Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

On 5/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, not an echo said:

What's up with that is that I, like you, no longer subscribe to the "classic pretrib" view.  My subscription to that view ran out long ago.  I still hold to the bottom line of that view (imminence), I just disagree with how all the others that hold to it arrive at it.

Concerning your second sentence, my position, according to what will harmonize with all of Scripture, is that Christ can return for the rapture at any time.  I'm not seeing anything concerning a sign that we are to be looking for, except for the event of the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which is the imminent event.  This will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, when I say that Christ's return for the rapture is imminent, or the opening of the 6th Seal is imminent, I am meaning the same thing.

A little note concerning signs:  I would like to point out that I do see the ongoing fulfillment of the portion of Jesus' discourse that parallels the first four seals, as a sign that has spanned some 2000 years---a sign that Jesus Christ sure knew what He was talking about.

You say "imminence is a farce."  I'm thinking, if Jesus comes now, He will certainly come "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44).  I'm suddenly reminded of John's words in I John 2:

 28  And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Be careful Diaste.

I am careful. Jesus return will not be imminent as put forth by, whomever. That moment does not come as a thief to us, only to those in darkness does it come suddenly and unexpectedly, as a thief in the night.

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." 1 Thess 5

No matter the take on the coming of Jesus, He does not come as a thief to us.

On 5/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, not an echo said:

About forgot.  With the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), there is going to be "a great sound of a trumpet," at which time "He shall send His angels...and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (Matt. 24:31).  This trumpet, of which Jesus is here referring, is what Paul referred to as "The Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16).  The gathering together by the angels, of which Jesus speaks, connects with what Paul referred to as being "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17).  You better know, Christ's angels can get it done!

You need to add 1 Cor 15:51 in your mix. Yes, it's the trump of God. Yes, it's the sound of a great trumpet. Yes, it's also the last trump. And there is only one of those in all scripture directly connected to the gathering and the return of Jesus; the 7th trump of Revelation. 

[Diaste]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Where do you get that?  I'm sorry, but it looks like to me that your statement is in serious conflict with Scripture.  Well, I've got to back up just a bit and say that I'm sorry for saying "I'm sorry"

Sorry about what?

No matter.

No conflict. John does not give us language that tells us the 7 angels given 7 trumps and prepared to sound the trumps must of demand follow the 7th seal chronologically. 

In the examples in the earlier post I pointed out language John employs to show cause and effect, e.g., a seal opens and conditions occur and, the chronological order of the opening of the seals. This same concept does not exist in Rev 8:1-2

John does not say when the angels are given the trumps, just that they are given trumps. That John records this at this point in the book does not necessarily show cause and effect since the wording isn't there. 

I'll grant it could be the case but the text doesn't prove it in Rev 8:1-2.

On 5/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, not an echo said:

I'm figuring that it was just an oversight, but, did you intentionally leave out, "1And when he had opened the seventh seal," (Rev. 8), after "12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal," above?

I just thought the example of Rev 6 and the obvious chronology would be evident in the wording and language in contrast to Rev 8:1-2 where chronological language is nonexistent

On 5/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, is this one of them arguments from silence that you sometimes talk about?

To say the 7 angels given the 7 trumps can only ever follow the 7th seal is an argument from silence. The text doesn't say so, it's not a cause and effect. It could be, but the text is silent here. We have to look for other clues for the chronology.

On 5/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph and last sentence, are you not thinking that it was after this (the opening of the 7th Seal and the silence) that John saw the seven angels with the seven trumpets? 

If the words 'after this' appeared in the text that's different. Those words do not appear in Rev 8:1-2. John uses them in other places and in Rev 8:1-2 it's a conspicuous absence.

On 5/6/2021 at 11:19 AM, not an echo said:

 

If not, what would you think that John saw after this silence?  I mean, where does his narrative pick back up with what happened after the silence following the opening of the 7th Seal?

Good question. I'll have to look a bit closer at this. I don't have a ready alternative. I have long thought wrath begins here and the moment of silence is reverence and sorrow for what is about to occur as the bowls are now to be  poured out. Don't have a scriptural argument for it right now.

 

 

[not an echo]

On 5/4/2021 at 4:58 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/3/2021 at 1:22 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, I am going to reply from the understanding that it is the first four seals that you are talking about "paralleling 2000 years."  I believe we are in agreement that the first four seals parallel the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (as is commonly accepted).  We are just not in agreement as to when what Jesus said would happen would happen (or begin to happen).

So, I want to ask you Diaste, those 2nd person pronouns Jesus uses when He is speaking to His disciples, what do you make of them?  Like, from Matthew 24:

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

and...

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled...

and...

 9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:  and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

 

As if to say Jesus was only speaking to the audience present and no one else? And therefore by arbitrary division of Matt 24 Jesus was speaking to 70 AD or the Ascension, or some other moment, as the beginning of the last week? Or that Matt 24 doesn't parallel Rev 6 or Dan 9 in it's information, timing and layout and then the seals can begin anytime? 

And isn't my first question setting up a conflict with many such 2nd person pronouns used throughout the NT?  Why would it be that we can lay claim to 2nd person pronouns over the course over 2000 years but in select parts Matt 24 we shun them?

If this is the case then only those who were present at the time will be a apart of the coming of the Son of Man:

"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it." 

The Lesson of the Fig Tree:

Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

And we don't need to pay attention to this either:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come"

Then it must have all happened in the sight and life span of those present. This means Jesus must have already returned.

So then what of all the ignorance of the 2nd person pronouns used by Paul in the Epistles? Those must be for only the present audience. Why do we even have the bible then? 

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise."

The above from Galatians 3 is then for whom? Can't be for us, we weren't there.

