The misleading translation n interpretation of Matthew 24 : 29-30

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

They know the wrath of God is coming. Hide us they cry. When the 7th seal is opened wrath can begin. Wrath cannot begin until the 7th seal opened. This is simple stuff. Use common sense.

As usual, you have destroyed John's chronology. Do you not understand the TIMING of chapter 14? It is some unknown time AFTER the midpoint abomination. It is also PROPHETIC. It is prophesying the murder of the saints during the GT, and it is prophesying the millions who will die at Armageddon. Chapter 14 has NOTHING to do with the church.

"Hide us, they cry." You are miles off from John's chronology. This cry to hide them is in chapter 6 of Revelation, BEFORE any part of the 70th week. Chapter 14 timing is over 3 1/2 years LATER. "Never the twain shall meet." We cannot WARP time in Revelation.

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When the 7th seal is opened wrath can begin.

At the 7th seal, God is ALREADY angry and has begun the DAY of His wrath. Now, with the first trumpet judgment, God will begin USING HIs wrath in judgment.

Here is where you miss it BIG time: the 7th seal is only the BEGINNING of "the tribulation" or the 70th week of Daniel.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Paul is telling us that the rapture of the Church will happen at the trump of God. Then Paul talks of the times and seasons, meaning there is a time for the rapture and a time for the day of the Lord. They are in different seasons. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The days of the Lord happens when the 7th seal is opened. Two completely different times and seasons which is why Paul did not say "of the TIME and SEASON.

Where you are MISSING IT.

1 Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

HOW can we "ever be with the Lord?" The answer is simple: by way of the rapture or being caught up. Since we are to be caught up before wrath, it is indeed a comfort.

In chapter 5, HOW can we "live together with Him?" The answer is simple: by way of the rapture or being caught up. But in chapter 5, Paul wrote "to obtain salvation." In other words, to be raptured. Since we are to be caught up before wrath, it is indeed a comfort.

Paul is repeating the rapture again in chapter 5, first to show us he has not quit writing of the rapture, but second to show us that events in chapter 5 happen at the same time.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [WHEN are people saying "peace and safety?" They are saying this just before the rapture events. WHEN will this "sudden destruction hit? It will hit a moment after the dead in Christ are raised.]

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [Paul is connecting his "sudden destruction" with God's wrath. Paul is writing a paradigm: bringing up two different groups of people to show us the different outcome between "we" and "us" and "they" and "them:" those who live in the light of the gospel, and those who don't. A moment after the rapture, TWO different groups of people get TWO very different results. Those living in the light get caught up, and get to "live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord) while those living in the darkness get "sudden destruction," which will come with God's wrath.]

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [We get to live together with Him by being caught up.]

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The days of the Lord happens when the 7th seal is opened.

The Day of the Lord BEGINS (God begins to get angry so officially begins the DAY of His wrath) at the 6th seal. A few days later, at the 7th seal, THE BOOK gets opened which will reveal the 70th week of Daniel, written INSIDE the book. The first thing read inside is that seven angels get their trumpets. God's wrath then begins to be FELT on earth as the first trumpet judgment sounds.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal. See Matthew 24. The world will see Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

They know the wrath of God is coming. Hide us they cry. When the 7th seal is opened wrath can begin. Wrath cannot begin until the 7th seal opened. This is simple stuff. Use common sense.

Paul is telling us that the rapture of the Church will happen at the trump of God. Then Paul talks of the times and seasons, meaning there is a time for the rapture and a time for the day of the Lord. They are in different seasons. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The days of the Lord happens when the 7th seal is opened. Two completely different times and seasons which is why Paul did not say "of the TIME and SEASON.

Awesome. You got one. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the second harvest and have nothing to do with the rapture of the Church. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

I am not trying to mix the Church with Israel. For the 212th time, the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

Nope. For the 213th time, the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest which is why there are 144,000 first fruits and they are the first fruits of the second harvest.

The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. 

Part of Israel will see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Lord comes for the seed of the woman, Israel at the 6th seal. This is why you see the great multifude that is gathered from heaven and earth. 

Only those of the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. 

If you understood what you are reading, you would understand that the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God. They are sealed when they believe. If you understood that Revelation 14 takes place in the seals you see the great tribulation which occurs in the 5th seal. Then you would realize that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the great tribulation which means they are not going through wrath. Wrath is over at the 6th seal................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULION OF THOSE DAYS........and then wrath begins when the 7th seal is opened.

