Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Arrabon said:

The opinions here are pretty diversified. I have a pretty clear idea of how this works for me, so let me share my thought to all of you in love and kindness, hoping I will receive the same in return.

Throughout the bible the topic of "ONE" is a pretty large subject, but has to do with the idea of "NON-OTHERS. Something singular!

In Ephesians 4:4-6, scripture says, (4) "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling: (5) One Lord, one faith, ONE  BAPTISM, (6) one God and Father of all.

In John 14:6, " Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the Life. No one (Different context meaning) comes to the Father but through ME- Jesus is the ONLY ONE.

"Heis" is the koine Greek word for ONE, and means to the exclusion of all others - NON-OTHER.

CONTRADICTIONS AND CONFUSION ABOUT BAPTISM.

Is Cor. 14:33 says, "For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace ("eirenes") or  unity, harmony, and absence of confusion (In this context).

No matter what anyone tells you, there are no contradictions or confusing statements made by God in the bible.

Only confusion by man from not studying out thoroughly enough what God meant.

We have being discussed, 2 baptisms. Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and water immersion baptism.

Only ONE is effective for salvation, and both are in unity and harmony with not only each other, but the rest of scripture - NO CONTRADICTIONS!!!

So, we have to make them work in our own minds TOGETHER, without twisting anything to get a meaning that is to JUSTIFY anyone's opinion.

And remember, you can't have one baptism being followed by another, because God says one baptism. ONLY ONE!!

Can anyone do that using just scripture??

I hate to say this about such a wonderful post. I think some of it is an oversimplification. Makes it sound as if getting to the bottom of it should be easy peasy. While I agree with all of it wholeheartedly, often people have to work through these things for themselves. Sometimes it's like saying, sure you can get across Everest you just have to climb it.

Depending on a person's background or what they have been taught people often have to "back out" of things they  thought they were sure of. This is often more difficult than being shown with no knowledge at all.

I think you explained it well here, yet you say Baptism is a requirement of salvation? Correct?

To say there are no contradictions is the easy part. To explain or understand why there are no contradictions is something else. I had to work through this on some other theological subject matter. In essence we sometimes need to "untrain"ourselves to see the truth.

[Peterlag]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok I am back and apparently, there HAS indeed been some discussion while I was away.....didn't think I would notice huh?  Ok, one mulligan only,

Thank you for your response but I really do not believe there is any mention of water in the verses you provided .... I believe that would be an interpretation... Now, I do not know if this will answer you and satisfy your interpretation, but it is MY thought that Jesus was quite convincing and clear and insistent when He told His disciples to stay in Jerusalem for another 10 days or so because He would send them HIS Holy Spirit --- this is such a critical event in our history.... NOT stay and wait for a water baptism...... I believe the water baptism is no different than the High Priest, the Temple. the animal sacrifices..... all these ceremonies including the water baptism is a "type and shadow" of a more perfect sacrifice, High Priest, Baptism, etc.   Just my thoughts, Charlie

I think we agree Charlie744.

Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law.

There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.”

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.

[Peterlag]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Please show me the scripture that says Christ's resurrection nullifies Baptism? Yes Christ died and was raised again the 3rd day and I think this is what baptism is SYMBOLIC of for us as believers. The death of the old man, the burial of our physical bodies and our resurrection to new life. 

Jesus didn't tell His disciples to only baptize until He was raised from the dead. Do you think He would have missed that little detail? Just sayin'

Charlie it seems you either were RC or have been influenced by them and have a bad taste in you mouth understandably so. I think if in the RCC environment it is probably more difficult to see the difference between  mans ordinances and actual church ordinances. The RCC has many. 

There really have only been two church ordinances passed down through the ages. The Lord's table and Baptism. Both have been corrupted by various false teaching over time. A few churches still practice those two according to the Bible. The RCC really gets the Lord's table wrong as to what it actually means. Baptism has been all misconstrued as well in adding infant baptism. This isn't only the RCC but other churches as well. Maybe the Episcopalians who some refer to as lazy Catholics  .

So I'm attempting (maybe unsuccessfully) to get you to see the difference between the real ordinances and the fake ones, and that some ordinances have been corrupted. You can find scriptural support for both Baptism and the Lord's table in the Bible.

Even though some scriptures seem to tie baptism into becoming a real believer with said scriptures posted by others all above, I see it as a step of obedience to God.

If God convicts you that you should seek someone to baptize you, then I would do it. It's an act of obedience according to scripture. If God IS NOT convicting you to do it, then don't. God wants Christians who WANT to follow what He says. Only you can determine if you think God wants you to be baptized. I knew it right away and I was baptized, though I will admit I had it done twice because I questioned my sincerity the 1st time.

I'll put forth the same ideas on baptism as I have put forth to "you can loose your salvation"people that they simply can't get around, and the funny thing is people who are staunch adherents to Baptism to be saved will often be against the other ideas.

