Making a Habit of Arguing/Debating Scripture

[Guest kingdombrat]

Something else, is how the linkage between Science and Word of God has suddenly become meshed.   And due to not being completely specific, how before light and how time defining a day becomes breeding grounds for Evolution.   These Forums are really good at allowing us to see how so many view the Bible.   

[Alive]

19 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Indeed, and the same applies to us here and now. Our experience with the Lord is revealed in how we communicate with others, whether they are brethren or our unbelieving neighbor. This is where "be slow to speak and quick to listen" (James 1:19) serves us well. 

That crucible of experience is where the Lord refines us, tries us, and sends us forth. Thus the same Lord Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever reveals Himself to each of us in different ways. Jude writes of this salvation we share in common and this is our unity in Christ Jesus, but what proves to be a challenge to grasp is the many-membered Body of which we are a part. 

It pleases the Lord that each of us are parts of the whole. 

I believe it is fruitful to touch upon our own testimony from time to time so the brethren might come to understand some of that crucible where the Spirit of God refines us like silver is refined. I've been called a "Calvinist" on a number of occasions by virtue of how the Lord came and revealed Himself to me, declaring my election and claiming me as His own. Truth be told, I didn't pay attention to John Calvin nor his teachings, all of which were a mystery until that moniker spurred me to research the man. 

And so I will say, "John Calvin didn't come to pluck me from this world and keep me in his hand." I didn't know who John Calvin was until years after the Lord saved me from this world and myself. Is this a vindication of Calvinism? Absolutely not, though there are some who will likely view it that way. I understand if this is the case... it's out of my hands. I can only speak and write from the crucible of testimony and experience. 

The same applies to us all. It's good to keep this in mind.  

I own  Calvin's complete commentary of the scriptures and it is extensive and he was without a doubt a brilliant man. Much of my early schooling was contrary to Calvin, although I did not realize it at the time. Full disclosure--I don't consider myself as any -ist or -ism.

:-)

Anyway--my point is the following. Some many years ago when I learned the history of what went on in Geneva during Calvin's sway, I determined that I wanted nothing to do with the man or what he wrote. I was disgusted with the history and in knee jerk reaction wrote him off.

I have since mellowed from that position and do consult him on occasion, but I can't think offhand of when doing so it related to soteriology.

On that subject, I am settled.

:-)

The point sharpened a bit is along the lines of what Josh likes to point out and I agree with energy. We should all learn from those that have come before us. None of us are existing in a vacuum as much as some would like to think.

That is not how the Body of Christ is to behave. We all as members have and do benefit 'spiritually' without knowing it, by every thing the Holy Spirit has done since the beginning. We are hid with Christ in God and are a part of it all and all is a part of us. There is no 'island' or 'vacuum' In Christ.

The Nature of the Body is Oneness in spite of many members. Paul taught this and that revelation is most helpful and changes perspectives. It will change how we view and interact with other family members.

:-)

[Marathoner]

6 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

Something else, is how the linkage between Science and Word of God has suddenly become meshed.   And due to not being completely specific, how before light and how time defining a day becomes breeding grounds for Evolution.   These Forums are really good at allowing us to see how so many view the Bible.   

Through the crucible of experience, the Lord taught me what science is (and what it isn't). How did He accomplish this? By providing me with an education in the sciences, of course. This is how it unfolded.

Not long after my 40th birthday when I lived in the state of California, I decided to take a battery of collegiate placement exams on a whim. These were administered free of charge so I saw no harm in it. Why not? It would be an amusing experience to say the least, seeing as how the last grade I completed in school was the 8th. I expected to flunk the tests in epic fashion. 

Only I didn't. When the pleasant woman behind the counter placed the test results into my hand, my jaw hit the floor (figuratively, of course). "What? Surely a mistake has been made!," I exclaimed to the administrative assistant. She laughed and replied this was impossible. I was the only applicant in the testing center so the results were indisputably mine. 

"An academic counselor will be with you shortly," she assured me. "Grab a seat, it shouldn't be long!"

To make a long story short, science is the pursuit of man. Science is man's examination of the Lord's creation and is not in any way connected to faith and salvation, which are gifts of the Almighty to us. I refrain from conflating science with faith and vice versa because it is neither worthwhile nor fruitful... unless one approaches science with the understanding that it represents our efforts to examine and understand those things which we see, touch, taste, measure, and otherwise quantify. 

