No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, biblelesson said:

The saints in Christ, who die in Christ, and whose souls are in heaven with Christ, their graves will open, and they will come out of their graves, and meet Christ in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  But they will not go back to heaven because Jesus is descending to earth, 

Are u sayin Jesus Will then make a U-Turn in the sky to return the resurrected saints back to the ground ?

Edited August 3, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Michael37]

On 2/5/2021 at 9:08 AM, Who me said:

My personal view is that as God is outside of time that when we die, we to0 move outside of time into where ever God is.

Yes, and it is comforting to know that we are always in the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:1-4  If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.  (2)  Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.  (3)  For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.  (4)  When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Rom 8:9-11  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  (10)  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:38-39  For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,  (39)  nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

1Jn 4:15-17  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.  (16)  And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.  (17)  Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

[iamlamad]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:57 AM, R. Hartono said:

Not true. Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was arised.

Jesus told Mary not to touch her because He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

I wonder if I really wrote that. I don't believe it, so I wonder. You are right, apparently I was wrong. Jesus took the ELDERS (Matthew 27 says "many") with Him when He rose. It is not written, but I believe they all went to heaven, after being seen. I believe they rose with resurrection bodies. Someone who has been in heaven and returned to tell, asked Abraham why he appeared different that others he had seen there. Abraham told him that he had received his resurrection body when Jesus rose. If true, it fits.

I believe the rest of the Old Testament saints will raise at the 7th vial that ends the week.

[iamlamad]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:40 AM, Justin Adams said:

So now, as we all sit watching the PPP fires burn. (pointless prophesy publications)

Singing 'Kumbaya' and awaiting the great sky elevator to whisk us up and away while our neighbors fry in God's Wrath. 

Seriously though, where do we stand now and what do we expect? Your thoughts.

I am certainly awaiting and expecting to hear the trumpet and suddenly begin to fly up, into the air. I think it could be any time. I expect His coming in the next few years.

Sorry, I don't sing Kumbaya. 

By the way, the door is open wide for salvation: so "those that fry" will do so because they refused to come when the door was open. However, God in His great mercy will still have another way to come. I suspect millions will turn to Jesus after the rapture.

Edited August 3, 2021 by iamlamad

[Justin Adams]

Sad, sad, SAD.

[Justin Adams]

Sad, sad, SAD.

[biblelesson]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are u sayin Jesus Will then make a U-Turn in the sky to return the resurrected saints back to the ground ?

So we can look at what scripture says!  Apostle Paul is identifying the timeframe and events that are take place in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  The events that's taking place is 1) there will be a shout, 2) there will be the trump of God, 3) Jesus will be descending, 4) the saints will be with Him.    

Shout: Jesus will shout.  Another account of this is when Jesus  brought Lazarus back. "He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth," John 11:43.

Trumpet: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is talking about Jesus's second coming. Revelation 11:14, when the seventh trumpet sounded, the verse in Revelation reads, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.  This account is in Mark 14:62, "And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."  Acts 1:11, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."  At Jesus's second coming all of His saints will be with Him, 1 Thessalonians 3:13.  

Jesus is descending: 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend...."

All Jesus's saints will be with Him: As Jesus is descending, He first calls His saints up to meet him in the clouds, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.   When Christ appear in His glory, His saints appear with Him, Colossians 3:4.  So they will descend with Him at His second coming.  The saints will descend with Christ to set Their feet on the  Mount of Olive with Jesus to do battle, in the war of Armageddon,  Revelation 16:16, " Jude 14 & 15, "...the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of the their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed..."      

[David1701]

11 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Are u sayin Jesus Will then make a U-Turn in the sky to return the resurrected saints back to the ground ?

It was a custom, in ancient times, when a king visited a city, for the rulers of the city to go out to meet the king, then to escort him into the city.

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

 I would like to show you, through the bible, resurrection, Abraham's bosom, and where the saint's souls go when they die.

Abraham's bosom:  Lazarus and the Rich man both died and both were buried.  However, before Christ, the two were under the Old Covenant, the law, and when they died, Lazarus the bagger was taken by the angel to a place of safety, Abraham's bosom, Luke 16:19-24, but the Rich man was tormented in fire (hell).  Lazarus's soul was in Abraham's bosom, and the Rich man's soul was in hell.  It was prophesied that at Jesus's crucifixion, He said, thou would not leave my soul in hell, Psalm 16:10, Acts 2:27.  This explains when Jesus died, He descended into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9; He went and preached to spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:19.  Jesus preached the gospel to those who were dead to be judged in the flesh, but to live to God in the spirit, 1 Peter 4:6.  

