Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Marathoner]

32 minutes ago, Starise said:

I felt I had to play devil's advocate here. Nothing directed at you personally.

I say this because I want readers to get the full message about this movement. God has absolutely worked in small congregations of all kinds as compared to larger assemblies and I have no doubt He worked in your situation.

Everyone is free to make their own judgements on the movement which are likely  based on personal experience. I can't safely say all is well in this movement in spite of some good things happening here and there. I can't say, there's nothing to be wary of in every case. Like anything else I think we are to try the spirits to see which are of God and which are not.

I am putting the idea out there that there is POTENTIAL for the evil one to get a foothold. I guess this goes without saying it can happen anywhere. When we open the doors up to spiritual forces I think we should always be wary what those forces are. The Charismatic movement is especially prone to it IMHO.

You're playing the devil's advocate? You seek to make an example of the testimony of others to prove your point in a manner which satisfies your agenda in this topic? That's distasteful to the extreme because wouldn't it be enough to simply share your own testimony without assuming the role of an accuser of the brethren? 

I never accused you of doing this, my friend. You accused yourself in your own words above. I'm not holding it against you, but it should be pointed out that you're accusing those you've never met of all manner of things on account of your experience. How does that make you any different from the ones who mistreated you in such a way, brother? 

This is why I stress that I pay no heed to denominations, movements, and the like. Why should I, when I was every bit the sinner who was dead in his sins when my Father in heaven drew me to His Son? I was lost once... am I therefore going to judge those who are confused, or lost themselves? Never. 

I'm grieved that terrible things were done to you, @Starise. I've endured terrible things as well, but I'm not blaming anyone for that. I know better, embracing the truth that whatever befalls those who are beloved by the Lord works for their good.  

[Whyme]

Are prosperity preachers charismatic?

[Marathoner]

4 minutes ago, Whyme said:

Are prosperity preachers charismatic?

Not necessarily. Consider Norman Vincent Peale if you haven't before. His "positive thinking" isn't dissimilar from the prosperity teachers who achieved their zenith during the 1980's and 1990's. A few persist to this day but they were mostly supplanted by the "Word of Faith" movement. That struck me as strange fire when I first encountered it.  

[Whyme]

5 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Not necessarily. Consider Norman Vincent Peale if you haven't before. His "positive thinking" isn't dissimilar from the prosperity teachers who achieved their zenith during the 1980's and 1990's. A few persist to this day but they were mostly supplanted by the "Word of Faith" movement. That struck me as strange fire when I first encountered it.  

Yes the WOF movement. Just speak your problems away. 

[Slug1]

22 hours ago, Paul James said:

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"?  It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

As a child, the church our family attended was very, oh... conservative. Not even an "amen" could be heard during any worship (the pastor's wife singing while playing an organ), or during the sermon.

Yeah, I was the kid who once said AMEN loud enough to be heard by all in the church and the looks I got... note to self, NEVER express praise. In that church, I learned you NEVER are to express praise to God. This is how I was raised in a church until the age of 8. This was one side of extreme. Family finally moved away and I never stepped back in a church for 10 years or so.

At 19 I joined the Army, bounced around the world for the next 21 years. I and my wife attended many churches of various denominations and I could testify for days.

Then came a day (about 2 years after I retired from military serve), when God lead  my wife and I to a Pentecostal denomination church and I "met" charismatics for the first time.

I will say this first and then end this post as I do not want to be lengthy.

Based on my experience, there are discipled brethren in ALL denominations and believe me, I've been to so many churches of various denominations over the years. Also, there are many UNdiscipled brethren in all denominations. But when it comes to my experience with that Pentecostal church, serving in leadership eventually in that church, all I can say is I find myself seeing 1-2 Corinthians is a whole new light. The chaos, due to a lack of discipleship we find in Corinth back when Paul had to "FIX" them... is how I would relate to undiscipled charismatics.