Again, written from the crucible of experience.  

[Guest kingdombrat]

4 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Through the crucible of experience, the Lord taught me what science is (and what it isn't). How did He accomplish this? By providing me with an education in the sciences, of course. This is how it unfolded.

Not long after my 40th birthday when I lived in the state of California, I decided to take a battery of collegiate placement exams on a whim. These were administered free of charge so I saw no harm in it. Why not? It would be an amusing experience to say the least, seeing as how the last grade I completed in school was the 8th. I expected to flunk the tests in epic fashion. 

Only I didn't. When the pleasant woman behind the counter placed the test results into my hand, my jaw hit the floor (figuratively, of course). "What? Surely a mistake has been made!," I exclaimed to the administrative assistant. She laughed and replied this was impossible. I was the only applicant in the testing center so the results were indisputably mine. 

"An academic counselor will be with you shortly," she assured me. "Grab a seat, it shouldn't be long!"

To make a long story short, science is the pursuit of man. Science is man's examination of the Lord's creation and is not in any way connected to faith and salvation, which are gifts of the Almighty to us. I refrain from conflating science with faith and vice versa because it is neither worthwhile nor fruitful... unless one approaches science with the understanding that it represents our efforts to examine and understand those things which we see, touch, taste, measure, and otherwise quantify. 

Again, written from the crucible of experience.  

I completely buy everything 100% because I know and feel your honesty.   But now that you have been awakened by God, and have spent enough time trying to figure where Science can fit in along side of Scripture, do you see the gaps in information as being possibilities where Science is explaining?

 

If Evolution ever was true, it was not due to a Big Bang and Laws of Physics plus energy and singularity.   It would be true in microbes.   And would be for several purposes microbes provide/offer life itself.  And then when God scooped up the dust full of billions of microbes, He formed a clay model, and then breathed life into it.   There would be no Species becoming Species because the same building block of microbes is in everything God Created.   This is where I am at on it using the knowledge we've obtained from Research through Science.

 

Do you have Scripture you feel proves your Scientific Platform?

[Marathoner]

40 minutes ago, Alive said:

I own  Calvin's complete commentary of the scriptures and it is extensive and he was without a doubt a brilliant man. Much of my early schooling was contrary to Calvin, although I did not realize it at the time. Full disclosure--I don't consider myself as any -ist or -ism.

:-)

Anyway--my point is the following. Some many years ago when I learned the history of what went on in Geneva during Calvin's sway, I determined that I wanted nothing to do with the man or what he wrote. I was disgusted with the history and in knee jerk reaction wrote him off.

I have since mellowed from that position and do consult him on occasion, but I can't think offhand of when doing so it related to soteriology.

On that subject, I am settled.

:-)

The point sharpened a bit is along the lines of what Josh likes to point out and I agree with energy. We should all learn from those that have come before us. None of us are existing in a vacuum as much as some would like to think.

That is not how the Body of Christ is to behave. We all as members have and do benefit 'spiritually' without knowing it, by every thing the Holy Spirit has done since the beginning. We are hid with Christ in God and are a part of it all and all is a part of us. There is no 'island' or 'vacuum' In Christ.

The Nature of the Body is Oneness in spite of many members. Paul taught this and that revelation is most helpful and changes perspectives. It will change how we view and interact with other family members.

:-)

Well said, brother. I'm not dismissing John Calvin by any means, though I must confess that I shared the same reaction when I delved into the history of the time and place where Calvin lived. What? Oy vey! 

I haven't devoted as much effort as you have into studying his commentaries so I'm only familiar with generalities as it were; I will say that John Calvin grasped the sovereign power and authority of the Lord God Almighty in a manner which is pleasing and true. This is how the Lord revealed Himself to me and there's no denying the truth. It's the heart of my testimony. 

Christ chose me, I didn't chose Him. The Lord delivered me with a mighty hand in such a way that I lost the ability to speak for quite some time.

You might recall a forum discussion some time ago where "the guy who spent years in the desert having experiences with God" came up, a descriptive which fits me to a tee. Yep, I'm that guy, though the desert might be more properly thought of as the wilderness in both the literal and spiritual sense. Some of those years did in fact unfold in the wilderness, and some transpired on the streets and under the lights of the city. 

Sure, there was a time when my attitude was "Theology? Schmeology! Bah, forget about it," and all of that. This makes sense when my brother understands where I came from in this world, which is to say the Spirit of the Lord plucked me from it in an out of the blue fashion. All things in their time, and all matters in their season. That's not descriptive of where I am now.  