And for whom is this?

"“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”"

Hello Diaste,

I must say, I believe you have utterly and absolutely, altogether, and without a doubt, missed my point by a country mile. 

The thing I wanted to bring out concerning the 2nd person pronouns (you, ye, and your) that Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse is the problem this presents for your interpretations.  You have continued to reject what I have put forth concerning Jesus' words being continually fulfilled over the course of the 20 centuries that have transpired since He spoke the words.  So, I had asked you, "Those 2nd person pronouns Jesus uses when He is speaking to His disciples, what do you make of them?"  If I am talking to you Diaste, I'm certainly not excluding you.  Yet, you have maintained that everything Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse is for "the terminal generation."  Don't you realize that when you say that, you just excluded it from having any real relevance to the disciples?  He was talking to His disciples, and He was talking to them about things that were going to happen to them, and He was also talking to them about things that we know transcended their time.  So, what do we do with all the 2nd person pronouns?  I don't know what you are going to do with them.  But, for me, it is quite easy.

I gave you this hint:  "I will be making a parallel that I believe any American will be able to relate to."  Realize, I'm probably not going to be able to give the time to this that I would like, but I'm going to trust that you will catch enough to get the gist of it:

If Jesus had been talking to those first Europeans seeking religious freedom, those who were wanting to make the voyage across the Atlantic to the Americas, He could have told them many things using 2nd person pronouns, concerning things that both they and their like minded progeny would experience.  He could have said, "You are going to be quite surprised about this ocean you are going to cross, its vastness and its dangers.  You will need to keep going, come what may, in the direction of the going down of the sun.  And, when you have continued to do that for several weeks, the next time you see land, that will be the Americas.  You are going to a land unmolested, with purple mountains and amber waves of grain.  It will be called, 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.'  But, it will not be a land free of many trials and tribulations.  There will be natural disasters and disease outbreaks in that land.  Some of you will be killed by the natives there, and some, even by your own countrymen.  Yet, that land and your experience(s) there will inspire many of you to write songs and books of it.  You will come to be considered the most fortunate people in the world.  Just preceding your independence as a sovereign nation, there will be a war.  There will also be a war between those of you who settle in the north of that land, and those of you who settle in the south.  There will be wars and talk of wars.  But, always take hope.  Whenever you see the rockets' red glare and the bombs bursting in air, there will be a sign you can look for that will be evidence that victory is yet possible.  Some of you will continue westward, until you reach another ocean, which will mark the other boundary of your new world, a land that spreads over 1000 miles, bounded on the east and west by oceans.  Yours will become the most powerful of all nations, ultimately to be made up of 50 nation equivalents.  A place where 'In God We Trust' will adorn your currency, from the smallest cent to the biggest bill.  A place where your banner will represent to the world a land where liberty and justice for all is embraced.  And, and..."

If Jesus had been addressing all of the first pilgrims, they say that one of them didn't even make it to the "Land Ho!"  More than half died the first winter.  But, they were all to be Americans, in a lot of people's minds, the first.  And, Jesus' discourse would have been for all of them and us, and more directly relevant for those of us who would experience the specifics of this or that of which He spoke.

I submit that Jesus' discourse to His first disciples was likewise for all who would become His disciples, and more directly relevant for those of us who experience the specifics of this or that of which He spoke.  When I read the Olivet Discourse, and especially the opening section, which dovetails with the first four seals, the above reflects how the wheels of my mind turn.

Now, I don't know how the wheels of your mind turn in regard to the 2nd person pronouns of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, but, I would sure like to know.

Edited May 10, 2021 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 5/4/2021 at 5:31 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/3/2021 at 9:24 PM, not an echo said:

One last thing before I turn in for the night.  Concerning the first sentence of your first paragraph, I believe that The Revelation is laid out in a wonderfully Divine chronological order, and much more strict in its chronology than the world of scholarship has yet discovered.  And listen, I'm not necessarily down on scholarship.  God just never made that the key to discovering the truths of Scripture.  Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, I agree.  Concerning the third sentence of your first paragraph, I again agree---as long as it is understood that this is the case with the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet. 

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

For example, it is quite evident that the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail.  No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open."  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

                            https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1342555597_picture1blackonwhite.png.ed6fcc3375d47cb740f55d508dca021a.png

After chapter 10, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to follow the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

                                 https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/1583705344_picture2blackonwhite.png.b0229e9b0cd9c042fb679de3edcfa72c.png

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible.

                                                                                  https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/288736274_picture3blackonwhite.png.1582c3434a27df577922d18fc38ce7b6.png

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and 2 chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.

I hope you will really consider this closely Diaste.  It is going to be found to hold, and it is a big key to understanding The Revelation.  I had felt that you were probably aware of my thread concerning this, but with your words concerning "overlap" in the second and third paragraph of your post, I guess not.  Of course there is overlap , but with a logical chronological progression.  I copied and pasted the biggest part of the above from my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation.  Now I'm going to go grab the link to it.  After that, I'm gonna do a scan and see if you ever posted anything there.  Then, finally, I'm gonna turn in for the night, unless the Trump of God sounds first.  In that case, I'll never have to concern myself with turning in for the night again...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/)

Yes, I have said so numerous times. I see a concurrent successive layout and everything written in Rev is under the umbrella of the seals e.g.; the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in successive order. I don't think one can ignore this knowing the 7th Trump is the last trump in a series at the end of the age in the context of Jesus' return, and spoken of by Paul as the harbinger of the gathering. 

We can go on and on about whether the trump of God or the last trump is the same as the 7th trump or not, but there isn't a viable alternative for the last trump, and the trump of God, as one and the same as the 7th trump of Revelation.