So, as Paul discerned back then in Corinth, they were "saints" and brethren. Today, I find the same in the one specific church I attended and over the 12 years attending and 10 years in leadership, visiting various other churches for conferences and such in that denomination, so MANY are just out of control as the Corinthians were. No order and thus = chaos.

About... wait, I'll end now. Will post more later or respond to any responses.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Am I defending those who accuse and condemn? 

I'm quoting myself for the benefit of those who read this topic. There is a brand, a cult if you will, which peddles all manner of strange fire and embraces it as a movement of God's Spirit. 

"Slain in the Spirit?" What?

Barking like dogs? So-called "holy" laughter? Paltry parlor tricks attributed to the Spirit of God? Unlike many I don't ascribe such things to the agency of unclean spirits. Not at all. These are born of man's delusion and thus represent error on the part of the afflicted. Man is capable of embracing delusion on his own without help, my friends. 

There are some so desperate for God that they're willing to go to all manner of places for an experience. The Lord becomes a sensual and thus tactile experience; if they are not gripped by emotion then something's not right. Beware the wolves in sheep's clothing who peddle such experiences to the masses, for they have already received their reward: filthy lucre stolen from the desperate who regardless of their resident delusion or error, cry out for Jesus Christ.

They were never taught that God does as He pleases and so He answers to no man. They don't know that there's a season for everything under the sun, and there is an appointed time for every matter under heaven. I've met many and they confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and because of this truth, they aren't afflicted with demon spirits. Not all, so I'm not disputing that there aren't some who are.  I believe @Justin Adams' testimony. 

No, here's my experience with the enemy: children of the devil, evil men who murder, steal, and otherwise do unspeakable things to others. Affiliates of MS-13, degenerates who preyed upon the weak and downtrodden. I will not repeat their sins so others might share this burden with me... some things are better left unspoken until the end comes... and it was the will of God that I stood against them with no weapon in my hands. 

The Spirit of the Lord was with me and so it wasn't me who faced their guns, their threats, and their promises to shred my body with bullets and kill the one whom the Lord sent me to defend with my life. No, they faced the Lord Himself so little wonder they fled before me. They weren't terrified of me, they were terrified of the Lord of Hosts!

Were they possessed by unclean spirits? Yes, every one of them was a pawn of spiritual darkness and so they were roosts of foul spirits. I have not affiliated myself with churches let alone denominations, so my experience has unfolded in the wild places and the streets where drugs and murder claim the lives of far too many to count.  

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Marathoner
clarity

[Marathoner]

39 minutes ago, Slug1 said:

As a child, the church our family attended was very, oh... conservative. Not even an "amen" could be heard during any worship (the pastor's wife singing while playing an organ), or during the sermon.

Yeah, I was the kid who once said AMEN loud enough to be heard by all in the church and the looks I got... note to self, NEVER express praise. In that church, I learned you NEVER are to express praise to God. This is how I was raised in a church until the age of 8. This was one side of extreme. Family finally moved away and I never stepped back in a church for 10 years or so.

At 19 I joined the Army, bounced around the world for the next 21 years. I and my wife attended many churches of various denominations and I could testify for days.

Then came a day (about 2 years after I retired from military serve), when God lead  my wife and I to a Pentecostal denomination church and I "met" charismatics for the first time.

I will say this first and then end this post as I do not want to be lengthy.

Based on my experience, there are discipled brethren in ALL denominations and believe me, I've been to so many churches of various denominations over the years. Also, there are many UNdiscipled brethren in all denominations. But when it comes to my experience with that Pentecostal church, serving in leadership eventually in that church, all I can say is I find myself seeing 1-2 Corinthians is a whole new light. The chaos, due to a lack of discipleship we find in Corinth back when Paul had to "FIX" them... is how I would relate to undiscipled charismatics.

So, as Paul discerned back then in Corinth, they were "saints" and brethren. Today, I find the same in the one specific church I attended and over the 12 years attending and 10 years in leadership, visiting various other churches for conferences and such in that denomination, so MANY are just out of control as the Corinthians were. No order and thus = chaos.

