Is Jesus God?

[Your closest friendnt]

30 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

The issue is this  "At the beginning God sent the Word to do the Creation." Your words.  God did not send the Word, He is the word"

Whether you meant to or not your choice of words intimated that Jesus, The Word is God, IS NOT God  And that IS wrong, desperately wrong.

I am trying to understand you .

The issue is with John verse one the way it was worded.

In the Greek it is easier understood. 

* the verse one is in three parts.

The first one it wants to sow that the word was at the beginning (and in verse three it says that all things were made by him which refers to the creation of all things.

The Word was before all things were created and he must be because he is the one who created all things. 

By now we have the Word as the creator of all things including Adam.

So the Word is parlayed as God the Creator of all things. 

The last sentence of verse one it says that the Word was God. 

But we have established that in verse three , the Word as God the Creator. 

Which sets aside a suggestion that the Word who Created the Angels first before man, did not send an Angel to create the world and Man but he did it himself and he is the one who breathed into him and gave him from his Life and not an Angel.

And he made him in his image. And man was made in the image of God the Word, the Creator and not in the image of an Angel. 

Looking in John one in the second sentence it says that the Word was towards God or with God. And then it says that the Word was also God.

We have two Gods, and the word who is also God was with God it came from God the Father. God also himself.

That's why he could say : "Let's make man in our own Image" that requires two of the same image and we have two God the Father and the Word who came from the God, And the scripture emphasizes that he is also God and not an Angel.

to follow is that God did not Create anything else, because the Word Created all things. 

and this is fall into place that when the Word created all things was in obedience to God that he was executing the will of God, doing what God had asked him to do. 

if not he would have been in his own will without the permission of the Father. 

he would be in disobedience. 

 But he was not, because we see God the Father was in agreement with him when he said let's us make man in our own image.

John 1

King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

⁶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

⁷ The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

⁸ He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

⁹ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[BeyondET]

There looks to be three choices where angels came from in scripture or that places Alpha not Alpha but Alpha plus.

the deep or the waters or the surfaces

 

2Now the earth was formless and void,

and darkness was over the surface of the deep.

And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Edited May 9, 2021 by BeyondET

[Logostician]

Jesus is God.

Col 2:8-10

Beware that any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of this world, and not after Christ.  FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.

 

[Riverwalker]

14 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am trying to understand you .

The issue is with John verse one the way it was worded.

In the Greek it is easier understood. 

* the verse one is in three parts.

The first one it wants to sow that the word was at the beginning (and in verse three it says that all things were made by him which refers to the creation of all things.

The Word was before all things were created and he must be because he is the one who created all things. 

By now we have the Word as the creator of all things including Adam.

So the Word is parlayed as God the Creator of all things. 

The last sentence of verse one it says that the Word was God. 

But we have established that in verse three , the Word as God the Creator. 

Which sets aside a suggestion that the Word who Created the Angels first before man, did not send an Angel to create the world and Man but he did it himself and he is the one who breathed into him and gave him from his Life and not an Angel.

And he made him in his image. And man was made in the image of God the Word, the Creator and not in the image of an Angel. 

Looking in John one in the second sentence it says that the Word was towards God or with God. And then it says that the Word was also God.

We have two Gods, and the word who is also God was with God it came from God the Father. God also himself.

That's why he could say : "Let's make man in our own Image" that requires two of the same image and we have two God the Father and the Word who came from the God, And the scripture emphasizes that he is also God and not an Angel.

to follow is that God did not Create anything else, because the Word Created all things. 

and this is fall into place that when the Word created all things was in obedience to God that he was executing the will of God, doing what God had asked him to do. 

if not he would have been in his own will without the permission of the Father. 

he would be in disobedience. 

 But he was not, because we see God the Father was in agreement with him when he said let's us make man in our own image.

John 1

King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

⁶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

⁷ The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

⁸ He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

⁹ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

Its n0t hard,  You said Giod sent the Word. I am telling you God IS the word

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Its n0t hard,  You said Giod sent the Word. I am telling you God IS the word

I posted John 1:1,2,3 in support of my presentation. 

It does not support what you say, that God created man and the world,.

Jesus "The Word" who died on the Cross is the same one who made the man and the world. 

It had been decided before the foundation of the World that God the Creator "the Word" who made man, had also to be "the Lamb that would be slain. 