There is no where else in the halls of holy writ where any such trump appears in the context of the end of the age, Jesus' return, and the gathering, except for the 7th trump of Revelation. 

This idea makes perfect sense knowing we are gathered at the last trump and that Jesus' return is at the 6th seal. This conforms to what is said about the order of events in Matt 24 as well: the signs appear, Jesus appears, the nations mourn, the angels are sent with a trumpet call, the elect are gathered.

So tell me...Where else do we see a series of trumps associated with Jesus' return, the gathering and the end of the age?

I believe that we would all acknowledge that the thing of whether the Last Trump and the Trump of God is the 7th Trumpet is something that must be seriously considered.  And, on the surface, because the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet in the series of seven trumpets that John saw, it is an easy thing for many to accept this as the Trump of God or Last Trump spoken of by Paul.  And, for me, I would have been fine with this long ago, except for other things we find in Scripture.  For me, it has become like the proverbial "first impression" that doesn't hold up under closer examination.  Whatever is accepted, an acknowledgement needs to be made that there are at least equally valid reasons for believing that the 7th Trumpet is not the Trump of God or Last Trump of which Paul speaks.  The closer I have looked at it, the more it becomes apparent that it is not.

Let me say it this way Diaste:  It is not that I am so against what you are seeing, or that I think it is foolish.  It is just that I am so convinced of what I am seeing.  And for me, a lot comes together much better when it is understood that there is going to be the Last Trump, which is the Trump of God, then later, there is going to be the 7th Trumpet, which is merely the last in a series of seven trumpets.  The former will be the Last Trump calling an assembly.  The latter will be the 7th Trumpet sounding an alarm.  The former will mark the event of the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  The latter will herald a period of time that will continue through the Last Judgment.

Borrowing from your being a stickler to the details of what the Bible does and does not explicitly say, I am fine with that, but, I am not sure you are going to be.  Note that "the 7th Trumpet" is never referred to as "the Last Trump" nor "the Trump of God."  That is merely an interpretive distinction, using a numeric element as the aggregate for a foundation, which is then built upon.  A problem is, the aggregate is like sand, without a binder.  It won't hold together.

I'm getting ready for my afternoon bus route, so, I've got to watch my time, but, I hope to be back tonight.  In the mean time, here are five huge problems that immediately come to my mind, that I see with your position:

1. It throws the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation into disarray and obscurity.
2. It essentially, if not altogether, conflates the event of Christ's Sign Appearance with the event of His Second Advent.
3. It reduces any escape to a level of being essentially nil, as no real escape can then be pointed to until Christ's Second Advent.
4. It obscures Jesus' teaching "in such an hour as ye think not" into a scenario where that just the opposite becomes so.
5. It renders last days scoffer's questioning of His coming, on the basis of "all things" remaining the same, to the level of absurd.

Got to go, or them kids are gonna be upset with me...

Edited March 18, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

I believe that we would all acknowledge that the thing of whether the Last Trump and the Trump of God is the 7th Trumpet is something that must be seriously considered.  And, on the surface, because the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet in the series of seven trumpets that John saw, it is an easy thing for many to accept this as the Trump of God or Last Trump spoken of by Paul.  And, for me, I would have been fine with this long ago, except for other things we find in Scripture.  For me, it has become like the proverbial "first impression" that doesn't hold up under closer examination.  Whatever is accepted, an acknowledgement needs to be made that there are at least equally valid reasons for believing that the 7th Trumpet is not the Trump of God or Last Trump of which Paul speaks.  The closer I have looked at it, the more it becomes apparent that it is not.

Valid reasons based on scriptural maxims as applied to eschatology? Can you list the references?

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Let me say it this way Diaste:  It is not that I am so against what you are seeing, or that I think it is foolish.  It is just that I am so convinced of what I am seeing.  And for me, a lot comes together much better when it is understood that there is going to be the Last Trump, which is the Trump of God, then later, there is going to be the 7th Trumpet, which is merely the last in a series of seven trumpets.  The former will be the Last Trump calling an assembly.  The latter will be the 7th Trumpet sounding an alarm.  The former will mark the event of the resurrection and the rapture of the Church.  The latter will herald a period of time that will continue through the Last Judgment.

Yes. I have heard this before. It's a valid proposition but seemingly unsupported. In Matt 24, 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are described the same in the Greek:  4536 sálpigks – "properly, a war-trumpet" (WS, 797) that boldly announces God's victory (the vanquishing of His enemies)

In Rev 11 we see the Victory at the 7th trump:

"The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

No matter the name of the trump the concept remains the same; Victory. Beyond the logical steps of arriving at the understanding the last trump, great sound of a trumpet, the trump of God, are one and the same the concept of them is an undeniable unifying force...Victory.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Borrowing from your being a stickler to the details of what the Bible does and does not explicitly say, I am fine with that, but, I am not sure you are going to be.  Note that "the 7th Trumpet" is never referred to as "the Last Trump" nor "the Trump of God."  That is merely an interpretive distinction, using a numeric element as the aggregate for a foundation, which is then built upon.  A problem is, the aggregate is like sand, without a binder.  It won't hold together.

And? The simplest solution tends to be the best and most accurate. Adding trumps and redefining terms is engaging in unjustified liberties. Each time great sound of a trump, the last trump, the trump of God appears in scripture it is always associated with the coming of Jesus and the Gathering. I'm sure I have pointed that out that fact in the past. It's not merely a numeric element as that only appears in Rev, it's as much or more the association of earth shaking events heralded by a trump that seals the deal. 

