Are Fossils evidence of evolution ....or are the evidence of fossils

[Guest kingdombrat]

On 3/30/2021 at 1:22 PM, one.opinion said:

There are a couple of point of obvious figurative language in the Genesis account. Genesis 2:18-20 (NKJ) reads - "And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him."

I think we can all agree that God did not truly have Adam consider all of the animals as a suitable helper before finally deciding a female human just might work out better.

Misleading, we could say, but clearly God would not send his creation to Adam for Adam to be thinking of a [Help Mate].   The Verse [obviously] indicates Adam recognized male/female of all Species but did not see his own Species among the others.   I do not believe the intent of this Verse is to think God would send other Species for Adam to choose a [Mate], when we know God was strict about His own Angels not procreating with human women, or to not be [Unequally Yoked] among mankind itself.

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Genesis 3 gives us the story of the Fall. The language of the "serpent" is either not translated correctly, or must also be figurative. If the original text truly did mean serpent, one possibility would entail God creating another group of organisms with not only the ability to distinguish right from wrong, but somehow be in a sinful state before sin and intentionally deceiving Adam and Eve. The other possibility is figurative language of Satan as the serpent. In any case, a strictly literal interpretation is problematic for multiple reasons.

The Verse I will copy/paste after my point is my main focus here.

 

What I find interesting here, is the [word] more cunning.   Let's take someone having a pet snake like a Boa.   The brain size is less than peanut split in half.   It does not recognize its owner, it smells its owner that feeds it and holds it and presents no harm to it.   But the entire time, if hungry or provoked, will not hesitate to turn against the owner.   It's not driven by thought, it is driven by survival inherited traits and instincts.

 

So here we now have a presentation where the serpent, as skilled of a hunter it is, patient, 100% natural instinctive, is speaking to another Species with the Language of the other Species.   [Red Flag] Immediately!   Now, we are left with several questions before/after continuing to read.

1) The Serpent is speaking to a human

2) The human clearly understands what the Serpent is saying

3) The Serpent clearly is [Challenging] God

4) The Serpent is very skilled in the art of Deception

5) The human is clearly Deceived

6)WHO is this Serpent?

 

When we put the right question with probabilities, suddenly this Verse makes perfect sense.  We no longer see it [Figuratively], but from the "Intention" of God's viewpoint!

 

1Now the serpent was cunning, more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"

אוְהַנָּחָשׁ֙ הָיָ֣ה עָר֔וּם מִכֹּל֙ חַיַּ֣ת הַשָּׂדֶ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשָׂ֖ה יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֑ים וַיֹּ֨אמֶר֙ אֶל־הָ֣אִשָּׁ֔ה אַ֚ף כִּֽי־אָמַ֣ר אֱלֹהִ֔ים לֹ֣א תֹֽאכְל֔וּ מִכֹּ֖ל עֵ֥ץ הַגָּֽן:

 

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Not quite as obvious, but I believe another good example of figurative language is the timeline of creation listed in Genesis 1. Evening and morning (if taken literally) must exist prior to the creation of the sun. Any ad hoc explanation requires some time of extra-biblical interpretation because there just isn't any description of how that might possibly work.

I did begin with, "how much time is from the Moment God caused the Beginning, to when God stopped being the Light and Created Light for both day and evening?

 

We Immediately see the Spirit of God above Earth being the Light to a Earth that is void and dark.   How long of a period is that From when God said, I want to do this, it begins, and now we're at this point of THE WORD hovering over darkness and the voided Earth?

 

Now, once we have Sun/Moon established, we have sunrise/sunset examples.   We know, or believe we know, by day 6 and Adam was created, the Cycle appears to be a normal 24 hour period.   Since other life was created before Adam and would survive with Adam, we can assume much of that was also on a 24 hour Cycle.  But Before sun/moon is created, and maybe until life forms are created that require the same Cycle as Adam, those areas can definitely be placed on the table for debate.   