Not God the Father. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Part 1: Why are you asking us? You say you have no need of teachers, so why ask us? What does the Word say? 

 

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 

 

Seems pretty plain to me: the word was God. 

Part 2: Now I also know you believe you have no need of other books, not just no need of teachers but I'm going to give you relevant information any way. John is quoting from Philo, the Jewish philosopher and something Philo wrote about Alexander the Great as Alexander being the mediator between God and man. In doing so John is also implicitly repudiating Hellenism's influence on Judaism. Hellenism had crept into Judaism during the inter-testamental period and the Sadducees were Hellenists and even more so were the secularist running Israel at the time. Their Hellenism made collaboration with the Greek-influenced Romans easier. 

None of that is in the Bible but it is, nonetheless, the facts of history and philosophy leading up to John's gospel. 

Is it necessary to know all that stuff to understand the Bible? No. No, but it helps and adds to an understanding of things not stated. 

 

Part 3: The attributes of God logically dictate He be a God of inherently already-existing relationship. For example, scripture plainly states "God is love." It is an ontological statement. It is NOT merely that God is loving, but that God is by inherent nature love. According to the Bible, love is necessarily a relational condition. That means in order to be love, God had to have relationship prior to creating creation; prior to creating relationship. Otherwise, He might have intellectual knowledge of relationship but He has no experiential knowledge of relationship until after He creates it. 

That god, the one lacking experiential knowledge, is not omniscient. That god is not God, and he most certainly is not the God of the Bible Who is love. 

The same truths apply to God being just. Justice is, by nature, by definition, necessarily a relational condition. God cannot logically be love or just if He does not inherently exist already-in-relationship. 

 

Part 4: The language of "father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" is New Testament language. It is language that specifically pertains to the salvation provided for sinful man. In other words, it is soteriological language; language intended for that era and the conditions existing at that time relevant to God's purpose at that time. Jesus was foreknown before the creation of the world as the perfect blemish-free sacrifice but revealed in those last days. It was then that the Word of God that is God became flesh. It was then that he laid aside his claim of equality and took on the appearance of a human in the form of a bond-servant. That is all that happened back then. Jesus did not stop being the Word that was with God and was God.  

 

I'm going to return to wife and family but when I have time I will return to provide the Philo quote, a plethora of scripture, and further exposition because whether or not you ever learn from others and other sources this is good, valid, and veracious information from which others can and likely will benefit. Got a question for you, though. 

 

Quote

Does this op mean you are not a subscriber to the doctrine of the Trinity? 

In the bible we come across scriptures that say;

That we have no need for anyone to teach us, and that God will teach everyone. 

Then in another part it says that God has given us teachers, pastors, evangelist, prophets ministers for the building up and the edification of the church. 

This is not said for those who were under the old Covenant of Sina, but for the time of the New Covenant. 

We as believers in Jesus Christ we are in the New Covenant and those things are said to us, and for us.

This is possible to be taught by God in the New Covenant because we can be taught by God through the Holy Spirit, the Paracletous. Which is working in our lives and in our heart.

God does not forbid believers to seek him in this way, the fact that it is written in such a profound language it is as it seeks to e encourage believers to seek him in this mode of teaching. 

God desires that everyone would desired him in this way. 

God is giving the choice to his people to decide for them selves, but they cannot tell him how to do it, 

This is up to Jesus who knows the needs and the understanding of each one of us. 

Jesus does not forbid those who seek him in that way to have fellowship with other believers and attent church meetings or seek a more formal connection with a church. But he promised to be on the guard and guide us and teach us no matter what.

The Lord knows how to prepare our hearts or the field of our knowledge or our own self to be able to receive guidance from him, and that it takes time and to prepare our heart and mind to recieved something from him, in cases where we have been taught something in another way that he would have teach it himself, and he needs to reprogram our understanding and establish us into something else from him. He knows that he will meet a lot of resistance because people defend what they have and do not easily give up what they have cherish for so long. 

So the teaching from the Holy Spirit is undoing a lot of things and teaching new ones or correcting our understanding. 

This way he can help people to move forwards from stalemates churches to other ones who are more active in ministry. 

The Holy Spirit can teach also unbelievers who do not have the spirit how to seek him and believe in him and this way he can take them away from their  on christian religion and unto himself. 