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm getting ready for my afternoon bus route, so, I've got to watch my time, but, I hope to be back tonight.  In the mean time, here are five huge problems that immediately come to my mind, that I see with your position:

1. It throws the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation into disarray and obscurity.
2. It essentially, if not altogether, conflates the event of Christ's Sign Appearance with the event of His Second Coming.
3. It reduces any escape to a level of being essentially nil, as no real escape can then be pointed to until Christ's Second Coming.
4. It obscures Jesus' teaching "in such an hour as ye think not" into a scenario where that just the opposite becomes so.
5. It renders last days scoffer's questioning of His coming, on the basis of "all things" remaining the same, to the level of absurd.

Got to go, or them kids are gonna be upset with me...

Depends on what a person thinks the chronology may or may not be, I suppose. Rev is not, NOT, a strict chronology.

Indeed, the sign of His coming and His appearance are not just connected but are destined for the same time/space moment.

"30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

Deny it if you like. 

The third point is classic dispensational premillennialist pretrib doctrine. It's a poorly conceived stroke of intellectual dishonesty turning truth into a lie. The escape is from the lake of fire and eternal death, not earthly troubles. Our escape is from eternal torment in unquenchable flame, not from the death of the flesh. Therefore our escape is not from the coming tribulations but eternal judgment.

We are saved from God's wrath and we escape His fierce anger. Facing the beast is our testimony in Jesus and the power of the Spirit.

Point 4 is in the same vein. It's not proof it's rhetoric. We don't know the day or the hour. The days in which we battle the beast are cut short. You keep thinking in terms of schedules on calendars. Jesus coming is based on when our Father says it's time. Even if Jesus coming is post trib the GT does not run the full length of the week. This is another pretrib mistake, calling the final 7 years, The Tribulation period. It's not. GT only begins at the A of D and is ended short of the week.

You keep saying you have a different view but foundationally build upon all the pretrib falsehoods.

I have no idea what you mean in point 5.

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I must say, I believe you have utterly and absolutely, altogether, and without a doubt, missed my point by a country mile. 

The thing I wanted to bring out concerning the 2nd person pronouns (you, ye, and your) that Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse is the problem this presents for your interpretations.  You have continued to reject what I have put forth concerning Jesus' words being continually fulfilled over the course of the 20 centuries that have transpired since He spoke the words.  So, I had asked you, "Those 2nd person pronouns Jesus uses when He is speaking to His disciples, what do you make of them?"  If I am talking to you Diaste, I'm certainly not excluding you.  Yet, you have maintained that everything Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse is for "the terminal generation."  Don't you realize that when you say that, you just excluded it from having any real relevance to the disciples?  He was talking to His disciples, and He was talking to them about things that were going to happen to them, and He was also talking to them about things that we know transcended their time.  So, what do we do with all the 2nd person pronouns?  I don't know what you are going to do with them.  But, for me, it is quite easy.

I gave you this hint:  "I will be making a parallel that I believe any American will be able to relate to."  Realize, I'm probably not going to be able to give the time to this that I would like, but I'm going to trust that you will catch enough to get the gist of it:

If Jesus had been talking to those first Europeans seeking religious freedom, those who were wanting to make the voyage across the Atlantic to the Americas, He could have told them many things using 2nd person pronouns, concerning things that both they and their like minded progeny would experience.  He could have said, "You are going to be quite surprised about this ocean you are going to cross, its vastness and its dangers.  You will need to keep going, come what may, in the direction of the going down of the sun.  And, when you have continued to do that for several weeks, the next time you see land, that will be the Americas.  You are going to a land unmolested, with purple mountains and amber waves of grain.  It will be called, 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.'  But, it will not be a land free of many trials and tribulations.  There will be natural disasters and disease outbreaks in that land.  Some of you will be killed by the natives there, and some, even by your own countrymen.  Yet, that land and your experience(s) there will inspire many of you to write songs and books of it.  You will come to be considered the most fortunate people in the world.  Just preceding your independence as a sovereign nation, there will be a war.  There will also be a war between those of you who settle in the north of that land, and those of you who settle in the south.  There will be wars and talk of wars.  But, always take hope.  Whenever you see the rockets' red glare and the bombs bursting in air, there will be a sign you can look for that will be evidence that victory is yet possible.  Some of you will continue westward, until you reach another ocean, which will mark the other boundary of your new world, a land that spreads over 1000 miles, bounded on the east and west by oceans.  Yours will become the most powerful of all nations, ultimately to be made up of 50 nation equivalents.  A place where 'In God We Trust' will adorn your currency, from the smallest cent to the biggest bill.  A place where your banner will represent to the world a land where liberty and justice for all is embraced.  And, and..."

If Jesus had been addressing all of the first pilgrims, they say that one of them didn't even make it to the "Land Ho!"  More than half died the first winter.  But, they were all to be Americans, in a lot of people's minds, the first.  And, Jesus' discourse would have been for all of them and us, and more directly relevant for those of us who would experience the specifics of this or that of which He spoke.

I submit that Jesus' discourse to His first disciples was likewise for all who would become His disciples, and more directly relevant for those of us who experience the specifics of this or that of which He spoke.  When I read the Olivet Discourse, and especially the opening section, which dovetails with the first four seals, the above reflects how the wheels of my mind turn.

Now, I don't know how the wheels of your mind turn in regard to the 2nd person pronouns of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, but, I would sure like to know.

It's not an apt comparison. I have never argued Jesus' words meant nothing to the disciples. What I propose is that the conditions you say were to exist from the moment Jesus spoke them had already existed for millennia before. In that case Jesus isn't a prophet but an historian. And the disciples didn't ask what the signs were going to be for their lives going forward, they asked about Jesus coming and the end of the age. I will never see that in the context of the 1st century nor will I ignore the context of the answer; which is the 2nd coming and the end.