The one that gets me is from when God chooses this [Plan], and something happens because it is suddenly darkness [so it's a separate Realm not connected to Heaven because Heaven will never be dark] and how long in the darkness till we see God and Earth before "Let there be Light," is how long?   Because it's clear Earth exists and God is hovering over it.   How long was Earth in its darkness before God hovers over it and begins working with it could be an interesting discovery, in my opinion.

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So, there are figurative elements already in prominent positions of Genesis 1, 2, and 3. How do we know where to clearly mark the line of "ok, this part is figurative, but this other part must be literal". Honestly, we can't. Instead, we need to take the whole picture of creation and consider the important theological points that are being made.

Context is quite easy to understand.   If we step out of context, it's lack of understanding or trying to see something not there.

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1. God is Creator of all things.

2. God created humanity special and with the ability to communicate with Him.

3. Humans opted to make their own choices rather than to obey God's instructions, thereby ushering sin and its effects into the world.

4. God foretold of a way that He would allow humans to come back to relationship with Him.

This is a precursor to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so the theology here in these points is foundational. However, the literal vs figurative interpretations of the particulars, while they should be carefully studied and considered, are of relatively minor importance in comparison to the 4 major theological points.

And once again, we fall back to Context!

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In the tradition of Francis Bacon, I believe in the "two books" of God - the Book of Scripture and the Book of His creative works. I recognize that both of these Books must be true, so over the course of decades (and a PhD education in Biology), I have come to the conclusion that the timeline is also figurative, and highlights God's creative power in all realms. The original audience of this account consisted of a people immersed in a civilization rampant with idolatry and it was important from the beginning to establish God as Creator of all, so that is where the focus should be.

I am all for [timeline] because first and foremost, the Bible is the oldest and truest Genealogy of a Specific Factual People who knew the One True God among all peoples on Earth.   This is their story about their life and what God did for them.   So a timeline factually exists.   We should want to know more about it.

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I do not question the power of God to create all things in a week, in a day, or instantly. However, I do not believe a 144 hour creation week is consistent with the evidence that God has made available to us. I believe God used a beautifully intricate and complex system to bring about His creation over hundreds of millions of years in order to bring humans to the planet. Instantaneous Creation speaks of God's power, but Creation over eons speaks of His power, patience, surpassing knowledge, and beautiful attention to detail. I have a much greater respect for His creation now than I ever did as a child that was raised as a Young Earth Creationist.

I enjoy the Beautiful Idealism behind Intelligent Design.   And there is no mystery here that Adaption and Evolving do happen within all life forms.   But I am opposed that man evolved from another Species that itself evolved from other Species.   I am not opposed to Evolution of microorganism/bacteria,  but I am opposed to that single cell became human!

Edited April 1, 2021 by kingdombrat

[one.opinion]

5 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I am not opposed to Evolution of microorganism/bacteria,  but I am opposed that single cell became human!

I have no problem with your opposition. I even understand it. It contradicts your understanding of Genesis 1-3. In that case, you can and should attempt to defend it.

On the other hand, I do not believe the imago Dei is physical, but spiritual. I believe what most truly sets us apart from God's other living creations is on a different realm of reality, so I don't see a reason to object to the creation of humans through the very long, gradual process of evolution.

I am not concerned about changing anyone's mind about evolution. I am concerned about the people of God making bad arguments against evolution because it reflects poorly. I am also concerned about the tendency for individuals to cry heresy when another Christian has a different opinion regarding a very secondary issue that really isn't even part of standard theology.

But if you are determined to think "I know what this all looks like, but I believe this is what the Bible says and means, so I'm sticking with it", then I can respect that difference of opinion.

[The Barbarian]

4 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

What I find interesting here, is the [word] more cunning.   Let's take someone having a pet snake like a Boa.   The brain size is less than peanut split in half.   It does not recognize its owner, it smells its owner that feeds it and holds it and presents no harm to it.   But the entire time, if hungry or provoked, will not hesitate to turn against the owner.   It's not driven by thought, it is driven by survival inherited traits and instincts.

