Justified by Faith vs. Works or Faith and Works

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Faith only (Paul):

• Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom 3:28 KJV
• But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Rom 4:5 KJV
• Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal 2:16 KJV

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Faith and Works (Jesus/James/John/Peter/and the Reset of the Bible):

James:

• What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? - Jas 2:14 KJV
• Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - Jas 2:21-22, 24-26 KJV
• But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. - Jas 1:22-25 KJV

Jesus:

• Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive (Labor Fervently) to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.  - Luk 13:23-24 KJV
• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Mat 7:21 KJV
• If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - Jhn 14:15, 21 KJV

John:  

• Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. - Rev 14:12 KJV
• Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1Jo 3:7-10 KJV

Peter:

• Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. - Act 10:34-35 KJV

 

Thoughts?

Edited February 27, 2021 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Hopefully]

Here are my thoughts:

“God makes people right through their faith in Jesus Christ. He does this for all who believe in Christ. Everyone is the same. All have sinned and are not good enough to share God’s divine greatness. They are made right with God by his grace. This is a free gift. They are made right with God by being made free from sin through Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭

“So do we destroy the law by following the way of faith? Not at all! In fact, faith causes us to be what the law actually wants.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:31‬ ‭

“My brothers and sisters, God chose you to be free. But don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do what pleases your sinful selves. Instead, serve each other with love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭

 

[johnthebaptist]

9 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Faith only (Paul):

• Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom 3:28 KJV
• But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Rom 4:5 KJV
• Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal 2:16 KJV

-----

Faith and Works (Jesus/James/John/Peter/and the Reset of the Bible):

James:

• What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? - Jas 2:14 KJV
• Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - Jas 2:21-22, 24-26 KJV
• But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. - Jas 1:22-25 KJV

Jesus:

• Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive (Labor Fervently) to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.  - Luk 13:23-24 KJV
• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Mat 7:21 KJV
• If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - Jhn 14:15, 21 KJV

John:  

• Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. - Rev 14:12 KJV
• Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1Jo 3:7-10 KJV

Peter:

• Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. - Act 10:34-35 KJV

 

Thoughts?

People can get caught up in semantics. We need both to have faith and carry out the Lord's will (works).

[Brother Duke]

I think the Old Testament says it best.

Paul goes into great detail on how when we have God's Spirit we are not under the law of sin and death but we are under the law of the Spirit.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This hearkens back to the OT Ezekiel 36:27.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

We no longer have to incorrectly interpret the law of God on our own but now have the Spirit of God to guide us.

Jesus makes this clear in John 14:17

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

As Ezekiel says we will do God's instructions.  We are not saved by works but those that are saved and have God's Spirit will follow his instructions.

 

 

[Unit 11]

There's one thing I'd like to deal with.

We all know the Great Commission. This was particularly emphasized to me once at a Bible study, where the leader had someone read Luke 12:47: 

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

It's part of a larger passage; we didn't discuss the context. What he was talking about was witnessing. The meaning was plain--if you're not doing your part witnessing, you're not saved. 

Of course I've read and heard that we're saved by faith, faith plus nothing, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. But I also hear, read etc., as I'm sure you all have, that we're commanded to witness. Nobody actually comes out and says it's a requirement for eternal salvation, but we're commanded to do it, each and every one of us, no ifs, ands or buts, no excuses. It sounds as if the penalty for neglecting such a "duty" (as Charles Finney put it) must be pretty severe. Like, condemnation to hell?

If this be the case, then I need to know two things.

1. How do we know when we've witnessed enough? Per month, week, day, hour? Or is asking this question out of line, because it shows we don't care about the lost--we only want to do the required amount and no more?

2. If we've done other works, say, sharing with the less fortunate, playing fair with others, never profiting unjustly at someone else's expense, minding the Golden Rule etc.--but we're not witnessing--does that invalidate all the good works we have done? 

I hope I haven't kicked a hornet's nest with this. But I really would like to know.

 

[Brother Duke]

Mat 25:26 "But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.

[Justin Adams]

15 minutes ago, Unit 11 said:

I hope I haven't kicked a hornet's nest with this. But I really would like to know.

Be ready, in season and out of season, to witness to the hope that lies within you.

No magic pill. No magic performance. No nothing except Belief and Loyalty. Then opportunities will present.

There was nothing you could do morally to obtain Salvation and therefore there is nothing you may do immorally that will UN-save you.

