---

[johnthebaptist]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

No, the Lord does not want us to many things that we do. We are sinners. We will not be perfect until we get to heaven. 

Or we could repent of our sin right now. Why wait?

[David1701]

19 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Like I said before smoking is not a bad habit it is an addiction. Pray for them and let God handle it. 

Bad habits can quickly degenerate into addictions, if not repented of, when the bad habits involve addictive substances.

The assembly has elders and pastors who can, and should, speak with people who are sinning openly (e.g. drug abuse).  If sin is not dealt with, then it can spread like gangrene.

Yes, of course we should pray for people who are abusing drugs or alcohol, but not only pray for them.

[PeterR]

Is repentance a change of mind or a turning from sin?

https://www.gotquestions.org/repentance-change-mind-turn-sin.html

Repentance in the Bible involves a complete and irreversible change of mind, heart, and actions. Repentance recognizes that our sin is offensive to God. To repent means to make an about-face, heart-directed turn away from self to God, from the past to a future ruled by God’s commands, acknowledging that the Lord reigns supreme over one’s existence

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-repentance.html

Edited May 8, 2021 by PeterR

[Marathoner]

On 5/7/2021 at 10:45 AM, David1701 said:

No, I am NOT saying that smoking will stop you from entering the kingdom of God!

Having one besetting sin is not the same thing as a lifestyle of sin.  A lifestyle of sin shows that a person has not been born again, but one area of spiritual blindness or struggle against a persistent sin (especially since smoking is one of the most addictive things there is and it's very hard for people to give up) does not mean that a person is unsaved.

Any sin is a work of the flesh.  There are only two sources for a Christian's deeds: the Holy Spirit or our flesh; so, anything that is not led by the Holy Spirit is, necessarily, a work of the flesh.

Thanks for the clarification, brother. Your words are true and I'm grateful that you shared them. There is that sin which does not lead to death (I'm not referring to this flesh and blood which perishes regardless of what we do or don't do), and I understand the sin which does not lead to death as error. 

Some of us were addicted to this or that (tobacco is but one addiction) before salvation came to our house, and it's true that our Lord chose us even when we were slaves to this flesh and thus dead in our sins (we are saved by His grace through faith). Not all addictions are equal: some addictions cause us to become intoxicated in this flesh and this intoxication is a grave matter; a "drunkard" represents any who become habitually intoxicated and not just by alcohol, of course. 

That's my understanding. 

By virtue of the Lord sending me to a desperate part of this city where He positioned me to work as His servant in a homeless shelter, I witness the agonies and battles of those who became addicted to intoxicating substances on a daily basis. Not just those under my care in this shelter but also those who live on these streets, and their plight tears at my heart and soul. I hear their cries, brother... these intoxicating substances became a demon upon their back and I never cease praying for their sake. 

Hence I cry out to Christ, "How long must they suffer, Lord?"

More than one resident of this shelter fled so they might fulfill the demands of that demon upon their back and I weep for them all. Therefore for those who stumble and partake, and afterward come to us in confession of their error there is mercy and a helping hand. I will never rebuke the addict for the suffering of their affliction. I advocate for their sake even when management determines to cast them out. 

This pleases the Lord who gave me Life, but still I cry out and ask Him, "How long, Lord?"

As for those addictions which don't induce intoxication but are nevertheless harmful (all addictions are harmful by their nature), the Lord encourages us to never give up seeking deliverance. We ought to be mastered by nothing. I appreciate your words because you emphasize the excellence of the Lord. 

[Marathoner]

The original audience of the scriptures must be kept in mind with references to drunkards. Strong drink was the primary intoxicating substance familiar to the Hebrew writers of scripture, and it wasn't until the coming of Christ and the calling of the Gentiles that other intoxicating substances (psychedelics used in rituals, for example) became known to the faithful. 

The ways of the pagan were forbidden to those who served as an example for us. 

This defines my understanding of "drunkard" but there are nuances which must be examined and appreciated. There are some of the faithful who were or are addicted to intoxicating substances and there is indeed mercy for the brethren. It's not our place to judge them --- tend to the log in our own eye first, yes? --- but to pray for their sake and be a help, not an accuser. The Lord convicts and He speaks for Himself.

We must present ourselves as living sacrifices for the sake of the brethren and our neighbor so that when we do judge, mercy and love are above all considerations. Vengeance belongs to the Lord and so we don't engage in vengeful nor accusatory judgment at any time: "judge not, lest ye be judged." 

And also, the measure by which we judge shall be returned to us in full measure. Therefore if we judge according to mercy and love we fulfill the commandment of our Lord to "love your neighbor as yourself." I am not dismissing smoking tobacco by any means, but let us be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.    