The inclusion of the snake would be consistent with the culture of the ancient Near East, which used the serpent as a symbol of wisdom, immortality, and health.

14 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I enjoy the Beautiful Idealism behind Intelligent Design.   And there is no mystery here that Adaption and Evolving do happen within all life forms.   But I am opposed that man evolved from another Species that itself evolved from other Species.   I am not opposed to Evolution of microorganism/bacteria,  but I am opposed that single cell became human!

That happens to all of us.   We all start as a single cell.  No evolution required.    Nor does evolutionary theory claim that a single cell ever evolved into a human.   So errors both ways.

 

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, one.opinion said:

How are you defining naturalist? The term can be defined as a student of natural history. How is this inconsistent with following Christ?

In the context of this topic. 

[Guest kingdombrat]

7 hours ago, one.opinion said:

I have no problem with your opposition. I even understand it. It contradicts your understanding of Genesis 1-3. In that case, you can and should attempt to defend it.

On the other hand, I do not believe the imago Dei is physical, but spiritual. I believe what most truly sets us apart from God's other living creations is on a different realm of reality, so I don't see a reason to object to the creation of humans through the very long, gradual process of evolution.

I am not concerned about changing anyone's mind about evolution. I am concerned about the people of God making bad arguments against evolution because it reflects poorly. I am also concerned about the tendency for individuals to cry heresy when another Christian has a different opinion regarding a very secondary issue that really isn't even part of standard theology.

But if you are determined to think "I know what this all looks like, but I believe this is what the Bible says and means, so I'm sticking with it", then I can respect that difference of opinion.

I am not opposed to what we believe details the process of what constitutes Creation.  But I am able to gather dust in my hands and apply small amounts of water until it becomes pliable like a material I can use to make molds with.   So, even as simple as we read it, it can be done even this very moment in 2021. 

 

But I do enjoy giving bones for sincerity and what others truly see and Believe.   And I offer the key that connects us all, the microorganisms, the bacteria's, the literal single cell kingdom are the key ingredients to how we connect Species to Species even from Mammalia to Plant Life.   We are specifically told that we are [MADE] from this combination what we call simple dust.  We are told that man himself was [MADE] to "till the ground."   Imagine, it's not just dig a hole, apply water and sun and the seed becomes life.   The life is in soil to sustain relative life forms.

 

I am amazed that we share so much DNA across the board.   We share like traits and characteristics to a majority of other Species that it is alarmingly.   But I completely understand why Science sees single cells in one form and can then find it common to be found in all living Species, and why one would think the [key] to life is through these microorganism.   They are in the Dirt!   They are part of the Dirt!  What a Beautiful Intelligent Design holding the key to physical life through the kingdom living within the Dirt!

 

But I do not see these factors as being a reason for Evolution.   A reason for sustaining life and the common denominator in all living life forms.   I am not bashful to thank Science for getting it to the Specifics, but in my opinion, it proves God's [written] way of dirt/water/clay, not single cell evolving into new and completely different Species anatomically.

Edited April 2, 2021 by kingdombrat

[The Barbarian]

42 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I am not concerned about changing anyone's mind about evolution. I am concerned about the people of God making bad arguments against evolution because it reflects poorly.

This is a serious problem, and causes people to doubt God.

 

[one.opinion]

1 hour ago, kingdombrat said:

but in my opinion, it proves God's [written] way of dirt/water/clay, not single cell evolving into new and completely different Species anatomically.

There are an incredible number of microbes in that dirt/water/clay, but I get your point. I'm glad we can respectfully agree to disagree.

[Guest kingdombrat]

53 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

There are an incredible number of microbes in that dirt/water/clay, but I get your point. I'm glad we can respectfully agree to disagree.

From each time the WORD scooped dust and then formed a Creation of life, each life form from those microbes represents all the forms of life because they're all being illustrated to being [Made by God] even to the same process.