Just Believe and do not waver.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

There's one thing I'd like to deal with.

We all know the Great Commission. This was particularly emphasized to me once at a Bible study, where the leader had someone read Luke 12:47: 

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

It's part of a larger passage; we didn't discuss the context. What he was talking about was witnessing. The meaning was plain--if you're not doing your part witnessing, you're not saved. 

Of course I've read and heard that we're saved by faith, faith plus nothing, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. But I also hear, read etc., as I'm sure you all have, that we're commanded to witness. Nobody actually comes out and says it's a requirement for eternal salvation, but we're commanded to do it, each and every one of us, no ifs, ands or buts, no excuses. It sounds as if the penalty for neglecting such a "duty" (as Charles Finney put it) must be pretty severe. Like, condemnation to hell?

If this be the case, then I need to know two things.

1. How do we know when we've witnessed enough? Per month, week, day, hour? Or is asking this question out of line, because it shows we don't care about the lost--we only want to do the required amount and no more?

2. If we've done other works, say, sharing with the less fortunate, playing fair with others, never profiting unjustly at someone else's expense, minding the Golden Rule etc.--but we're not witnessing--does that invalidate all the good works we have done? 

I hope I haven't kicked a hornet's nest with this. But I really would like to know.

 

Brother you asked how do we know:

And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments...He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. - 1Jo 2:3-6 KJV

This lines up with what Messiah taught:

• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Mat 7:21 KJV
• If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - Jhn 14:15, 21 KJV

Messiah said if you really love me then you will also obey my commands then he will manifest himself to you and you will know.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Riverwalker]

16 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Faith only (Paul):

• Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom 3:28 KJV
• But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Rom 4:5 KJV
• Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal 2:16 KJV

-----

Faith and Works (Jesus/James/John/Peter/and the Reset of the Bible):

James:

• What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? - Jas 2:14 KJV
• Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - Jas 2:21-22, 24-26 KJV
• But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. - Jas 1:22-25 KJV

Jesus:

• Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive (Labor Fervently) to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.  - Luk 13:23-24 KJV
• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Mat 7:21 KJV
• If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - Jhn 14:15, 21 KJV

John:  

• Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. - Rev 14:12 KJV
• Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1Jo 3:7-10 KJV

Peter:

• Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. - Act 10:34-35 KJV

 

Thoughts?

You misrepresented the whole thing

Ephesians 2:. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Every bible writer agrees, we are saved by grace through faith, not of good works, but TO good works. James is saying if you say your saved, but nothing in your life shows, your faith is dead and so are you.

Salvation is not earned by us, it was earned by Jesus on the cross. We can do nothing to be be more deserving of his Grace. When you are (truly) saved, your life is changed, you are made new and you have salvation. Its already given to you. We do not do works, out of requirement, we do them because it pleases the Lord and it blesses us

[Marathoner]

I thought it best to refrain from commenting on this matter but am persuaded otherwise. As a recipient of God's gift of faith and His grace as revealed in Jesus Christ, I testify that I did nothing to merit the mercy of the Lord. Our salvation in the Son of God has nothing to do with effort on our part. This is the work of God, not us. 

The notion that we prove our faith in the Lord by works is fraught with peril and in my estimation, is not what the apostle James expounded upon in his letter. This is difficult to articulate but I'll do my best:

We are saved by grace through faith which is the gift of God; we are lifted up into Christ Jesus and thus hidden in Him; and every one of us, as it pleases the Lord, have been ordained by Him to walk in works specific to our calling in Christ. The Lord determines these works and by His will and purpose, equips us to walk in them (carry them out). His Spirit is with us always and salvation means we belong to the Lord Most High, not to this world. God declares us as the children of His promise and joint heirs of our Father's kingdom without end. 

I love saying (and writing) this: Who among the angels has the Lord granted to sit with Him upon His throne? 

I never knew joy until the Lord called me forth. I didn't know those works God ordained for me to walk in until the time and season arrived. Until the proper time He prepared me for these works through suffering and trial. 

Yes, we can say faith without works is dead but it is worth emphasizing that this faith is given to us by God Himself. 30 years ago no one could have known the work of the Lord in me unless God saw fit to reveal this to them. Therefore we should temper how we understand matters of faith and works by remembering the scripture, 

"There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every matter under heaven..." (Ecclesiastes 3:1 NASB)