Shalom, biblelesson.

Sorry, my friend, but that's not true. While it IS the unfortunate rhetoric of mankind's theology, under which we currently operate, it's not the TRUTH of what happens when a person dies. And, it doesn't matter WHEN a person died; they face the SAME FUTURE! JUDGMENT! 

First, don't you find it odd that one would be suffering in "hell" BEFORE he's been judged at the Great White Throne Judgment? The punishment comes BEFORE the judgment? That's NOT RIGHT! The sentence is always passed AFTER the judgment, because it's the judgment that justifies the punishment!

Second, don't mix the English (Norse) word "hell" (or "hel") with the biblical meanings of the Hebrew word "sh'owl" and the Greek word "hadees." It's UNFORTUNATE that the word "hell" was used to translate TOO MANY WORDS that MEAN something DIFFERENT in the original languages.

The word "sh'owl" in Hebrew comes from the same root word as the words "Sha'uwl" ("Saul") and "shaa'al" translated as "ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, X earnestly, enquire, + greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, + salute, X straitly, X surely, wish" in the King James Version. The root word "shaa'al" means "to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand." In the case of the name "Sha'uwl" (or "Saul"), it means "asked FOR." In the case of the "place of the dead," it means "asked ABOUT." It's the GRAVE SITE - the MEMORIAL - at which children will ask their parents about the person deceased!

So, when David used the word "lish'owl" (adding the "l-" prefix meaning "to" or "for"), in Psalm 16:10, he was talking about the PHYSICAL GRAVE in which Yeshua` would be buried! (The lamed prefix "l-" does NOT mean "in"; the bet prefix "b-" does.) And, this is confirmed in the second part of the poetic pair of clauses:

Psalm 16:10 (KJV)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

When Kefa ("Peter") used this word in his argument to the Jews in Acts 2:27, he used either the Hebrew word itself or he used the Aramaic equivalent. LATER, that verse was translated into the Greek words "eis hadeen," meaning "into [the] unseen," the PHYSICAL place where bodies were placed "OUT OF SIGHT!" The Greek translator most certainly was NOT using the word "hadees" as the Greek mythological place of the dead, "Hades." That word does NOT always mean what the MYTHOLOGY of the Greek pantheon of gods TAUGHT! It's basic meaning is ...

(from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place."

In Ephesians 4:9, the "lower places" ARE the "regions of the earth," "of the ground!" Again, this is a QUOTE from Psalm 68:18. Let's look at the whole Psalm (because it SHOULD influence one's perspective on the future) and focus on the verse in its context:

Psalm 68:1- (NIV)

1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
2 May you blow them away like smoke—
as wax melts before the fire,
may the wicked perish before God.
3 But may the righteous be glad
and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.
4 Sing to God, sing in praise of his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds;
rejoice before him—his name is the LORD.
5 A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.
6 God sets the lonely in families,
he leads out the prisoners with singing;
but the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.
7 When you, God, went out before your people,
when you marched through the wilderness,
8 the earth shook, the heavens poured down rain,
before God, the One of Sinai,
before God, the God of Israel.
9 You gave abundant showers, O God;
you refreshed your weary inheritance.
10 Your people settled in it,
and from your bounty, God, you provided for the poor.
11 The LORD announces the word,
and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:

12 “Kings and armies flee in haste;
the women at home divide the plunder.
13 Even while you sleep among the sheep pens,
the wings of my dove are sheathed with silver,
its feathers with shining gold.”

14 When the Almighty scattered the kings in the land,
it was like snow fallen on Mount Zalmon.
15 Mount Bashan, majestic mountain,
Mount Bashan, rugged mountain,
16 why gaze in envy, you rugged mountain,
at the mountain where God chooses to reign,
where the LORD himself will dwell forever?
17 The chariots of God are tens of thousands
and thousands of thousands;
the LORD has come from Sinai into his sanctuary.
18 When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, LORD God, might dwell there.
19 Praise be to the LORD, to God our Savior,
who daily bears our burdens.
20 Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.
21 Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies,
the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins.