So we should let everyone to as they wish and Jesus knows what to do.

If someone is led by the Lord to say something to build another believer let no one interfere and forbid or discourage someone else to do it. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

John 1:1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

John 1:1-5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

2 He was in the beginning with God. 

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 

**** verse is telling us that in the beginning was the Word and the word was with God.

(In the Greek the meaning is towards God.)

That far we have the "Word" and "God". Two "beings",    a) the Word and b) God.

We do not have yet anything else about the "Word ", so far if we do not know if the Word is an Angel or not and we should be wondering if we do not read the next sentence that fills in the blanc and put to rest the thought whether or not the Word is an Angel by informing us that

"the Word was God."

Did not say God is the Word,

(If it said "God is the Word then we have only one being and not two) 

Then we can not say the Word was with God.

To say the Word was with God we need two beings the Word and God.

As the Word was with God.

As in verse 2, He was with God in the beginning. 

He is referring to the Word, john is giving us more info about the "Word" he address the Word as he (masculine).

And john is telling us "in the beginning " was God and the Word, no one else (no Angels). 

John in verse 3 he is telling us that the Word and not God created all things that needed to be created. 

So we can say that the Creator of all things is the Word. 

And in verse 4, John is telling us that the "Word created Man ".

So we may say the Word who was also God created all things and Man.

The Word who created all things and Man became flesh.

He was the "EMANUEL conceived and born after nine months in Bethlehem from his mother Mary. 

John is telling us that God the Creator in Genesis is the Word, the God of Abraham and Moses. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

John 1:1-4 KJV

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

*** John in his Gospel in chapter one, he is talking about God, the Word, and about John the Baptist. 

In ch1, v3 he said that the Word created everything, in other words John he is telling us who is the Creator of all. 

John let us understand that the Word existed before any Angels because he is the one who Created the Angels.  

Before the Creation John is telling us that the Word was with God. 

Not the other way around, that God was with the Word, which still can be seen as correct because the two of them were the only ones at the beginning before any Angels. 

What John is attempting to emphasize by telling that "the Word was with God." 

The key word in this statement "the Word was with God" is the with. 

The greek word is "pros", which is referring to LOYALTY.  

john by saying the Word was with God, loyal to God is saying that the Word was in obedience to God, was not hostile and in rebellion to God, God asks something and he obeys, or he complies, which includes that he could disobeyed if he wanted to, but he decides to obey to do what God is asking him to do. The word is not doing anything on his own, everything he does is within the will of God. 

The Word to Create everything it was not a autonomous act, but it was the desire and within the will of God that the Word Created everything. 

Everything in between before he created man.

In Genesis the Word which is now referred as God, and that is important because by that time we had the Angels and the rebellion in Heaven, so it is of paramount importance to know that God the Word did the Creation as in Genesis and it was him who also created man.

It is important to empathize because by that time they were other powers in existence so there is clearly and not doubts as to who Created Adam. 

John in verse 4 he is telling us that the Word was God the Creator in Genesis because he goes on to say that the word Created Adam and gave him of his Life and of his Light. 

That what the WORD gave Adam in the Garden he gave him of his Life, and of his Light.

Note, that he did not give him of his Spirit by of his Life.

John is telling us that Adam had the Life of his Creator but not His Spirit.

That Adam did not have the guidance of the Spirit from within. And God was not always with him present in the Garden.

That he visited him in the Garden. That includes that Adam was alone at first and later he gave him Eve as his wife and his companion. 

That it is also telling us that Adam did not have God's Spirit, the Spirit of his maker within. Only he partake of his Life and not of his Spirit. 

Adam did not have the inner voice of God, the voice of God from within. God did not give him of his Spirit but only of his Life when he breath into him. He gave him the breath of Life. He did not give Adam of his prophetic Spirit. 

And Adam did not have the Paracletous. 

Or the Holy Spirit of God who was with the Word and the Word was towards God. And we have seen it in the day of Penticost. 

Or the Holy Spirit as we have seen it in the prophets who were under the Law.

Adam did not have the inner guidance in his heart. 

Adam did not have the Life giving Spirit which come by faith in Jesus Christ after his death in obedience towards God. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Who me]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:27 AM, Whyme said:

Can you copy paste the article?

link;- https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/jesus-god/

Hi, I'm a Muslim. I've one question about Jesus.