 

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

But there is a viable argument which the Apostle John taught to his own disciples Polycarp and Papias about the true original Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not the Greek.   And in the Hebrew there are no such Commands from Christ made.   Even Jerome, who claims to have both held the Matthew Hebrew Gospel and translated it into Latin in his other writings, explains when the Hebrew Matthew was translated into Greek, errors and probable additions were made.   

 

I just know what history claims.   But it is much of why if water Baptism was an actual requirement, Christ would have made sure the thief was baptized.

The argument would be moot if one just read the NT ... 
{snip}

BAPTISM 

As administered by John. Matt 3:5-12; John 3:23; Acts 13:24; 19:4. 

Sanctioned in Christ’s submission to it. Matt 3:13-15; Luke 3:21.

Adopted by Christ. John 3:22; 4:1-2.

Appointed an ordinance of the Christian Church. Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16. 

To be administered in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19. 

Water, the outward and visible sign in. Acts 8:36; Acts 10:47. 

Regeneration, the inward and spiritual grace of. John 3:3,5-6; Rom 6:3,4,11. 

Remission of sins, signified by. Acts 2:38; 22:16. 

Unity of the Church effected by. 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27-28. 

Confession of sin necessary to. Matt 3:6. 

Repentance necessary to. Acts 2:38. 

Faith necessary to. Acts 8:37; 18:8.

There is only one. Eph 4:5. 

Administered to 

Individuals. Acts 8:38; 9:18. 

Households. Acts 16:15; 1 Cor 1:16. 

An emblem of the influence of the Holy Spirit. Matt 3:11; Titus 3:5. 

Typified. 1 Cor 10:2; 1 Peter 3:20-21. 

 
(from The New Thematic Concordance, Copyright © Geoffrey Stonier 2004. All rights reserved.)
{snip}

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, kingdombrat said:

I completely buy everything 100% because I know and feel your honesty.   But now that you have been awakened by God, and have spent enough time trying to figure where Science can fit in along side of Scripture, do you see the gaps in information as being possibilities where Science is explaining?

 

If Evolution ever was true, it was not due to a Big Bang and Laws of Physics plus energy and singularity.   It would be true in microbes.   And would be for several purposes microbes provide/offer life itself.  And then when God scooped up the dust full of billions of microbes, He formed a clay model, and then breathed life into it.   There would be no Species becoming Species because the same building block of microbes is in everything God Created.   This is where I am at on it using the knowledge we've obtained from Research through Science.

 

Do you have Scripture you feel proves your Scientific Platform?

My friend, this isn't a topic where such a matter is appropriate to discuss at length. The topic pertains to arguing/debating scripture, not themes of science and faith. A cursory treatment is fine within the limits of courtesy; if my brief summation of science as the pursuit of man examining the Lord's creation isn't sufficient for you, then what can I say?

That's out of my hands. I lack a "Scientific Platform" and I'm not interested in discussing anything in this vein, thanks.  

[leah777]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

It is far easier to perceive what a person is communicating when we understand how and why that person got to where they are and why--what influenced them. These things, in human terms, inevitably and most certainly affect what and how we communicate. The writers of the scriptures were not automatons. They were human men and they were informed by many varied sources---ie. read material and culture.

It is very helpful to have knowledge of the world they lived in.

A good example is Jesus Himself. He was a Jew and He grew up in and lived as a Jew speaking to other Jews. That Jewery is evident in everything He said. He was in a culture speaking to folks in that culture. It is impossible to understand Jesus without understanding where He was and who He was speaking to.

Do you see what I mean?

 

absolutely agree. But they are not Holy Spirit inspired Gods Word. They are supplemental information.

[Alive]

10 minutes ago, leah777 said:

absolutely agree. But they are not Holy Spirit inspired Gods Word. They are supplemental information.

I understand just what you are saying and what I am about to say doesn't contradict that.

I think we can safely say that there have been and are a great many words that sons of God speak that are Holy Spirit inspired, but aren't canon.

:-)

[leah777]

19 minutes ago, Alive said:

I understand just what you are saying and what I am about to say doesn't contradict that.

I think we can safely say that there have been and are a great many words that sons of God speak that are Holy Spirit inspired, but aren't canon.

:-)

Yes. I understand the distinction. Thank you.