22 The LORD says, “I will bring them from Bashan;
I will bring them from the depths of the sea,
23 that your feet may wade in the blood of your foes,
while the tongues of your dogs have their share.”

24 Your procession, God, has come into view,
the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary.
25 In front are the singers, after them the musicians;
with them are the young women playing the timbrels.
26 Praise God in the great congregation;
praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.
27 There is the little tribe of Benjamin, leading them,
there the great throng of Judah’s princes,
and there the princes of Zebulun and of Naphtali.

28 Summon your power, God;
show us your strength, our God, as you have done before.
29 Because of your temple at Jerusalem
kings will bring you gifts.
30 Rebuke the beast among the reeds,
the herd of bulls among the calves of the nations.
Humbled, may the beast bring bars of silver.
Scatter the nations who delight in war.

31 Envoys will come from Egypt;
Cush will submit herself to God.
32 Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth,
sing praise to the Lord,
33 to him who rides across the highest heavens, the ancient heavens,
who thunders with mighty voice.
34 Proclaim the power of God,
whose majesty is over Israel,
whose power is in the heavens.
35 You, God, are awesome in your sanctuary;
the God of Israel gives power and strength to his people.
Praise be to God!

This passage of Scripture, quoted in Ephesians 4, is about the EXODUS! It's about when the LORD God "ascended on high," the height of Sinai, and later, into His sanctuary upon Zion! The "lower regions of the earth" were the LOWLANDS of Egypt's delta!

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

When Jesus ascended he lead captivity captive, Ephesians 4:8,.

The "captivity" that GOD "led captive" were the SLAVES of Egypt, the children of Israel, who were led out of Egypt into the wilderness! The gifts that He had given to men (from the Egyptians) and had taken from men were all the gold and silver and precious stones that the Egyptians had given them to LEAVE! These items were used to build the Tabernacle!

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

  So those in Abraham's bosom were taken out of that place, and taken to heaven with him. 

Nope. This is a fallacy that is assumed to connect the two passages and "explain" these obscure passages. (They're only "obscure" to those who don't read them in context.)

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

After Jesus's resurrection, graves were opened, and the saints that slept rose and appeared to men, Matthew 27:52-53.  We know they must have gone with Jesus when Jesus ascended, Ephesians 4:8, because those who came out of their graves were called "saints."  I don't know if some people think that these people which had been dead, buried and rose, would live again in the flesh.  But consider that after Jesus rose, He also appeared to His disciples for many days, where He had a different type of body where he could walk through closed doors, John 20:26, but His body could be touch by man, specifically, Thomas, John 20:27.  So it stand to reason that the graves that opened had bodies like Jesus's body, and when Jesus ascended, they ascended with Him to heaven.

Actually, it doesn't.

First, the graves were opened at Yeshua's DEATH ON THE CROSS! Why else would they have been mentioned in Matthew 23? These "saints" (which means "holy" or "sanctified" ones) were NOT "Christians," in the modern sense of the word. They were members of the children of Israel, the "holy nation." "Holy" doesn't mean "righteous," either. It means "ritually clean and set apart for a purpose." While some thought they could be righteous on their own, David noted that one cannot be righteous apart from God's mercy and justification, His imputed righteousness.

Psalm 32:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

These holy ones who were resurrected at Yeshua`s death just didn't come OUT of their tombs until after the Lord's Resurrection. And, they DID live again in the flesh physically! That's what "resurrection" means, not this nonsense we hear in popular songs today! They were resurrected as the same bodies that Eleazar ("Lazarus") was! And, the chief priests and Pharisees sought how they might kill Eleazar as well as Yeshua`!

John 12:9-11 (KJV)

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

Yeshua` ALONE was resurrected with a body that would never die again! HE was the "Firstfruits" of the Resurrection!

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The verbs here are in the SINGULAR number! Indeed, even the word translated "firstfruits" (Greek: aparchee) is a SINGULAR word. It's just unfortunate that the word was translated with an "-s" at the end.

While it is true that Yeshua` was a body that was different in that He could no longer die, it is NOT true that He wasn't REAL FLESH! Pay close attention to His words:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"  

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Oh, and by the way, John 20:26 doesn't say that He could "walk through closed doors." Again, one must be very careful with the particulars, particularly in the Greek:

John 20:26 (KJV)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said,

"Peace be unto you." 