And I didn't miss your point. I'm going to answer based on two factors when it comes to eschatology: God's eternal existence and His eternal promises to us. Temporal interpretations mean little. 

So then if the 2nd person pronoun was meant for those present what about ALL the 2nd person pronouns? Those must have been meant for the contemporary audience as well, as I stated in the previous reply. Or do we just cherry pick to prove our point?

The best solution is the context for the answer, the 2nd coming and the end of the age, and to assume the eternal implications of Jesus words and that 'you' is meant for the ones in the end of the age near to His return.

That certainly 'could' have been the disciples but since all of it didn't take place as spoken, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" in their entirety, then it was meant for the terminal generation; which ever generation that would turn out to be.

[not an echo]

On 5/5/2021 at 5:26 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/4/2021 at 1:48 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Maybe I can get in an installment this afternoon...

...Concerning your post as a whole, I don't understand why you would dismiss or overlook the possibility that "as they were" (Rev. 6:11) is merely an explanation to these martyred that more were going to face the same thing they had faced, the thing of being "slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Rev. 6:9).

I didn't overlook it. The language more than suggests it's the manner of death.

Rev 6

9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 

Here it's established for what reason the martyrs have died. It's common to all martyrs of the Lord they are killed for the Word and their testimony.

10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Maybe this is always the cry of the martyrs from the 1st to the very last martyr. I don't know that. I only am sure this is recorded here.

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

This makes a point that can't be denied. "the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed" is really verse 9 restated. It's the fellow servants and brothers killed for the same reason as the souls under the altar; the souls under the altar and the fellow servants and brothers are all the same family and are all killed for the same reason; the testimony they hold and the Word of God.

"just as they had been killed." So why this modifier? We already know they are going to be killed and for what reason. Verse 11 could have been written as,

"Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed."

And we would know the reason and that they were going to have to wait for a certain number of them to die for Jesus.

But then "just as they had been killed." is tacked on to the end of verse 11. If it's the death by reason it's oddly redundant as that already is clear from verse 9 and this from verse 11; "fellow servants, their brothers, were killed". Same family, same reason.  And it's more than the fact of the death as 'were killed' is the fact of martyrdom by reason. 

It's 'just as' or 'like as' as in manner and not fact. 

Further we see this. " and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,"

A specific manner of death for a specific reason. It's not a stretch to consider this is related to Rev 6:9-11 since it's all in the short time format of the end of the age.

Borrowing from the way you put it, the language more than suggests it's as I am interpreting it as well.  It shouldn't surprise us that determining the truth of the matter can often seem to be like something on a teeter.  I think of Eve.  She knew her angle on what God had said.  Then, she heard Satan's angle on what God had said.  Then, still in her uncorrupted state, she put what Satan said on the same level of what God had said, but gave Satan's angle on it the nod.  The rest, well, we all know the rest.

So, what do we do?  Eve did what she did as a pure, uncorrupted entity.  We, as corrupted entities, what do we do?  Not only must we study God's Word, we must seek the voice of His Spirit for guidance ALL THE WHILE realizing that Satan's got a little guidance for us as well.  Having said this, let me say that I see where you are coming from.  I believe you could probably say likewise to me.  So, who is right and who is wrong?  Maybe both the one way somewhat, maybe both the other way, but not entirely.  Interesting isn't it.  The discussions/debates will continue till Jesus comes.

Concerning the 5th Seal, I believe where the water meets the wheel is that you are seeing these martyrs as being martyrs of Daniel's 70th Week, and I am seeing them as being martyrs of the era of the past 2000 years.  If I am understanding you correctly, you are making a hard connection of this prophetic puzzle piece with the pieces having to do with Daniel's 70th Week martyrs based upon the "as they were" (Rev. 6:11) and their manner of martyrdom being that of being "beheaded" (Rev. 20:4).

The first snag I see with this, is the manner of martyrdom spoken of in the more immediate context of the 4th Seal.  With the opening of that seal, it reads that the manner is "with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:8).  Here we are shown different manners in which martyrdom will be effected, not just the manner of being beheaded.

Not that it manners so much here, but I grew up hearing this, that "It is the cause, not the death, that makes the martyr."  Now, perhaps the common denominator of beheading connects the martyrs of the 5th Seal and the Daniel's 70th Week martyrs, as you seem to be saying.  But, what of the varying means given in the preceding 4th Seal?

Another snag, that I really struggle with, is your believing that the 5th Seal martyrs are Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in the first place.  Whereas the first snag represents a conflict with the immediate context (that of the preceding 4th Seal), I guess you could say that the other snag is a conflict with the context of the Bible, borne out by the 6th Seal.  What do I mean?  If I have understood you correctly, we are in agreement that the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.  You just go on to join this seal with the 7th Trumpet and the end of Daniel's 70th Week.  Further, you are understanding the first five seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week.  Question:  If the 5th Seal martyrs are Daniel's 70th Week martyrs, why for their question, "How long...?"  Let me elaborate.

Diaste, if it is as you say, and we (you and I) end up being here during Daniel's 70th Week, we are going to be doing the math, don't you think?  I'm gonna promise you, if a world leader arises and confirms a 7 year covenant with Israel and dictates that we have to get a mark in our right hand or forehead, I am going to realize that I have been mistaken.  And next (or, pretty close to next), I am going to seek you out.  And next, I am going to seriously and humbly acknowledge to you that I was wrong.  And next, I am gonna ask you how things are shaping up by your math.  Now, if we end up being in the number of those martyred before the end of Daniel's 70th Week, so be it---I ain't gonna be taking no mark.  And I don't believe you will either.  But, something else we won't be doing---if we are in the number of those shown with the opening of the 5th Seal---is this:  We won't be asking, "How long?"  We will know that before we give our heads.

