouldn't be necessary, but I feel the definition of "legalism" itself is often misconstrued. I am feeling here that maybe baptism is seen as "legalistic" and therefore something to avoid ? 

I would say baptism CAN be legalistic if done for the wrong reasons.

For that matter, prayer can even be legalistic. It's not and either/or.

To say baptism done properly is a legalistic exercise is not true.

[Arrabon]

6 minutes ago, Starise said:

It shouldn't be necessary, but I feel the definition of "legalism" itself is often misconstrued. I am feeling here that maybe baptism is seen as "legalistic" and therefore something to avoid ? 

I would say baptism CAN be legalistic if done for the wrong reasons.

For that matter, prayer can even be legalistic. It's not and either/or.

To say baptism done properly is a legalistic exercise is not true.

Quote["To say baptism done properly is a legalistic exercise is not true.] Quote
Your absolutely right  on this statement of yours directly above.

To me and what I've seen and heard in most Christian circles is very legalistic, much like rule keeping, and binding on a person to fit in and do what others expect without allowing the freedom in Christ we were given at the time of our conversion.

The SO-CALLED Christian culture of today is becoming more and more demanding that all believe what they, the leaders, say is the true way, and way less acceptable of anyone's freedom to believe in Christ as the bible teaches, and as individuals choose.

[Charlie744]

47 minutes ago, Starise said:

It shouldn't be necessary, but I feel the definition of "legalism" itself is often misconstrued. I am feeling here that maybe baptism is seen as "legalistic" and therefore something to avoid ? 

I would say baptism CAN be legalistic if done for the wrong reasons.

For that matter, prayer can even be legalistic. It's not and either/or.

To say baptism done properly is a legalistic exercise is not true.

You are so right.... there are more than a few Christian denominations that require or demand one must be baptized in water, whether it is sprinkled,fully immersed or maybe there are some that would accept being spit on (just kidding here). Now that is legalism since many of these churches contend you will not get to heaven unless you are baptized in water --- this of course is WORKS.

However, there is no question we must be baptized by the Holy Spirit...  period. The baptism in water preceded Pentecost and, to me, was just another "type" pointing to Pentecost.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Arrabon]

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

you will not get to heaven unless you are baptized in water --- this of course is WORKS.

@Charlie744 Charli Charlie my brother

I think you've been talking to the wrong folks.

Water immersion baptism is NEVER a work or a ritual, as some call it.

Water immersion baptism is a believers first beautiful act of obediance and surrender to Gods calling on their heart by conviction.

It's not just an event, but is the joyous beginning of his or her journey that can lead to eternal life with the KING OF KINGS - OH HAPPY DAY, WHEN JESUS WASHED, HE WASHED MY SINS AWAY - OH HAPPY DAY (An old-time gospel song).

https://youtu.be/a37bBm8pXSk

It's like the first day of kindergarten when we were all excited to start school and someday become a "BIG KID", maybe like an older brother or sister we looked up to.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Arrabon

[Starise]

45 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

To me and what I've seen and heard in most Christian circles is very legalistic, much like rule keeping, and binding on a person to fit in and do what others expect without allowing the freedom in Christ we were given at the time of our conversion.

The SO-CALLED Christian culture of today is becoming more and more demanding that all believe what they, the leaders, say is the true way, and way less acceptable of anyone's freedom to believe in Christ as the bible teaches, and as individuals choose.

Sorry Abbaron that I have not read previous of your experiences as to what those "Christian circles" were....and maybe you haven't said. I probably have my biases and untrue stereotypes of the North West that are most assuredly not correct. The sorts of  churches that are around there and what they teach.

Some churches do all the right things in the wrong way. IOW you can't necessarily point to any false doctrines, but the church is run by a bunch of hard headed louts. The fruits of the spirit are not apparent.

Who doesn't like  freedom?  Out here in the NE US some churches are going the other way with an almost "anything goes" attitude. Freedom, personal choices and truth are all tightly bound for the Christian IMHO. We can still have freedom and choices while doing what is properly taught and learned, although the struggle with the flesh sometimes causes conflicts. I think some people rebel against overly legalistic upbringings too. I was sort of that way early on, I swung more free and then came back around to what I felt was a biblical centered, yet free position.

I think the Lord actually kept me from a few of those kinds of legalistic churches I tried to attend. It's a longer story, I believe His hand was in my prayers to find a good church in my area. I would pray for wisdom and direction.

35 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

You are so right.... there are more than a few Christian denominations that require or demand one must be baptized in water, whether it is sprinkled,fully immersed or maybe there are some that would accept being spit on (just kidding here). Now that is legalism since many of these churches contend you will not get to heaven unless you are baptized in water --- this of course is WORKS.

