Futurism

[David1701]

31 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I disagree.  This is prophecy.

In Revelation chapters 1 through 3 Christ took the apostle John, in the spirit, 2000 years into the future to this 21st. century, and showed him what is/will be happening on EARTH and in the seven "END of TIME" churches on the day of the Lord, the first day of the Millennium, a time even yet future, but very, very near since we are already 60+ years into the "Fig Tree" generation.

 

Oh boy!

Rev. 1-3 was written to seven, literal churches, in Asia, that were around at that time.  The details even accord with specific, historical facts pertaining to those 1st C. churches.  One example is that Laodicea had no clean water of its own, so its water came by aquaduct and, by the time it arrived, it was lukewarm and horrible.  Laodicea was also famous for its healing ointments, so the Lord uses an analogy with that as well.  There are such historical details for all the churches in Rev. 1-3.

 

[Justin Adams]

20 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Amen...I think the need to know the future is of our flesh...curiosity and control (knowledge is power) as well as enjoying getting all excited.

If i can try to explain this a little bit,  I gather the use of the term "Futurists" doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing coming in the future per se, but it is a convenient handle to call a certain way of looking at those scriptures that is unbalanced and unspiritual and ignores a lot that should not be ignored.  It threw me too at first.

If you read the OP conglomeration of information, it may yield a clue as to why it was posted. So many times I have heard of this rapture and dispensational stuff and the panacea it appears to provide. Yet it seems so few have studied and understand its roots and causes. It feeds off the 'need to know' emotion and then provides seeming steps to 'feel' safer. These steps might be a faulty belief system for convenience sake coupled with an acceptance of 'doctrines' we do not fully understand. 

Some is disinformation on a grand scale and sadly so many have their eschatology seemingly linked to their salvific understandings. This was my reason for the posting. To get us to rethink, and think well. Possibly we can steer clear of those things we 'think' we know that may be harmful and untruthful. It might be perhaps second-hand preacher-speak 'facts' that we unconsciously 'took on board' without considering them properly using scriptures to assess them.

I sometimes see that people use the Holy Spirit to back their claims. That may be so, but remember that God also gave us logic and minds to use normally without going into some kind of trance. We need to use all the tools the Father gave us.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

Organized people who are also attempting to responsibly study the Bible like to have a very unified cohesive Christian world view as it pertains to the future. We are trained from  a very young age to anticipate the future in some way. When will I get to middle school? When will I graduate High school? I can't wait until college or tech school is over etc. Even you youngest will say, " Are we there yet?" 

The Bible is a progressive book that just happens to often have many facts out of chronological order. It doesn't help that some people have taken it upon themselves to 'assist' us in determining what the order should be by adding their own views to it with no scriptural foundations.

Much of this ties into the desire to know what comes next, because if we can determine this we can then know what will come after it, then hopefully determine an overview of the timeline we are presently on with respect to biblical prophecy.. The idea that most of the prophecy has already happened naturally throws a problem to those of us who presently see things happening all around us in alignment with scripture to indicate other events are on the horizon. We can't discount anything. God is just the sort to do something in a way those less vigilant would be less likely to expect. 

Nothing against Justin, but I think the very term Futurism throws us off the path because it is associated with an extreme view when really it's a pin on term that distracts us from the reality of what is actually going to happen. IOW rather than going around calling each other extremists using pin on catch terms, type would be better served  producing the actuality of the events. 

Admittedly there is some room for flexibility. I think establishing a timeline is very important for us to measure where we are 'now'. If you don't know where you are, how can you possibly anticipate in any way what comes next? I believe this is something we each need to study for ourselves. If we haven't entirely arrived at a few concrete conclusions, just know this- WHERE YOU ARE IS IN CHRIST. No matter where that is. This means by extension, It's all going to eventually be ok.

Here is an end times sequence of events, supported by many scriptures:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a massive explosion on the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3

 It will be the Sixth Seal event, Revelation 6:12-17, of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18  It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

      The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.  Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31

The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and His resurrected saints.                                             

 The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast    into the lake of fire.  Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth for Eternity.  Daniel 7:9-10,    Revelation chapters 20:11-15 & 21:1-7

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Oh boy!

Rev. 1-3 was written to seven, literal churches, in Asia, that were around at that time.  The details even accord with specific, historical facts pertaining to those 1st C. churches.  One example is that Laodicea had no clean water of its own, so its water came by aquaduct and, by the time it arrived, it was lukewarm and horrible.  Laodicea was also famous for its healing ointments, so the Lord uses an analogy with that as well.  There are such historical details for all the churches in Rev. 1-3.

 

David, I am sorry for wanting to respond..... but perhaps this is just a need for clarification for me .... I certainly understand and agree that the 7 churches in Revelation represented literal churches but are you saying the characteristics  / attributes / warnings / etc., from God to those 7 do not also have a spiritual / symbolic message to us as well?  In other words, do you think we are now in the church of Laodicea or 7th church period?

Thanks so much, Charlie

[Marathoner]

We write according to that crucible where the Almighty shapes us. There's a reason why I repeat the following verses of scripture often.

What has been is what will be,
    and what has been done is what will be done,
    and there is nothing new under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 1:9 ESV)

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
(Ecclesiastes 3:1 ESV)

The falling away commenced in the Garden;
The falling away unfolded when Israel fashioned the golden calf and worshiped it;
The falling away occurred in that evil generation who would never pass into the Lord's rest;
The falling away was realized when the people did what was right in their own eyes;
And in these last days, the falling away was at work during the apostle Paul's day. It is happening now. 