[David1701]

21 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Thanks for the clarification, brother. Your words are true and I'm grateful that you shared them. There is that sin which does not lead to death (I'm not referring to this flesh and blood which perishes regardless of what we do or don't do), and I understand the sin which does not lead to death as error. 

Some of us were addicted to this or that (tobacco is but one addiction) before salvation came to our house, and it's true that our Lord chose us even when we were slaves to this flesh and thus dead in our sins (we are saved by His grace through faith). Not all addictions are equal: some addictions cause us to become intoxicated in this flesh and this intoxication is a grave matter; a "drunkard" represents any who become habitually intoxicated and not just by alcohol, of course. 

That's my understanding. 

By virtue of the Lord sending me to a desperate part of this city where He positioned me to work as His servant in a homeless shelter, I witness the agonies and battles of those who became addicted to intoxicating substances on a daily basis. Not just those under my care in this shelter but also those who live on these streets, and their plight tears at my heart and soul. I hear their cries, brother... these intoxicating substances became a demon upon their back and I never cease praying for their sake. 

Hence I cry out to Christ, "How long must they suffer, Lord?"

More than one resident of this shelter fled so they might fulfill the demands of that demon upon their back and I weep for them all. Therefore for those who stumble and partake, and afterward come to us in confession of their error there is mercy and a helping hand. I will never rebuke the addict for the suffering of their affliction. I advocate for their sake even when management determines to cast them out. 

This pleases the Lord who gave me Life, but still I cry out and ask Him, "How long, Lord?"

As for those addictions which don't induce intoxication but are nevertheless harmful (all addictions are harmful by their nature), the Lord encourages us to never give up seeking deliverance. We ought to be mastered by nothing. I appreciate your words because you emphasize the excellence of the Lord. 

I've been discussing the case regarding Christians, which is different from unbelievers.  Christians always have the way out of sin (the Lord and his grace), even if we don't always take it, but unbelievers do not.

If a Christian wants to be delivered from an addiction, because he does not want to grieve the Lord or cause others to stumble, rather than for merely selfish reasons, then compassion, practical help and praying with and for the person are the response.  If he wants to continue in the sin, or stubbornly refuses even to admit that it's a sin, then open rebuke and secret prayer for him are the response.

[Marathoner]

Just now, David1701 said:

I've been discussing the case regarding Christians, which is different from unbelievers.  Christians always have the way out of sin (the Lord and his grace), even if we don't always take it, but unbelievers do not.

If a Christian wants to be delivered from an addiction, because he does not want to grieve the Lord or cause others to stumble, rather than for merely selfish reasons, then compassion, practical help and praying with and for the person are the response.  If he wants to continue in the sin, or stubbornly refuses even to admit that it's a sin, then open rebuke and secret prayer for him are the response.

Amen, and I agree with everything you wrote. Well said!

[Marathoner]

I've been involved with a number of brothers in this shelter who are caught in the throes of the deadliest of addictions: addiction to alcohol... addiction to heroin... addiction to methamphetamine... and often these addictions overlap in the afflicted. 

I have witnessed the work of these addictions, in the ruins of their lives and their faith. What do I say to them?

The Lord brought you here for a reason. I will always be your advocate just as Jesus Christ is our Advocate. I've never been addicted to intoxicating substances but this does not make me better or superior to you. On the contrary! The Lord has opened my eyes to your affliction since I came here and so I have learned things which man could never reveal. 

I've been afflicted by despair and dark times so I understand what desperation means. Yes, dark times when it seemed all was lost. Despair, because I believed I had failed the Lord and so I abdicated this life when His Spirit came to me at the end of very long road. Drugs didn't afflict me but does this matter?

Death by injection or death by suicide... both bear the same fruit which is death. I declare the words of the Lord spoken when I was close to death to the afflicted, so they'll know that His words weren't just for me but for us all. This is the conviction of His Spirit: I will stand with them, weep with them, and give to them as the Lord gives to me. 

To my sorrow many have fled.   

[Starise]

I was ready to go get some ice cream. You guys ruined it for me. I'm going to feel guilty after the first bite.

All kidding aside I think there have been some great comments here. The difference between those who quit and those who don't is this:

The person who quits sees the very real long term danger in doing it. For the Christian we see it not only through a physical lens but a spiritual lens. Anything that God instructed us to do that we don't do is rebellion. Rebellion always stands between us and Him. If a person isn't convinced they want to do something they won't do it. Outside coercion won't affect a change. Only an inner conviction.

[PeterR]

I wonder what Spurgeon thought about that. Apparently he smoked a cigar before each of his fiery sermons.