In the Greek, this is:

26 Kai meth' heemeras oktoo polin eesan esoo hoi matheetai autou, kai Thoomas met' autoon. Erchetai ho Ieesous toon thuroon kekleismenoon, kai estee eis to meson kai eipen,

"Eireenee humin."

26 Kai = 26 And
meth' (meta) = with/among/after
heemeras = days
oktoo = eight
palin = again
eesan = were
esoo = inside
hoi = the
matheetai = students/disciples
autou, = of-Him/His,
kai = and
Thoomas = Thomas
met' (meta) = with/among/after
autoon. = them.
Erchetai = Comes
ho = the
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
toon = the
thuroon = doors
kekleismenoon, = having-been-shut,
kai = and
estee = He-stood
eis = into
to = the
meson = middle
kai = and
eipen, = He-said,

"Eireenee = "Peace (Shalom)
humin." = to-you."

They didn't know how He got in there; He didn't tell them how He got in there; so, WE don't know how He got in there! One can make all sorts of speculations, but WE DON'T KNOW! If one wants to speculate, one could suggest that He moved with SUPER-SPEED like the comicbook hero, the Flash, opening and closing the door so fast, that He just SEEMED to APPEAR out of nowhere! Again, WE DON'T KNOW!

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Abraham's bosom was for those under the "Old Covenant," and they have been released from that place of safety, and their souls are with Christ.  They have been given their heavenly bodies.  Those who die after Christ has already ascended and is sitting on the right hand of God the Father, their souls will go to be with Christ, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8. Even consider Revelation 6:9-11. 

Again, this is ALL sheer speculation. The Scriptures that you've referenced do NOT support your conclusions!

Philippians 1:21-26 (KJV)

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

2 Corinthians 5:8 6-10 (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In both of these passages of Scripture, one should NOT assume that there is continuity of life! To be "absent from the body" is to leave the body of the Messiah behind as one begins his or her long sleep awaiting the Resurrection. When one wakes up, one will be with the Lord Yeshua`.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In all three of these passages, one should remember that we don't "HAVE souls" we "ARE souls!" We don't "HAVE bodies"; we "ARE bodies!" Look again at the simple truth of Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here's the Hebrew (transliterated):

7 Vayyiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyippah b'appaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'Aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah.

7 Vayyiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = the LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (the next word is the direct object)
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[man]
aafaar = of-dust
min- = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground]
vayyippah = and-He-puffed
b'appaayow = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayyiym = of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[man]
l-nefesh = to/into-an-air-breathing-being
chayyaah. = living.

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh).  From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Notice that "nefesh," meaning an "air-breathing-being," comes from the root word "naafash" meaning "to-breathe-air."

So, First, Adam ("the Red man") was "formed of dust from the ground," NOT "his body!" 

Second, the puff of living things was puffed "into the nostrils" of Adam ("the Red man"), NOT "into the nostrils of his body"; and,

Third, Adam ("the Red man") "BECAME a living air-breathing-being," NOT "ACQUIRED a living air-breathing-body!"

Look, the facts show that one is alive when one IS a "soul," an "air-breathing being." So, the "souls under the altar" are already BREATHING! They are already depicted in the prophecy as being resurrected!

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

When Jesus comes down, those souls in heaven, their graves will open, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and those alive will be changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.  The way it happened when Jesus was raised from the dead where those in Abraham's bosom's graves opened, and their souls were taken with Jesus to Heaven, a similar thing will take place. The souls that are under the "New Covenant," in Christ, when they die, their souls go to be with Christ in heaven. 

Frankly, there ARE NO "souls in heaven." "Souls" or "air-breathing beings" are here on earth, outside of their graves! That's not what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is all about. It's about the RESURRECTION!!! Look at it carefully again:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

Not "with Him" from heaven, but "with Him" from the grave and wherever they were buried upon the face of the earth. It's a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to gather them all to Himself in Israel!

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (from the sky) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice: It NEVER says that He takes us "back to Heaven!" Rather, it simply says that we shall "ever be with the Lord Yeshua`." And, when He returns, He will be on a mission of passion!

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

At Christ's return, in the first resurrection, their graves will open and they will come out of their graves; again although their souls are with Christ.   This is the joining of all the saints in Christ, the Old and the New Covenant, to be with Christ forever, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 7:9,   Jesus is the Lord over all!  