When you call someone/believe in someone as (your God), you imply something by that (i.e. there’re necessary consequences of that belief theologically).

For example, when you call Jesus (my God), that means rather it has to mean that you believe in your heart that Jesus has created you. That meaning is already in your mind & heart. It must be!

Based on that, I want to ask you when Jesus himself called the Father as (his God), what does that have to mean/imply?

If the Father has created Jesus, then that does make sense. However, Jesus was not created according to Christians, so I'm asking why Jesus addressed the father by this label (my God)? Has the Father Created Jesus? If not, why did Jesus believed in the father as his God.

Thank you.

Abdullah

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/images/site/flags/azerbaijan.png Azerbaijan

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/images/site/a2drcraig-img-1.jpg

DR. CRAIG’S RESPONSE

---

A

A former Muslim (now Christian) friend once remarked to me, “Muslim evangelism is a crash course in Christian doctrine.” Your question, Abdullah, so well illustrates that remark. You have opened the door to discussion of some very profound doctrines about God and Christ.

To begin with, you are quite right in inferring that if any human being regards someone as God, he must also regard that person as his Creator, since God is the Creator of all that exists apart from Himself. Since Christians regard Jesus as God, they also explicitly acknowledge him as the Creator (see Gospel of John 1.1-3; Colossians 1.15-17; Hebrews 1.1-3).

So what is implied when Jesus refers to his Heavenly Father as God? The answer to that question takes us into the doctrines of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ.

First, with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity, Christians have distinguished between the ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity. (I’m sorry if this appears complex, but you asked!) The ontological Trinity has to do with God as He exists in Himself wholly apart from His relations to the world. The ontological Trinity comprises three persons, whom we call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now the question is: are there relations of derivation among the persons of the ontological Trinity? Traditionally, the Christian church has affirmed that there are. Specifically, it has held that the second person of the Trinity eternally derives from the first person, much as light proceeds from the sun. That is why the first person is called the Father and the second person the Son, since the first person begets the second. Now begetting is not the same as creating. When a cat begets kittens, it brings forth offspring that share its same feline nature. By contrast, when an animal creates something (like a bird’s nest or a beaver’s dam), it produces an artifact having a different nature than its own. So the Son, sharing the same nature as the Father, is rightly said to have been begotten by the Father, not created by Him. So Jesus Christ, as a divine person, regards the first person of the Trinity as his Father, not his Creator.

Not all Christians hold to the view that there are relations of derivation within the ontological Trinity. I myself am sceptical of this view because it has no Scriptural warrant. Rather I tend to think of the denomination of the three self-standing persons of the ontological Trinity as “Father,” “Son,” and “Holy Spirit” as belonging properly to the economic Trinity. That is to say, these names are descriptive of the respective roles the three persons play in the plan of salvation. Jesus Christ, though equal in nature to the first person of the Trinity, submits to him and becomes incarnate for the sake of our salvation and so is called the Son in relation to the Father. Christ is the Son of the Father, not in his divine nature, as on the traditional view, but in his human nature in virtue of his virginal conception.

So we have two alternative ways of accounting for Jesus’ relation to God as his Father: either (i) because he is eternally begotten by the Father in his divine nature or (ii) because he was miraculously begotten through Mary’s virginal conception of Jesus in his human nature.

That would explain why Jesus thought of God as his Father. But that’s not the whole story. How can Jesus regard the Father as his God? That gets into the doctrine of the two natures of Christ. On the Christian view, Jesus had two natures, human and divine. Having two natures, he was truly human as well as truly divine. When Jesus during his earthly incarnation worships and prays to his Father as God, he does so as a human being. As a divine person, Jesus could not have been created by God, but his individual human nature, that body-soul composite that walked the hills of Galilee and was crucified in Jerusalem, was created by God. So it was entirely appropriate that Christ in his human nature worshipped and served his Heavenly Father as his God, as did other faithful Jews.

I hope this helps to clear up your question. Jesus was not created (even if he was begotten) in his divine nature. But his human nature was created by God. So in his humanity Jesus regarded his Heavenly Father as God

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Who me said:

link;- https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/jesus-god/

Hi, I'm a Muslim. I've one question about Jesus.

When you call someone/believe in someone as (your God), you imply something by that (i.e. there’re necessary consequences of that belief theologically).