Well you understand that. Thats a step in the right direction. Now all you have to understand is that the seals are not opened yet and will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Jacobs trouble is over when Jesus comes for the 2nd harvest at the 6th seal which is why you see the great multitude that was gathered from heaven and earth.

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord............HE HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH. It is the time of judgement.

Chapter 11 is PART of the wrath of God. The wrath of God lasts just over a year. It cannot be the midpoint.

I have rearranged nothing. Revelation reads just like Genesis 7. Go read Genesis 7 and let me know how many times Noah loads the animals. How many floods are there?

You do not understand what you are reading. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. This is why you see the great tribulation in Revelation, which occurs during the fifth seal and you see the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal, which is why there is a great multitude in Rev 7

I fully believe Johns chronology. I just understand that John gives us two views of the tribulation and two views of wrath. Just like we get 3 views of Noah loading the animals and 3 views of the earth being flooded.

Some day you need to understand what you are reading.

There is a saying, "they are out in left field." This is often said when someone's theories are far off from the norm. Others say, "they have left the ball part!" This is the extreme! Someone's theories are even father off from the norm.

I give up. I consider your theories as having left the ballpark.

We are not going to agree until we arrive in heaven. Then we won't care.

[Markie51]

“Darkening” of sun, moon and stars are symbolic, a metaphor-in this example.  Yes, other references to darkening of the heavens, sun, moon, stars, and etcetera where literal (Exodus 10:21-23; Joshua 10:12-14; Luke 23:44, 45).  In Matthew, such conditions are referring/represent the loss of prosperous and favorable conditions; and, replaced by much less desirable conditions as the result of being alienated or in an unapproved relationship with God.

[BibleWords]

On 4/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, iamlamad said:

Correct: Jesus is the One who opened the first seal—somewhere around 32 AD.

The white horse and rider are probably symbolic, and are meant to represent the CHURCH (Not Jesus) with the everlasting GOSPEL (Still not Jesus).

Anyone can pull a verse out of its context and make the bible say almost anything. The context of this first seal is Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. 

John used "white" 17 times in Revelation. This time, it was a white horse. White here must mean what white meant in the other 16 uses in Revelation: righteousness, worthiness, or holiness. Anything else would be very inconsistent, and God is NOT inconsistent.

The only righteous entity on earth around 32 AD was the infant church. About this same time, Jesus told the church to take the gospel to the world. This is what the first seal is to represent.

There is no Scriptural evidence that 32 AD was Jesus opening any seal.  Complete speculation.

That would make the book of Revelation spread across the entire Church Age.  Nowhere is that taught in Scripture.

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, BibleWords said:

There is no Scriptural evidence that 32 AD was Jesus opening any seal.  Complete speculation.

That would make the book of Revelation spread across the entire Church Age.  Nowhere is that taught in Scripture.

Apostle John has seen Jesus opening the seals circa AD 85. It doesnt mean it has already happened.

[BibleWords]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Apostle John has seen Jesus opening the seals circa AD 85. It doesnt mean it has already happened.

That’s correct, it has not.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, BibleWords said:

There is no Scriptural evidence that 32 AD was Jesus opening any seal.  Complete speculation.

That would make the book of Revelation spread across the entire Church Age.  Nowhere is that taught in Scripture.

Au contraire! Ask yourself:

In Revelation 4, WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? We have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been around 95 AD.

Still in chapter 4, John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, but Jesus said that He would send Him down when He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in a vision seen in 95 AD?

In chapter 5, there was a search for one worthy to open the seals, but that search ended in failure. WHY was Jesus not found in that first search?

The answer to all questions is, God had a problem. He wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with seals, but CHOSE to begin while the book was still in the Father's hand. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, that would mean, SOMEHOW God would have to show John that the vision he was seeing of the throne room was the throne room of the PAST, a time while Jesus was still under the earth.

Jesus was NOT SEEN in the throne room because at that time He was under the earth. The Holy Spirit was still there because Jesus had not ascended to send Him down. Jesus was NOT found worthy in that first search, because He had not yet risen from the dead (in the vision, not in reality).

But TIME PASSED in the vision, Jesus rose from the dead (prevailed) then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

WHEN did Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch him for He had not yet ascended? That would be around 32 AD. You were simply mistaken.