However, there is no question we must be baptized by the Holy Spirit...  period. The baptism in water preceded Pentecost and, to me, was just another "type" pointing to Pentecost.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

Hello Charlie, good to see you're still here!

I agree some churches use baptism as a control tool. I think the key is in finding the right group of believers. As you can see, beliefs and teaching on baptism are all over the map. On the positive side I think God will lead you to His will if you seek it.

Best to you.

 

[Charlie744]

18 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

@Charlie744 Charli Charlie my brother

I think you've been talking to the wrong folks.

Water immersion baptism is NEVER a work or a ritual, as some call it.

Water immersion baptism is a believers first beautiful act of obediance and surrender to Gods calling on their heart by conviction.

It's not just an event, but is the joyous beginning of his or her journey that can lead to eternal life with the KING OF KINGS - OH HAPPY DAY, WHEN JESUS WASHED, HE WASHED MY SINS AWAY - OH HAPPY DAY (An old-time gospel song).

https://youtu.be/a37bBm8pXSk

It's like the first day of kindergarten when we were all excited to start school and someday become a "BIG KID", maybe like an older brother or sister we looked up to.

Well, I am NOT very excited about disagreeing with you.... but....

To me, water baptism (the big "WB" and not to be confused with Warner Bros.), is a type of cleansing necessary under the Torah... Cleansing (outward ritual), lamb sacrifice (outward ritual), and all the other outward rituals and practices were required for removal of their sins at the Passover Festival.  

I believe they ALL were to point to the coming Messiah, who would be the perfect sacrifice in the Cross and He would send the perfect cleansing or baptism at Pentecost. These are / were all types and shadows of the One (Messiah and Holy Spirit) to come. 

John the Baptizer himself told us," but there is One to come who will baptize you in the SPIRIT".... in other words, water baptism would no longer be necessary or important but the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be everything.

If you believe a WB is still necessary and is proof of one's obedience to God, then we should still continue with the sacrifices of the lambs, and all the other ceremonies that CERTAINLY DID show one's obedience to God.

Please also note that I am not saying IN ANY WAY one should refuse to be baptized in water IF THEY BELIEVE IT WILL REPRESENTS TO THEM A NEW BEGINNING LIFE WITH JESUS.... but that act itself does not show obedience to God... it is a "man's" ceremony that has been continued by many churches as an outward symbol or sign to OTHER FOLKS of your commitment to God... God already knows if you have received and accepted His Holy Spirit into your life....

Now, the most important response to you that will confirm my point .... I did not attend kindergarten.... apparently, they did not like that I took the hose, turned on the water and started to spray (I say baptised....tomato / tomoto) all the kids in the class.... since then, I don't believe in water baptism... that's my story and I am sticking to it... 

Best wishes, Charlie

[Arrabon]

20 minutes ago, Starise said:

I would pray for wisdom and direction.

Oh, believe me I have many times, as I am pretty much an old "DIASAUR" of my faith, and am incredibly happy and full of JOY at where HE has brought me in my faith.

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, Starise said:

Sorry Abbaron that I have not read previous of your experiences as to what those "Christian circles" were....and maybe you haven't said. I probably have my biases and untrue stereotypes of the North West that are most assuredly not correct. The sorts of  churches that are around there and what they teach.

Some churches do all the right things in the wrong way. IOW you can't necessarily point to any false doctrines, but the church is run by a bunch of hard headed louts. The fruits of the spirit are not apparent.

Who doesn't like  freedom?  Out here in the NE US some churches are going the other way with an almost "anything goes" attitude. Freedom, personal choices and truth are all tightly bound for the Christian IMHO. We can still have freedom and choices while doing what is properly taught and learned, although the struggle with the flesh sometimes causes conflicts. I think some people rebel against overly legalistic upbringings too. I was sort of that way early on, I swung more free and then came back around to what I felt was a biblical centered, yet free position.

I think the Lord actually kept me from a few of those kinds of legalistic churches I tried to attend. It's a longer story, I believe His hand was in my prayers to find a good church in my area. I would pray for wisdom and direction.

Hello Charlie, good to see you're still here!

I agree some churches use baptism as a control tool. I think the key is in finding the right group of believers. As you can see, beliefs and teaching on baptism are all over the map. On the positive side I think God will lead you to His will if you seek it.

Best to you.

 

Wait a minute.... where did I go?  I don't remember leaving .... are you talking "spiritually or literally?  You have me worried now....    Best wishes, Charlie