"If" a person made a confession of faith and was saved, then scheduled their baptism a week out. This person then dies before they can be baptized the next week. What happens to them then?

Same can be said for a person who is a "good person" yet they sin a little bit. They are preparing to confess but they die before that happens. Are they lost?

Both of these things depend on the person. God does not depend on anything but your willingness to be saved. MOST Christians will have an interest in baptism after their salvation. It's one of the very first steps of obedience.

We will fall from the understanding of the grace that is in Christ, and succumb to the doctrines and theories that are dictated by human conception if we seek justification by our own works. The concision was from those who taught circumcision was necessary for salvation. Circumcision is a work of the flesh required by the Old Testament Law, and by the way so is water baptism, which is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law.

There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.”

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm tired of water baptism CULTS.

Good grief.

Bible lovers are now a cult. Sign of the times.

[Starise]

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

We will fall from the understanding of the grace that is in Christ, and succumb to the doctrines and theories that are dictated by human conception if we seek justification by our own works.

Agreed, however Baptism is not a theory it is an established new testament church ordinance according to the Bible. Baptism is NOT a human conception. It is NOT a doctrine of works. Baptism is simply a symbolic act of obedience.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

Circumcision is a work of the flesh required by the Old Testament Law, and by the way so is water baptism, which is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law.

These are two separate things and should be seen as such. Circumcision was NOT a New Testament teaching.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.

Once again this is an unfair and illogical comparison. To say we no longer do A or B because we don't do A doesn't disqualify B. Not to mention there isn't a direct correlation to OT cleansing as it was seen in the NT. Two different things here that you are attempting to merge that frankly don't fit.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Not true. It had to do with our freedom from sin through the blood of Christ. So no, it isn't clear in this way.Sorry. Please show me the scripture where John was under any covenant at all.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.

You have no proof of this. No proof at all.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.”

Where do these references directly say there is " no more need for it"???? They don't.

29 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.

So the millions who have been baptized since then, up until now, I might add, you've conveniently forgotten?

Edited February 3, 2021 by Starise

[Waggles]

30 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established.

How wrong can a man be?

[Arrabon]

50 minutes ago, Starise said:

I hate to say this about such a wonderful post. I think some of it is an oversimplification. Makes it sound as if getting to the bottom of it should be easy peasy. While I agree with all of it wholeheartedly, often people have to work through these things for themselves. Sometimes it's like saying, sure you can get across Everest you just have to climb it.

Depending on a person's background or what they have been taught people often have to "back out" of things they  thought they were sure of. This is often more difficult than being shown with no knowledge at all.

I think you explained it well here, yet you say Baptism is a requirement of salvation? Correct?

To say there are no contradictions is the easy part. To explain or understand why there are no contradictions is something else. I had to work through this on some other theological subject matter. In essence we sometimes need to "untrain"ourselves to see the truth.

@Starise

Your totally right about it being an over simplification. 

To me it had to be written like that, or people could have gotten lost in the length and the details. 
I don't even like to read long posts at times as, there is too much information for me to process. I get lost in it, so I post in a way that I'd like to see things posted.

And your right about un-training one's self. Over the decades, I've had to do that several times and it isn't that easy.

 

God bless all here

My name is Arrabon

[Waggles]

Romans 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 
10  For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 
11  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 

This ought to happen in the waters of baptism 

Note that this is Romans 10 which follows chapter six on water baptism and chapter eight on Holy Spirit baptism 

Confessing with the mouth one's belief and new faith in the gospel of salvation. 

1John 2:23  No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 
24  Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 

[Starise]

2 minutes ago, Arrabon said:

@Starise

Your totally right about it being an over simplification. 

To me it had to be written like that, or people could have gotten lost in the length and the details. 
I don't even like to read long posts at times as, there is too much information for me to process. I get lost in it, so I post in a way that I'd like to see things posted.

And your right about un-training one's self. Over the decades, I've had to do that several times and it isn't that easy.

 

God bless all here

My name is Arrabon

God Bless you too Arrabon. I was thinking/typing out loud and I probably should have just let it go.

I don't like processing too much inf either if it's all haphazard and rambling. Even if the info is structured we still have to take time to process all of it...so yes, same here.

I apologize. I probably should not have posted what I did. I get too nitty sometimes.

[Starise]

3 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Romans 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 
10  For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 
11  For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 

This ought to happen in the waters of baptism 

Note that this is Romans 10 which follows chapter six on water baptism and chapter eight on Holy Spirit baptism 

Confessing with the mouth one's belief and new faith in the gospel of salvation. 

Not trying to be funny here Waggles, but from what I'm reading you are saying this is a "present tense" kind of thing that all happens at once.

So if I'm lost and decide to get saved, there had better be a sink, bathtub or swimming pool nearby? Quick Elma...we gotta get wet!!!!!!

What I THINK I hear you saying is they should work together. SHOULD isn't always ideal. The main thing is we accept Christ correct?