From another angle, if we (you and I) are in the number of the 5th Seal martyrs, we won't be seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12) any more.  Now, we walk by faith, not by sight.  But, that all changes when we cross over to the other side.

The question that just came to your mind for me was this:  Then, why are the 5th Seal martyrs asking, "How long?"  Because, these are martyrs of the time before Jesus comes for the rapture, before (pre) Daniel's 70th Week, before the time when all the math can be done, at a time like the present time, when, "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only" (Matt. 24:36).  Interestingly, in Mark's account of Jesus' discourse, we find that Jesus also said, "neither the Son" (13:32).  I seem to always struggle, trying to find a good stopping place.  For now, I must say, I believe the case has changed in respect to the Son.  I would suggest that it changed when God gave the Lamb the charge of the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Based partly upon what is said in Revelation 5, I believe it may have changed when...

 7  ...He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne.

 8  And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:  for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:  and we shall reign on the earth.

The Son, the Lamb of God, now has charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  And, when the 6th Seal is opened, which is the time of the rapture, IT WILL BE HIS CALL.  Well...He is God!!!  By the way, those that are singing the "new song" in verse 9 above, those are all the saved of all time from the time of the beginning up until the time of this ceremony in Heaven...from Adam through the martyred apostles.  When John was told, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1), that was just his invitation to be a part of the ceremony, during which he was also shown things "which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), from his perspective of time, I might add.

I just have to say it:  I have continued to like the way the pieces of this prophetic puzzle fall into place for my interpretations far better than what I have observed to be the case with the other popular interpretations.

Oh, by the way, Jesus may determine to open the 6th Seal at any time.  When He does, as Paul writes in I Thessalonians 4:

 16 ...the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I would just like to comfort everyone with these words---The Lamb may determine to open that 6th Seal, at which time that "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) will sound, at any time, perhaps even before I push Submit Repl...

Edited March 15, 2023 by not an echo

[The Light]

On 3/23/2021 at 8:10 PM, not an echo said:

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet? 

Hey Not an Echo,

Everyone is not in agreement that the "Trump of God" is the "Last Trump"

The Trump of God is the voice of God. Here are some examples:

Exodus 19

¹⁶ And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Rev 1

¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

As for the "last trump", ask any Jewish Rabbi, it is a specific trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It is the last trump in a series of 100 trumpet blasts blown on the feast.

As for the 7th trumpet blown by an angel, it has nothing to do with either the last trump or the trump of God. The 7th trump is a judgment trumpet.

The pretribulation rapture of the Church will likely occur at the trump of God on the Feast of Pentecost.

The pre wrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth will likely occur at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

[Diaste]

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

Borrowing from the way you put it, the language more than suggests it's as I am interpreting it as well.  It shouldn't surprise us that determining the truth of the matter can often seem to be like something on a teeter.  I think of Eve.  She knew her angle on what God had said.  Then, she heard Satan's angle on what God had said.  Then, still in her uncorrupted state, she put what Satan said on the same level of what God had said, but gave Satan's angle on it the nod.  The rest, well, we all know the rest.

Yeah. A personal view based on desire of the flesh, and it was wrongest wrong of all wrongs and led to the destruction of the world. 

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

So, what do we do?  Eve did what she did as a pure, uncorrupted entity.  We, as corrupted entities, what do we do?  Not only must we study God's Word, we must seek the voice of His Spirit for guidance ALL THE WHILE realizing that Satan's got a little guidance for us as well.  Having said this, let me say that I see where you are coming from.  I believe you could probably say likewise to me.  So, who is right and who is wrong?  Maybe both the one way somewhat, maybe both the other way, but not entirely.  Interesting isn't it.  The discussions/debates will continue till Jesus comes.

The above is exactly why correction is coming. Don't you feel the need to be adhering to the voice of the Spirit in all things? This isn't a choice between which lake to fish. It's a fundamental problem when various conclusions are drawn from the words of immutable universal truth. Too many think to interpret is wise when listening is wiser. 

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the 5th Seal, I believe where the water meets the wheel is that you are seeing these martyrs as being martyrs of Daniel's 70th Week, and I am seeing them as being martyrs of the era of the past 2000 years.  If I am understanding you correctly, you are making a hard connection of this prophetic puzzle piece with the pieces having to do with Daniel's 70th Week martyrs based upon the "as they were" (Rev. 6:11) and their manner of martyrdom being that of being "beheaded" (Rev. 20:4).

The first snag I see with this, is the manner of martyrdom spoken of in the more immediate context of the 4th Seal.  With the opening of that seal, it reads that the manner is "with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:8).  Here we are shown different manners in which martyrdom will be effected, not just the manner of being beheaded.

Not that it manners so much here, but I grew up hearing this, that "It is the cause, not the death, that makes the martyr."  Now, perhaps the common denominator of beheading connects the martyrs of the 5th Seal and the Daniel's 70th Week martyrs, as you seem to be saying.  But, what of the varying means given in the preceding 4th Seal?

It's a guess to conclude the 4th seal is directly associated with the 5th. It could be but the language doesn't support such a conclusion. Maintaining consistency and veracity we can conclude neither association nor separation. It's just as likely the 4th seal is independent calamity generally affecting either regionally contained or seeming random pockets of disturbance over a wide area equal to 25% of the earth.

Nothing in the 4th seal suggests is 1/4 of people, but specifies land mass. So then it's over a landmass equal to 1/4 of total land mass where people are killed by sword, beast and famine and pestilence. Nothing suggests martyrdom here or a connection to the 5th seal.