For example, when you call Jesus (my God), that means rather it has to mean that you believe in your heart that Jesus has created you. That meaning is already in your mind & heart. It must be!

Based on that, I want to ask you when Jesus himself called the Father as (his God), what does that have to mean/imply?

If the Father has created Jesus, then that does make sense. However, Jesus was not created according to Christians, so I'm asking why Jesus addressed the father by this label (my God)? Has the Father Created Jesus? If not, why did Jesus believed in the father as his God.

Thank you.

Abdullah

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/images/site/flags/azerbaijan.png Azerbaijan

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/images/site/a2drcraig-img-1.jpg

DR. CRAIG’S RESPONSE

---

A

A former Muslim (now Christian) friend once remarked to me, “Muslim evangelism is a crash course in Christian doctrine.” Your question, Abdullah, so well illustrates that remark. You have opened the door to discussion of some very profound doctrines about God and Christ.

To begin with, you are quite right in inferring that if any human being regards someone as God, he must also regard that person as his Creator, since God is the Creator of all that exists apart from Himself. Since Christians regard Jesus as God, they also explicitly acknowledge him as the Creator (see Gospel of John 1.1-3; Colossians 1.15-17; Hebrews 1.1-3).

So what is implied when Jesus refers to his Heavenly Father as God? The answer to that question takes us into the doctrines of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ.

First, with respect to the doctrine of the Trinity, Christians have distinguished between the ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity. (I’m sorry if this appears complex, but you asked!) The ontological Trinity has to do with God as He exists in Himself wholly apart from His relations to the world. The ontological Trinity comprises three persons, whom we call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now the question is: are there relations of derivation among the persons of the ontological Trinity? Traditionally, the Christian church has affirmed that there are. Specifically, it has held that the second person of the Trinity eternally derives from the first person, much as light proceeds from the sun. That is why the first person is called the Father and the second person the Son, since the first person begets the second. Now begetting is not the same as creating. When a cat begets kittens, it brings forth offspring that share its same feline nature. By contrast, when an animal creates something (like a bird’s nest or a beaver’s dam), it produces an artifact having a different nature than its own. So the Son, sharing the same nature as the Father, is rightly said to have been begotten by the Father, not created by Him. So Jesus Christ, as a divine person, regards the first person of the Trinity as his Father, not his Creator.

Not all Christians hold to the view that there are relations of derivation within the ontological Trinity. I myself am sceptical of this view because it has no Scriptural warrant. Rather I tend to think of the denomination of the three self-standing persons of the ontological Trinity as “Father,” “Son,” and “Holy Spirit” as belonging properly to the economic Trinity. That is to say, these names are descriptive of the respective roles the three persons play in the plan of salvation. Jesus Christ, though equal in nature to the first person of the Trinity, submits to him and becomes incarnate for the sake of our salvation and so is called the Son in relation to the Father. Christ is the Son of the Father, not in his divine nature, as on the traditional view, but in his human nature in virtue of his virginal conception.

So we have two alternative ways of accounting for Jesus’ relation to God as his Father: either (i) because he is eternally begotten by the Father in his divine nature or (ii) because he was miraculously begotten through Mary’s virginal conception of Jesus in his human nature.

That would explain why Jesus thought of God as his Father. But that’s not the whole story. How can Jesus regard the Father as his God? That gets into the doctrine of the two natures of Christ. On the Christian view, Jesus had two natures, human and divine. Having two natures, he was truly human as well as truly divine. When Jesus during his earthly incarnation worships and prays to his Father as God, he does so as a human being. As a divine person, Jesus could not have been created by God, but his individual human nature, that body-soul composite that walked the hills of Galilee and was crucified in Jerusalem, was created by God. So it was entirely appropriate that Christ in his human nature worshipped and served his Heavenly Father as his God, as did other faithful Jews.

I hope this helps to clear up your question. Jesus was not created (even if he was begotten) in his divine nature. But his human nature was created by God. So in his humanity Jesus regarded his Heavenly Father as God

Jesus was conceived, not created. 

Adam was not conceived. 

Jesus was born after nine months from the day of his conception the gestation period for humans. 

His mother is Mary, she gave birth to him. They had to cut Mary's biblical cord at the time of his birth. 

Jesus was born, was not Created.