Yes, here, you are right! But Yeshua` ("Jesus") will be zealous for His Land and His people!

Joel 2:17-32 (KJV)

17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say,

"Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, 'Where is their God?'"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

19 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Those in hell, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:14, where they will never die.  

I know some will not see this the way I see it.  But, I have tried to list as may scriptures for your review.    

Again, since when does God punish wrong-doers BEFORE they've had their trial? That's not God's way. He typically judges evil-doers FIRST and THEN He passes sentence upon them!

[biblelesson]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, biblelesson.

Sorry, my friend, but that's not true. While it IS the unfortunate rhetoric of mankind's theology, under which we currently operate, it's not the TRUTH of what happens when a person dies. And, it doesn't matter WHEN a person died; they face the SAME FUTURE! JUDGMENT! 

First, don't you find it odd that one would be suffering in "hell" BEFORE he's been judged at the Great White Throne Judgment? The punishment comes BEFORE the judgment? That's NOT RIGHT! The sentence is always passed AFTER the judgment, because it's the judgment that justifies the punishment!

Second, don't mix the English (Norse) word "hell" (or "hel") with the biblical meanings of the Hebrew word "sh'owl" and the Greek word "hadees." It's UNFORTUNATE that the word "hell" was used to translate TOO MANY WORDS that MEAN something DIFFERENT in the original languages.

The word "sh'owl" in Hebrew comes from the same root word as the words "Sha'uwl" ("Saul") and "shaa'al" translated as "ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, X earnestly, enquire, + greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, + salute, X straitly, X surely, wish" in the King James Version. The root word "shaa'al" means "to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand." In the case of the name "Sha'uwl" (or "Saul"), it means "asked FOR." In the case of the "place of the dead," it means "asked ABOUT." It's the GRAVE SITE - the MEMORIAL - at which children will ask their parents about the person deceased!

So, when David used the word "lish'owl" (adding the "l-" prefix meaning "to" or "for"), in Psalm 16:10, he was talking about the PHYSICAL GRAVE in which Yeshua` would be buried! (The lamed prefix "l-" does NOT mean "in"; the bet prefix "b-" does.) And, this is confirmed in the second part of the poetic pair of clauses:

Psalm 16:10 (KJV)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

When Kefa ("Peter") used this word in his argument to the Jews in Acts 2:27, he used either the Hebrew word itself or he used the Aramaic equivalent. LATER, that verse was translated into the Greek words "eis hadeen," meaning "into [the] unseen," the PHYSICAL place where bodies were placed "OUT OF SIGHT!" The Greek translator most certainly was NOT using the word "hadees" as the Greek mythological place of the dead, "Hades." That word does NOT always mean what the MYTHOLOGY of the Greek pantheon of gods TAUGHT! It's basic meaning is ...

(from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place."

In Ephesians 4:9, the "lower places" ARE the "regions of the earth," "of the ground!" Again, this is a QUOTE from Psalm 68:18. Let's look at the whole Psalm (because it SHOULD influence one's perspective on the future) and focus on the verse in its context:

Psalm 68:1- (NIV)

1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
2 May you blow them away like smoke—
as wax melts before the fire,
may the wicked perish before God.
3 But may the righteous be glad
and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.
4 Sing to God, sing in praise of his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds;
rejoice before him—his name is the LORD.
5 A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.
6 God sets the lonely in families,
he leads out the prisoners with singing;
but the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.
7 When you, God, went out before your people,
when you marched through the wilderness,
8 the earth shook, the heavens poured down rain,
before God, the One of Sinai,
before God, the God of Israel.
9 You gave abundant showers, O God;
you refreshed your weary inheritance.
10 Your people settled in it,
and from your bounty, God, you provided for the poor.
11 The LORD announces the word,
and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:

12 “Kings and armies flee in haste;
the women at home divide the plunder.
13 Even while you sleep among the sheep pens,
the wings of my dove are sheathed with silver,
its feathers with shining gold.”