Now that's not to say there is no possibility of a connection. If there is a connection it has to come from some where else as it can't be proven here unless we gap fill.

 

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

 

Another snag, that I really struggle with, is your believing that the 5th Seal martyrs are Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in the first place.  Whereas the first snag represents a conflict with the immediate context (that of the preceding 4th Seal), I guess you could say that the other snag is a conflict with the context of the Bible, borne out by the 6th Seal.  What do I mean?  If I have understood you correctly, we are in agreement that the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.  You just go on to join this seal with the 7th Trumpet and the end of Daniel's 70th Week.  Further, you are understanding the first five seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week.  Question:  If the 5th Seal martyrs are Daniel's 70th Week martyrs, why for their question, "How long...?"  Let me elaborate.

Diaste, if it is as you say, and we (you and I) end up being here during Daniel's 70th Week, we are going to be doing the math, don't you think?  I'm gonna promise you, if a world leader arises and confirms a 7 year covenant with Israel and dictates that we have to get a mark in our right hand or forehead, I am going to realize that I have been mistaken.  And next (or, pretty close to next), I am going to seek you out.  And next, I am going to seriously and humbly acknowledge to you that I was wrong.  And next, I am gonna ask you how things are shaping up by your math.  Now, if we end up being in the number of those martyred before the end of Daniel's 70th Week, so be it---I ain't gonna be taking no mark.  And I don't believe you will either.  But, something else we won't be doing---if we are in the number of those shown with the opening of the 5th Seal---is this:  We won't be asking, "How long?"  We will know that before we give our heads.

I see what you are saying here. It's an argument I have heard before that doesn't bear weight. This argument is based on assuming the 70th week is all the wrath of God and that post trib equates to after, or at the end, of the last week. Sure, in that case it's easy math. In this way pretrib argues that since we cannot know 'the day and the hour' post trib cannot be true and pretrib interpretation reigns supreme concerning the rapture.

But this isn't what Jesus says in Matt 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21. Jesus tells us great tribulation begins after the A of D. Why pretrib must then equate the whole of Daniel's 70th week with GT I have no idea. It's an unbecoming assumption as Daniel says the A of D occurs in the midst of the week. This means Jesus said GT only begins after the A of D in the middle of the week not at the beginning. The 'tribulation period' does not exist except in pretrib dogma.

The proper understanding is that of 'great tribulation' which commences in the middle of the week and this is never equated with the whole of the 70th week anywhere in scripture. Daniel confirms this from 11:36 to 12:1. Daniel 11:36 is a parallel to 2 Thess 2:4. Daniel 12:1 says this time only comes after 11:36 and Paul speaks to the same person and behavior in 2 Thess 2:4. It's not the entire week.

Then Jesus tells us, "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

The days of GT are cut short and do not continue to the end of the week. This is quite simple. What are those days cut short from? The whole of the week isn't cut short. We see GT only begins after the A of D, the midpoint, then those day are cut short of the end of the week. We don't know how short or how long. We do know GT is stopped short of the bitter end. No math will predict when this cutting short occurs.

 

 

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

The question that just came to your mind for me was this:  Then, why are the 5th Seal martyrs asking, "How long?"  Because, these are martyrs of the time before Jesus comes for the rapture, before (pre) Daniel's 70th Week, before the time when all the math can be done, at a time like the present time, when, "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only"

That's a hope and prayer. Nothing but wishing leads to the before you suggest.

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

(Matt. 24:36).  Interestingly, in Mark's account of Jesus' discourse, we find that Jesus also said, "neither the Son" (13:32).  I seem to always struggle, trying to find a good stopping place.  For now, I must say, I believe the case has changed in respect to the Son.  I would suggest that it changed when God gave the Lamb the charge of the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Based partly upon what is said in Revelation 5, I believe it may have changed when... 

7  ...He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne.

 8  And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:  for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:  and we shall reign on the earth.

The Son, the Lamb of God, now has charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  And, when the 6th Seal is opened, which is the time of the rapture, IT WILL BE HIS CALL.  Well...He is God!!! 

All of the above is in direct contradiction to Jesus words. 

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g 

but only the Father."

Listening is more virtuous than desiring to make oneself wise.

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

 

By the way, those that are singing the "new song" in verse 9 above, those are all the saved of all time from the time of the beginning up until the time of this ceremony in Heaven...from Adam through the martyred apostles.  When John was told, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1), that was just his invitation to be a part of the ceremony, during which he was also shown things "which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), from his perspective of time, I might add.

NO. John going to heaven is not the equivalent of the rapture.

On 5/12/2021 at 12:56 PM, not an echo said:

I just have to say it:  I have continued to like the way the pieces of this prophetic puzzle fall into place for my interpretations far better than what I have observed to be the case with the other popular interpretations.

Oh, by the way, Jesus may determine to open the 6th Seal at any time.  When He does, as Paul writes in I Thessalonians 4:

 16 ...the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

No one knows the time but the Father, in Jesus own words. Not the Son, only the Father. Seems you don't hear what Jesus says.

 

[not an echo]

On 5/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/4/2021 at 10:21 PM, not an echo said:

Sometimes when I feel that I may have over-simplified, I find that I have not.  If you are really, really serious with your first two questions, it would seem that the context in which something is written does not have a standout effect on your understanding. 

It does have great affect. What is the context is the big question.

Hello Diaste (and all),

Well, I'm going to do the best I can with the time I have remaining this week.  And, the way it goes for me, that might change with less than a moment's notice, if you know what I mean. 

Concerning your above reply Diaste, I'm thankful we are in agreement.