Just the same,

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8 ESV)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8 ESV)

And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, 
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
    who was and is and is to come!”
(Revelation 4:8 ESV)

There's nothing new under the sun. There have been wars and rumors of wars, plagues, earthquakes, and tribulation the likes of which some have never witnessed, let alone imagined. The earth was red with blood in ancient times just as it runs red with blood today... and there is nothing new under the sun.

I've experienced great tribulation in this world and I'm not the only one by any means. I've been cast out to wander without a place to rest my head; I've witnessed great evil in desolate places; I deemed my own life a forsaken thing for the sake of another; and I paid dearly on account of these things for the Lord, in His wisdom and mercy, required everything of me. This was my acceptable sacrifice, that offering which Christ declared in His words of old:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26-33 ESV)

He requires the same of us all, friends. According to that crucible where the Lord shapes me, I released futurism and the notion that tribulation is an event in our future. Surely it is not, according to the words of Paul and Barnabas.

When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:21-22 ESV)

Edited April 12, 2021 by Marathoner

[Justin Adams]

20 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Does scripture state somewhere those are "types of churches," or is that position garnered from some extra-biblical source? If the latter, then would you mind letting us know from whence that statement came? 

It does not. That is pulpit speak and I have heard it before. If the Pandemic has done one thing for all of us, it has caused us to think for ourselves just a little and not check our brains in at the (closed) church door. Pastors have a difficult life and I would be afraid to be one. They often get weekly 'head office' notes and preach accordingly. So we have to be careful about using a preacher's 'analogy' too deeply and always we must remember they are NOT inspired as the scripture writers were.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Marathoner]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Does scripture state somewhere those are "types of churches," or is that position garnered from some extra-biblical source? If the latter, then would you mind letting us know from whence that statement came? 

The "latter days" began in the first century. Jesus, James, John, Paul, and Peter all spoke/wrote to that fact. 

This is precisely where His Spirit led me. While it's true that I wasn't subject to futurist indoctrination to the extent that others have experienced, I nevertheless held to certain ideals common to futurist belief. I picked them up along the way... I haven't existed in a vacuum, you know.   

For example, the so-called church ages and the notion that each church addressed in the book of Revelation typify ages of His Church throughout time. I earnestly searched the scriptures and found no basis for such an extrapolation. The source? Futurist dialectic over the centuries. 

I considered the Third Temple and discovered that this temple is us, living stones chosen by God. This is the temple Jesus Christ raised to the glory of our Father in heaven, the resting place of the Almighty. Did the Lord raise children of Abraham from those stones? Yes, He did. 

The history of man on this earth is a tale of great tribulation, calamity, and all manner of evil under the sun. "There is nothing new under the sun," the Lord's refutation that we live in exceptional times. The exception (if you will) is when the Lord Himself returns which I understand as the day of the Lord. The prophets of old spoke of this just as they spoke of the Word made flesh, and how the Lord doesn't rest in stone. 

It was a process to be sure. Ah, but abandoning futurism doesn't mean that there's nothing left to unfold. Not at all, because there's an appointed time for every matter under heaven, the Lord's promise of things to come. Don't we know that we shall judge angels?   

[Alive]

26 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thanks, but I was asking the poster who asked the question, "Do you understand that these are the seven types of churches...?" for that poster's answer(s). I know how I would answer that question. I don't know how @SONshine answers that question. He has a computer and apparently knows how to use an internet discussion board so I assume he can explain his own claims. Might be helpful for all if we could read him doing so .  

????? No one asked for "debate." I asked if ""these are the seven types of churches" is something scripture itself states or if that originates elsewhere and if so then where. 

 

No debate requested or desired. If debate isn't wanted then don't debate. Just answer the question asked:  Where does scripture state the "seven churches" passage is about types of churches, and if it does not itself do so then from whence did that inquiry come; what's the source?

 

No debate required. 

 

 

.

SONshine does not want to discuss this further with you. Please don't continue.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

Satan is the power behind the Son of Perdition; but, the SoP himself is a man.  The first so-named was Judas Iscariot and the other is the anti-Christ (the office of Pope).  The Pope sits in the temple of God (the professing Church) making out that he has MORE authority than God.  He claims that he has the authority to change times, seasons and what the Bible teaches.

I don't disagree that the pope is antichrist, but I hearken to John's words when I consider antichrist.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (1 John 4:1-3 ESV)

So the spirit of antichrist was already present in the world before the popes of Rome came to be; history reveals that Gnostics infiltrating the flock are these antichrists whom John refers to. They were at work in his day.

In the greater view, those Gnostics were agents of a system which the pope of Rome is also representative: Babylon, the mother of abomination on earth. Ah, but not just Gnosticism or Catholicism... Islam, Buddhism, and all systems of idolatry including the worship of mammon (wealth). I don't limit my view to the pope because the Eastern patriarchs are popes in their own right, changing times and supplanting the authority of God by fiat. For example, any who repudiate the reverence of icons are anathema according to their traditions. 

Icons.. idols... idolatry... all the same. 

[leah777]

edited to respect @SONshine wishes. Peace and blessings to you

Edited April 12, 2021 by leah777