 

So, if you're using the same cement mix for everything you create, there is no evolving into Species from a single cell Specie.   God took a handful of trillions of these microbes and then formed a Specie.   There is no evolving happening here.   God is the mixer of the genetics that still have the same genetics throughout each individual Creation.   

 

Let's say in [time] this is how it would happen, Evolution.

 

God, being Life itself, as He is the sustain-er of all life, bypassed the process of time itself.   That is the Intelligent Design!

Edited April 2, 2021 by kingdombrat

[BeyondET]

15 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

 

I did begin with, "how much time is from the Moment God caused the Beginning, to when God stopped being the Light and Created Light for both day and evening?

 

We Immediately see the Spirit of God above Earth being the Light to a Earth that is void and dark.   How long of a period is that From when God said, I want to do this, it begins, and now we're at this point of THE WORD hovering over darkness and the voided Earth?

 

Now, once we have Sun/Moon established, we have sunrise/sunset examples.   We know, or believe we know, by day 6 and Adam was created, the Cycle appears to be a normal 24 hour period.   Since other life was created before Adam and would survive with Adam, we can assume much of that was also on a 24 hour Cycle.  But Before sun/moon is created, and maybe until life forms are created that require the same Cycle as Adam, those areas can definitely be placed on the table for debate.   

The one that gets me is from when God chooses this [Plan], and something happens because it is suddenly darkness [so it's a separate Realm not connected to Heaven because Heaven will never be dark] and how long in the darkness till we see God and Earth before "Let there be Light," is how long?   Because it's clear Earth exists and God is hovering over it.   How long was Earth in its darkness before God hovers over it and begins working with it could be an interesting discovery, in my opinion.

Context is quite easy to understand.   If we step out of context, it's lack of understanding or trying to see something not there.

And once again, we fall back to Context!

I am all for [timeline] because first and foremost, the Bible is the oldest and truest Genealogy of a Specific Factual People who knew the One True God among all peoples on Earth.   This is their story about their life and what God did for them.   So a timeline factually exists.   We should want to know more about it.

I enjoy the Beautiful Idealism behind Intelligent Design.   And there is no mystery here that Adaption and Evolving do happen within all life forms.   But I am opposed that man evolved from another Species that itself evolved from other Species.   I am not opposed to Evolution of microorganism/bacteria,  but I am opposed to that single cell became human!

technically there is a center to the galaxy pretty much all light can been seen without science just saying if the solar system sun wasn’t formed there still would be a evening and morning sunrise and sunset on the grandeur side of things.

I’ve mentioned this before but below I am not saying someone switched or that I’m even remotely correct but just for the sake of saying, reading day 4 before day 3 then 5 so on. It is very striking that every thing flows extremely well without scratching the head on plants and no sun. and day 2 mentions the expanse and day 4 rolls right into placing lights in the expanse.

It is just very boggling it leaves no question on what light is needed for plants sun light like what is true today no sun no plants no anything living on earth. Does God need sun light for plants of coarse not but why is creation presented in such a way. I can’t even be 100% sure that chapter and verse numbering system was ordained or inspired by God to do so. if not can I trust the order of verse chapter etc. the order it’s in makes a person start pondering and questioning instantly. 

 

The Creation

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The First Day

 2Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3And God said, “Let there be light,”a and there was light. 4And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.5God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

The Second Day

6And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7So God made the expanse and separated the waters beneath it from the waters above. And it was so.8God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

The Fourth Day

14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years. 15And let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth.” And it was so.

16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

17God set these lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth,18to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

13And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The Third Day

9And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. 12The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Edited April 2, 2021 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

A lot of lights, interesting bit 

The first light God separated the light from darkness, named the light as day and darkness as night. 

The lights in the expanse distinguishes the day from the night, signs to mark the seasons and days and years, serve as lights in the expanse to shine upon the earth

The two great lights God creates separate light from darkness, they preside over the day and the night, He set them in the expanse. The greater rules the day and lesser rules the night to shine upon the earth.

and He made the stars too.

Edited April 2, 2021 by BeyondET