On 5/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 

I used the pattern of "John writes what happened" throughout my post, consistently with each of the seven seals, each of the seven trumpets, and each of the seven vials, to show the simplicity of the systematic structure in which The Revelation was given.  Said another way:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

I agree. It's not the fact, it's the when. Jesus said in Rev 1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand."

An easy and quick examination of those two statements in the Koine Greek show the correct understanding; 'things which must shortly come to pass' is 'occur quickly in the sphere' and 'for the time is at hand' refers to the giving of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His servants and not, 'the time is at hand for the prophecy to begin'.

So the time came for Jesus to reveal these things in a prophecy and that when the moment arrives for this to begin it will all happen very quickly.

This is correct as the Greek will show if you look into it.

It seems almost like you are saying that the time was "at hand" for it to be revealed to them what they were at that very time going to be holding in their hand---The Revelation.  That would seem to me to be an odd take on things.  Or, are you believing that it is being conveyed that the time had come for Jesus to reveal to them things that were not going to begin to happen to anyone for at least some 2000 years?  As you understand things, would you have any suggestions, based on The Revelation, concerning what perhaps that we should be keeping an eye out for now?  Should we actually be looking for a rider on a white horse with a bow?  I mean, we don't need to concern ourselves about false Christ's and false prophets, for we've been seeing that for some 2000 years.  Should we be looking for a rider on a red horse with a great sword?  I mean, we don't need to concern ourselves about wars and rumors of wars, for we've been seeing that for some 2000 years.  I'm disinclined to continue, over lack of time and your seeming disdain for what you label rhetoric.  But, I hope you are hearing me.

Concerning, "and that when the moment arrives for this to begin it will all happen very quickly",  are you thinking that this reflects what everyone's reassurance will be that will be going through Daniel's 70th Week?  I would suggest that when the Day of the Lord begins and the later commencement of Daniel's 70th Week, the world will be wishing that it was over "very quickly" indeed, a lot quicker than it is gonna be.  Seems to me that yours is an odd take on the Koine Greek and what would be reassuring for anyone during such a time.  I like the translator's take on the Koine Greek much better and understanding the account in its simplicity.  But, I'm one of them common folk.

On 5/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

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Now Diaste, I'm going to bet that you weren't being really, really serious, but were being a little bit facetious, so, I'm going to stop there.  Really, I'm needing to get me a shower and hit the sack after while, if you know what I mean.  You do make me wonder sometimes.  And sometimes, I can hear you when you are snickering, all the way out there in Wyoming : )

No way. I don't snicker at this, ever. If I am going to poke fun, you'll know.

On 5/5/2021 at 5:48 AM, Diaste said:

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Concerning your third and fourth sentences ("And isn't this interpretation..." and "Really...2000 years..."), where do you find it concerning The Revelation that "Daniel limits this to either 7 years or 3.5?"  We agree that Daniel's 70th Week is limited to 7 years, or two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, where does Daniel say that in The Revelation this begins with the opening of the 1st Seal?  He don't.  Rather, let me suggest that John records for us when Daniel's 70th Week will begin---At Revelation 11:1, right after the world's stage is fully prepared for it, right after we see the "little book" of Daniel "open" (Rev. 10 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

Jesus told us to look to Daniel for understanding about the A of D. So what Daniel records about that in Ch. 9, 11 and 12 is all important to the knowledge of this time. Daniel records a 7 year period where the A of D occurs at the midpoint. In Matt 24 then there is only 3.5 years left after the A of D. More than likely the previous words from the disciples questions to the mention of the A of D by Jesus is also 3.5 years.

In any case this all has to happen in the sight of a single generation as Jesus said. Since that generation was not the one listening to Jesus in person it has to be another one, but still one generation and not 30 generations across two millennia

For me, it has become an increasingly marvelous testimony to the Divinity of Christ's words that the Olivet Discourse holds great relevance to every generation of believers since the time Christ spoke the words and especially great relevance for that generation that will indeed see "all these things" of which He spoke.  And, of that generation, I believe we both agree, we may be a part.  Consider how this can play out, according to my interpretations:

From a real time perspective, if we (you and I), are raptured today, we are a part of the generation of which we are a part, whatever part of our generation is raptured, or whatever part of our generation remains.  Focusing upon those who will remain, there will be the 144,000 that are sealed, then, those who will ultimately end up saved (those who don't league with or succumb to the Antichrist), and then, there will be all the rest.  Said another way, if we (you and I), are raptured today, all that remain upon the earth will yet be a part of our generation.  Thinking now of the elect of our generation that remain (the 144,000 and all the mark rejecters), they will have seen the same things we have.  They will have seen the things Jesus spoke of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:5-14/first four seals), just like we have.  PLUS, they will experience and/or observe what happens at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (Matt. 24:29-51/Rev. 6:12-7:17), PLUS they will see the rise of the Antichrist and witness the time when the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will take place.  This means, that a friend of ours (perhaps a Jew that is presently lost) would see "all these things" and face the very real possibility of martyrdom in his or her near future, or, be part of the remnant that will survive in hiding until Christ's Second Advent.  On the other hand, we would have seen a lot of the things, just not "all these things" like those of our generation that remains.

Now, I know that from the perspective of your understanding, you may feel compelled to pick this apart.  But my experience has been that I will feel equally compelled to clarify it further for you, showing its harmony with Scripture.  While it may not harmonize with your present understanding, it is harmony with Scripture that must be sought.  I'm believing that you realize this.  I'm really just saying this so that you will realize that I realize it as well.  For me, it has been a whole lot easier understanding what I do---especially when I came to see it---than it has been to find the time to explain it all so that others can see it as well.  I hope my understanding has been helpful to some.  Taking the time to put it forth has been a spiritually rewarding exercise for me.

Edited March 15, 2023 by not an echo