Can anyone be DEAD IN CHRIST or is that a contradiction in itself?

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Not at all.  ....Don’t you remember the GWTJ?

the Good word through Jesus?

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Paul is saying that the Lord is going to descend at the seventh trump and that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Why?  Because they have already died.  There is no way that any "living" can go first, because the soul of the living person is still here on earth in their flesh body. The soul doesn't depart until that silver thread of life has parted from their flesh body, meaning that they have died.

Sorry, but scripture does not indicate the 7th trumpet, but the last trumpet.   1 Corinthians 15:50-53

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Man looked at scripture and determined that the last trumpet must be the 7th trumpet as the 7th trumpet is the last time the word trumpet appears in the bible.  That does not make it 100% positive this is what 1 Corinthians 15 was talking about.  We just can't be sure.  If you have not gotten there yet, you will realize some day that assuming to know what scripture is saying when it itself is not clear in the wrong way to learn God word.

[DeighAnn]

Just now, OneLight said:

The verses you provided do not discount His return.  Even Jesus said to watch as we do not know the hour Jesus will return.  Do you need scripture?  Are you saying that Jesus will not return to "catch up" His people, as in the rapture?

We need to 'watch' every moment of every day because it may be our last.   Not "every ones" last day but our last day just the same.  All die and are judged.

  
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


I absolutely 100% believe Jesus will be returning FOR THE SECOND TIME AS  Lord of lords, King of kings, day of vengeance, the Lords Day, Millennium, when the two witness are told to arise, the end of the TEST, when all flesh will be eaten by the fowls of the air, when Gods wrath will be poured out,  A DAY when JUDGEMENT will never be easier as everyone on earth will either have NO MARK OF THE BEAST or HAVE THE MARK.  THERE is no other point in all this age where A QUICK JUDGMENT like that will be possible.  Wheat or tare.  Good fig or bad fig.  Overcame or overcome.  Virgin or with child.  Endured or taken. 

IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, after the apostasy, AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN, because that is the only time we are GATHERED.  

GODS PEOPLE  will have studied to show themselves approved, will have put on the gospel armor, will have withstood the fiery darts of Satan, will have  "overcometh"  so that "will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God"
and " Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."  and " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death"  they will "not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" 

GODS PEOPLE WILL ALSO  keepeth HIS works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations  AND as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:

even as I received of my Father.  THEY WILL HAVE PICKED UP THEIR CROSSES, 


GODS PEOPLE WILL NOT HAVE "seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it".


AND YES, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO HELP ME FIND MORE SCRIPTURE.  THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.  CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE IN MIND.  

[OneLight]

6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We need to 'watch' every moment of every day because it may be our last.   Not "every ones" last day but our last day just the same.  All die and are judged.

  
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


I absolutely 100% believe Jesus will be returning FOR THE SECOND TIME AS  Lord of lords, King of kings, day of vengeance, the Lords Day, Millennium, when the two witness are told to arise, the end of the TEST, when all flesh will be eaten by the fowls of the air, when Gods wrath will be poured out,  A DAY when JUDGEMENT will never be easier as everyone on earth will either have NO MARK OF THE BEAST or HAVE THE MARK.  THERE is no other point in all this age where A QUICK JUDGMENT like that will be possible.  Wheat or tare.  Good fig or bad fig.  Overcame or overcome.  Virgin or with child.  Endured or taken. 

IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, after the apostasy, AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN, because that is the only time we are GATHERED.  

GODS PEOPLE  will have studied to show themselves approved, will have put on the gospel armor, will have withstood the fiery darts of Satan, will have  "overcometh"  so that "will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God"
and " Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."  and " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death"  they will "not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" 

GODS PEOPLE WILL ALSO  keepeth HIS works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations  AND as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:

even as I received of my Father.  THEY WILL HAVE PICKED UP THEIR CROSSES, 


GODS PEOPLE WILL NOT HAVE "seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it".


AND YES, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO HELP ME FIND MORE SCRIPTURE.  THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.  CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE IN MIND.  

When Jesus gave us the signs to watch for, He was not speaking of any one persons last days.  That is very clear, but you seem to have a path you want to walk down, so I will just read for now and not try to discuss the difference as this thread is already going in more than one direction.