No one can find 2000 years in any of those verses. Jesus has not held that book for 2000 years. The intent of scripture is that Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended and began right then opening seals.

Seal 1: the CHURCH (righteous) taking the gospel to the world.

Seals 2, 3, 4: to represent the DEVIL trying to stop the church. God has allowed him to use wars, famines, and pestilences, and death by these three, plus wild beasts.

Seal 5, the first hint of a long time of waiting. It is for the church age martyrs. They are told they have to wait for the time of judgment until the FINAL church age martyr.

Just so you know, the church has been waiting now at that 5th seal for around 2000 years. 

The 6th seal begins judgment and wrath. We are NOT THERE yet. Paul wrote that the Day of the Lord would begin right after the rapture of the church. The rapture has not happened yet. We are waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. VERY SOON now, Jesus will come for His church, causing a certain martyr to be that FINAL 

[BibleWords]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Au contraire! Ask yourself:

In Revelation 4, WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father? We have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been around 95 AD.

Still in chapter 4, John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, but Jesus said that He would send Him down when He ascended. WHY was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in a vision seen in 95 AD?

In chapter 5, there was a search for one worthy to open the seals, but that search ended in failure. WHY was Jesus not found in that first search?

The answer to all questions is, God had a problem. He wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with seals, but CHOSE to begin while the book was still in the Father's hand. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, that would mean, SOMEHOW God would have to show John that the vision he was seeing of the throne room was the throne room of the PAST, a time while Jesus was still under the earth.

Jesus was NOT SEEN in the throne room because at that time He was under the earth. The Holy Spirit was still there because Jesus had not ascended to send Him down. Jesus was NOT found worthy in that first search, because He had not yet risen from the dead (in the vision, not in reality).

But TIME PASSED in the vision, Jesus rose from the dead (prevailed) then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

WHEN did Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room, right after telling Mary not to touch him for He had not yet ascended? That would be around 32 AD. You were simply mistaken.

No one can find 2000 years in any of those verses. Jesus has not held that book for 2000 years. The intent of scripture is that Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended and began right then opening seals.

Seal 1: the CHURCH (righteous) taking the gospel to the world.

Seals 2, 3, 4: to represent the DEVIL trying to stop the church. God has allowed him to use wars, famines, and pestilences, and death by these three, plus wild beasts.

Seal 5, the first hint of a long time of waiting. It is for the church age martyrs. They are told they have to wait for the time of judgment until the FINAL church age martyr.

Just so you know, the church has been waiting now at that 5th seal for around 2000 years. 

The 6th seal begins judgment and wrath. We are NOT THERE yet. Paul wrote that the Day of the Lord would begin right after the rapture of the church. The rapture has not happened yet. We are waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. VERY SOON now, Jesus will come for His church, causing a certain martyr to be that FINAL 

The Bible does show us Jesus in the throne room of God.  The question is asked, “Who is worthy?”

John is sad because no one is found worthy.

Then John is told not to be sad because The Lamb is there and found worthy to open the seals of the book.  The Lamb is Jesus.

What do you mean He was in the center of the earth?

He was right there, he came forward and took the book.

This is John’s vision of the scene in heaven, after the rapture.

Of course the rapture hasn’t happened yet today, but this is a vision of the future.

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, BibleWords said:

The Bible does show us Jesus in the throne room of God.  The question is asked, “Who is worthy?”

John is sad because no one is found worthy.

Then John is told not to be sad because The Lamb is there and found worthy to open the seals of the book.  The Lamb is Jesus.

What do you mean He was in the center of the earth?

He was right there, he came forward and took the book.

This is John’s vision of the scene in heaven, after the rapture.

Of course the rapture hasn’t happened yet today, but this is a vision of the future.

I agree, Jesus was seen, but that was in chapter 5 after He had risen from the dead. Go ahead—try and find Him in chapter 4. We have over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW Him there. Yet, when John saw the throne room in the vision, Jesus was not there.

Jesus asked me WHY He was not seen in the throne room when John looked. I heard His voice and I heard his words. I was in the spirit and could not think, but my spirit man said, "I cannot answer that question."

Then He asked me why He was found in that first search John watched that ended in failure. Again, I heard His voice and His words. And again my spirit man said that he could not answer that question.

From His words, we can know certain things: there was a search that ended in failure and there was a subsequent search where Jesus was found. Sorry, got to go.