14 When the Almighty scattered the kings in the land,
it was like snow fallen on Mount Zalmon.
15 Mount Bashan, majestic mountain,
Mount Bashan, rugged mountain,
16 why gaze in envy, you rugged mountain,
at the mountain where God chooses to reign,
where the LORD himself will dwell forever?
17 The chariots of God are tens of thousands
and thousands of thousands;
the LORD has come from Sinai into his sanctuary.
18 When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, LORD God, might dwell there.
19 Praise be to the LORD, to God our Savior,
who daily bears our burdens.
20 Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.
21 Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies,
the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins.

22 The LORD says, “I will bring them from Bashan;
I will bring them from the depths of the sea,
23 that your feet may wade in the blood of your foes,
while the tongues of your dogs have their share.”

24 Your procession, God, has come into view,
the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary.
25 In front are the singers, after them the musicians;
with them are the young women playing the timbrels.
26 Praise God in the great congregation;
praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.
27 There is the little tribe of Benjamin, leading them,
there the great throng of Judah’s princes,
and there the princes of Zebulun and of Naphtali.

28 Summon your power, God;
show us your strength, our God, as you have done before.
29 Because of your temple at Jerusalem
kings will bring you gifts.
30 Rebuke the beast among the reeds,
the herd of bulls among the calves of the nations.
Humbled, may the beast bring bars of silver.
Scatter the nations who delight in war.

31 Envoys will come from Egypt;
Cush will submit herself to God.
32 Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth,
sing praise to the Lord,
33 to him who rides across the highest heavens, the ancient heavens,
who thunders with mighty voice.
34 Proclaim the power of God,
whose majesty is over Israel,
whose power is in the heavens.
35 You, God, are awesome in your sanctuary;
the God of Israel gives power and strength to his people.
Praise be to God!

This passage of Scripture, quoted in Ephesians 4, is about the EXODUS! It's about when the LORD God "ascended on high," the height of Sinai, and later, into His sanctuary upon Zion! The "lower regions of the earth" were the LOWLANDS of Egypt's delta!

The "captivity" that GOD "led captive" were the SLAVES of Egypt, the children of Israel, who were led out of Egypt into the wilderness! The gifts that He had given to men (from the Egyptians) and had taken from men were all the gold and silver and precious stones that the Egyptians had given them to LEAVE! These items were used to build the Tabernacle!

Nope. This is a fallacy that is assumed to connect the two passages and "explain" these obscure passages. (They're only "obscure" to those who don't read them in context.)

Actually, it doesn't.

First, the graves were opened at Yeshua's DEATH ON THE CROSS! Why else would they have been mentioned in Matthew 23? These "saints" (which means "holy" or "sanctified" ones) were NOT "Christians," in the modern sense of the word. They were members of the children of Israel, the "holy nation." "Holy" doesn't mean "righteous," either. It means "ritually clean and set apart for a purpose." While some thought they could be righteous on their own, David noted that one cannot be righteous apart from God's mercy and justification, His imputed righteousness.

Psalm 32:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.}

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

These holy ones who were resurrected at Yeshua`s death just didn't come OUT of their tombs until after the Lord's Resurrection. And, they DID live again in the flesh physically! That's what "resurrection" means, not this nonsense we hear in popular songs today! They were resurrected as the same bodies that Eleazar ("Lazarus") was! And, the chief priests and Pharisees sought how they might kill Eleazar as well as Yeshua`!

John 12:9-11 (KJV)

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

Yeshua` ALONE was resurrected with a body that would never die again! HE was the "Firstfruits" of the Resurrection!

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The verbs here are in the SINGULAR number! Indeed, even the word translated "firstfruits" (Greek: aparchee) is a SINGULAR word. It's just unfortunate that the word was translated with an "-s" at the end.

While it is true that Yeshua` was a body that was different in that He could no longer die, it is NOT true that He wasn't REAL FLESH! Pay close attention to His words:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"  

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Oh, and by the way, John 20:26 doesn't say that He could "walk through closed doors." Again, one must be very careful with the particulars, particularly in the Greek:

John 20:26 (KJV)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said,

"Peace be unto you." 

In the Greek, this is:

26 Kai meth' heemeras oktoo polin eesan esoo hoi matheetai autou, kai Thoomas met' autoon. Erchetai ho Ieesous toon thuroon kekleismenoon, kai estee eis to meson kai eipen,

"Eireenee humin."