[DeighAnn]

27 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Paul is saying that the Lord is going to descend at the seventh trump and that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Why?  Because they have already died.  There is no way that any "living" can go first, because the soul of the living person is still here on earth in their flesh body. The soul doesn't depart until that silver thread of life has parted from their flesh body, meaning that they have died.

BUT HE  already said that.  Two or three times right before.  WE KNOW BY THIS POINT THEY ARE  they are COMING WITH HIM.



READ IT WITH YOUR OWN SPIRITUAL EYES. 

Here comes the Lord, descending,  with Him are those who have died and gone back to Him, an army is following Him

He is descending,  there is a shout, a loud command,  The Trump of God sounds  and  before those who are alive and remain, (alive and spiritually alive and remaining)

must wait until  THE DEAD, (only spiritually dead before the shout, BUT SINCE THE SHOUT, now flesh dead) because like their father they too must be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and rise.  (ex.  to go to the other side of the gulf) because  

ALL FLESH MUST BE DONE AWAY WITH.  THE KINGDOM OF GOD coming.  Birds about to feast on it all. The dead CAN'T BE EVER WITH THE LORD, at least not UNTIL THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM


Please don't think on it any more. 

If it is Gods Truth, it will never leave, 

If it isn't Gods Truth, HIS WORD WILL REVEAL THAT as IT WILL CAUSE CONFLICT WITHIN THE SCRIPTURE.


 

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Needed:  Eyes to see and ears to hear. . .

Rev. 16:17 
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

[18] And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

I am one who believes that the trumpet and vials do not occur at the some time.  I believe the seals come first, then the trumpets and then the vials.  Saying that, what does your post have to do with the last trumpet?  Trumpets are not mentioned in the verses at all.

By the way, agreeing with you does not mean one has eyes to see and ears to hear, not does disagreeing mean they do not. 

[DeighAnn]

21 minutes ago, OneLight said:

When Jesus gave us the signs to watch for, He was not speaking of any one persons last days.  That is very clear, but you seem to have a path you want to walk down, so I will just read for now and not try to discuss the difference as this thread is already going in more than one direction.

There was a King and a Kingdom offered, there was a Kingdom and a King rejected.  There was to be a last day at that time, just as there will be in the future. 

There is a difference from BEFORE the NT and AFTER He rose.  There are promises made in MATT, Mark Luke and John THAT ARE DIFFERENT because the kingdom had not been rejected. 

SO as LONG AS YOUR LAST DAY REFERENCES FALL IN THE BOOKS AFTER THOSE NO PROBLEMS, BUT IF THEY FALL IN THOSE BOOKS BIG PROBLEM.  

KINGDOM OFFERED, NOW IN ABEYANCE.  

[Brother Duke]

3 hours ago, SONshine said:

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Paul is saying that the Lord is going to descend at the seventh trump and that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Why?  Because they have already died.  There is no way that any "living" can go first, because the soul of the living person is still here on earth in their flesh body. The soul doesn't depart until that silver thread of life has parted from their flesh body, meaning that they have died.

Hi SONshine,

Also compare 1 Thess 4:16-17 to Rev 11:11-12.

 

Rev 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

These are the same event.  The Dead in Christ(2 Witnesses) are caught up after a Great Voice from Heaven(archangel) and meet Christ in the Clouds.

[Hopefully]

The dead in Christ are those who have died believing in Christ.

[Brother Duke]

9 hours ago, SONshine said:

Brother Duke, thank you so much for the lesson.  Wow!  I had never correlated these two passages in this way.  This is extremely awesome.  It makes perfect sense! 

I have talked to many dispensationalist who when confounded with this will just go on to say there are many raptures further expanding upon their dogma.

Another interesting two  scriptures are Rev 7:9,14 along with Rev 20:4,6

So many take part and are killed in the Tribulation that cannot even be counted by man.  I would submit this is in the Billion to Billions of souls.  They do not take the mark of the beast and are in the 1st Resurrection and live with Christ for a 1000 years.

I ask if there are so many that are in the tribulation who would even be left to take part in a pre-trib rapture if it was true?

 

 

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.