26 Kai = 26 And
meth' (meta) = with/among/after
heemeras = days
oktoo = eight
palin = again
eesan = were
esoo = inside
hoi = the
matheetai = students/disciples
autou, = of-Him/His,
kai = and
Thoomas = Thomas
met' (meta) = with/among/after
autoon. = them.
Erchetai = Comes
ho = the
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
toon = the
thuroon = doors
kekleismenoon, = having-been-shut,
kai = and
estee = He-stood
eis = into
to = the
meson = middle
kai = and
eipen, = He-said,

"Eireenee = "Peace (Shalom)
humin." = to-you."

They didn't know how He got in there; He didn't tell them how He got in there; so, WE don't know how He got in there! One can make all sorts of speculations, but WE DON'T KNOW! If one wants to speculate, one could suggest that He moved with SUPER-SPEED like the comicbook hero, the Flash, opening and closing the door so fast, that He just SEEMED to APPEAR out of nowhere! Again, WE DON'T KNOW!

Again, this is ALL sheer speculation. The Scriptures that you've referenced do NOT support your conclusions!

Philippians 1:21-26 (KJV)

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

2 Corinthians 5:8 6-10 (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In both of these passages of Scripture, one should NOT assume that there is continuity of life! To be "absent from the body" is to leave the body of the Messiah behind as one begins his or her long sleep awaiting the Resurrection. When one wakes up, one will be with the Lord Yeshua`.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In all three of these passages, one should remember that we don't "HAVE souls" we "ARE souls!" We don't "HAVE bodies"; we "ARE bodies!" Look again at the simple truth of Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here's the Hebrew (transliterated):

7 Vayyiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyippah b'appaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'Aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah.

7 Vayyiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = the LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (the next word is the direct object)
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[man]
aafaar = of-dust
min- = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground]
vayyippah = and-He-puffed
b'appaayow = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayyiym = of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[man]
l-nefesh = to/into-an-air-breathing-being
chayyaah. = living.

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh).  From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Notice that "nefesh," meaning an "air-breathing-being," comes from the root word "naafash" meaning "to-breathe-air."

So, First, Adam ("the Red man") was "formed of dust from the ground," NOT "his body!" 

Second, the puff of living things was puffed "into the nostrils" of Adam ("the Red man"), NOT "into the nostrils of his body"; and,

Third, Adam ("the Red man") "BECAME a living air-breathing-being," NOT "ACQUIRED a living air-breathing-body!"

Look, the facts show that one is alive when one IS a "soul," an "air-breathing being." So, the "souls under the altar" are already BREATHING! They are already depicted in the prophecy as being resurrected!

Frankly, there ARE NO "souls in heaven." "Souls" or "air-breathing beings" are here on earth, outside of their graves! That's not what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is all about. It's about the RESURRECTION!!! Look at it carefully again:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

Not "with Him" from heaven, but "with Him" from the grave and wherever they were buried upon the face of the earth. It's a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to gather them all to Himself in Israel!

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (from the sky) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice: It NEVER says that He takes us "back to Heaven!" Rather, it simply says that we shall "ever be with the Lord Yeshua`." And, when He returns, He will be on a mission of passion!

Yes, here, you are right! But Yeshua` ("Jesus") will be zealous for His Land and His people!

Joel 2:17-32 (KJV)

17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say,

"Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, 'Where is their God?'"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

Again, since when does God punish wrong-doers BEFORE they've had their trial? That's not God's way. He typically judges evil-doers FIRST and THEN He passes sentence upon them!

 

Thank you for your extensive review and comments.  One point I have is I'm unable to see how "certain meaning of words" in the bible can be interpreted based on the Greek language, considering the bible has been interpreted already 400 or so years ago.  To do this is considered changing the word of God to be interpreted the way a person want it to be, to their liking, and not the way it has already been interpreted by those God entrusted to do so so many hundred years ago.  We are not Greek scholars.  We don't speak the Greek language.  It's my opinion that people doing this is making a grave mistake. 

Second, I'm not up to my own opinion on the Word of God.  I can't say what God won't do because it doesn't sound right to me.  I can only list what the Word of God says, and show the scriptures.  If the scriptures don't show us what God is doing, then that's fine.  But I can't say it's not true simply because it doesn't make sense to me.  I'm not God, and I didn't write the Bible.  

I'm  unable to see your view based on the references you have provided.  It does not flow well for me, based on other scripture context I'm familiar with, to where I can understand your conclusions.  

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by biblelesson