About... wait, I'll end now. Will post more later or respond to any responses.

I haven't had the opportunity to welcome you to Worthy yet, my friend. So welcome!

This was my experience as well over the years, though I never remained among any particular assembly for long. I commend you for doing that, brother. 

Ah, but then that wasn't the Lord's will for me. Christ always intended me to walk where I am now. Places such as this are where He's been sending me since that day when He baptized me in His Spirit. 

Those children of the devil whom I stood against in the wilderness? The drugs they trafficked and manufactured in places inaccessible to vehicles and helicopters are sold on the streets where the Lord has me now. Instead of affiliates of MS-13 I find myself surrounded by other gangs who are just as depraved and equally brutal. Yes, children of the devil in every sense of the word. 

I have witnessed their comings and goings... I know who their couriers and mules are. I know their schemes and what they perpetrate in the darkness. I know the one whom they serve, and the bodies of the slain and the horrific drugs they create (mixtures of five or even seven different drugs) is their calling card, if you will. The children of the devil are merely servants of those powers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. 

I suppose you could say that the mission field is where I belong, @Slug1.

[Willa]

Any group or church may become heretical when they depart from the Bible as a basis for doctrine.  

Several denominations also base doctrine on experiences, which can lead them to la la land.  The Methodist Church does this as well as some Charismatics, such as those related to the Vineyard Church.  Other Charismatics are very Bible based and of sound doctrine.  

Other churches base doctrine on tradition, such as the Catholic, the Episcopal, and some liberal Lutheran Churches.  This can be just as bad.  

 

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, Slug1 said:

As a child, the church our family attended was very, oh... conservative. Not even an "amen" could be heard during any worship (the pastor's wife singing while playing an organ), or during the sermon.

Yeah, I was the kid who once said AMEN loud enough to be heard by all in the church and the looks I got... note to self, NEVER express praise. In that church, I learned you NEVER are to express praise to God. This is how I was raised in a church until the age of 8. This was one side of extreme. Family finally moved away and I never stepped back in a church for 10 years or so.

At 19 I joined the Army, bounced around the world for the next 21 years. I and my wife attended many churches of various denominations and I could testify for days.

Then came a day (about 2 years after I retired from military serve), when God lead  my wife and I to a Pentecostal denomination church and I "met" charismatics for the first time.

I will say this first and then end this post as I do not want to be lengthy.

Based on my experience, there are discipled brethren in ALL denominations and believe me, I've been to so many churches of various denominations over the years. Also, there are many UNdiscipled brethren in all denominations. But when it comes to my experience with that Pentecostal church, serving in leadership eventually in that church, all I can say is I find myself seeing 1-2 Corinthians is a whole new light. The chaos, due to a lack of discipleship we find in Corinth back when Paul had to "FIX" them... is how I would relate to undiscipled charismatics.

So, as Paul discerned back then in Corinth, they were "saints" and brethren. Today, I find the same in the one specific church I attended and over the 12 years attending and 10 years in leadership, visiting various other churches for conferences and such in that denomination, so MANY are just out of control as the Corinthians were. No order and thus = chaos.

About... wait, I'll end now. Will post more later or respond to any responses.

Although I never had the negative experience in churches as a child as you did. I attended a Presbyterian Sunday School and enjoyed it.  I kept going until I had to leave because I got too old for it (13).  They didn't have a youth group.  I went to one family service in the church and found it incredibly boring.

At the age of 19 I was introduced to a Pentecostal church nd attended a number of such churches for around 12 years.  I too experienced the good, bad and ugly.  I saw the theatrical performances, as well as the solid Bible believing Christians among them.  What saved me from total disillusionment was being discipled by a strict friend who introduced me to English 17th Century Puritan literature, and a very strict provincial Pentecostal pastor whose background was Methodist Holiness. I served under him from 1970 to 1973, and all these years later, his ministry and teaching has stood the test of time while all the teaching of my other Charismatic mentors have faded away.

In my last Charismatic church I became so wearied with the false shepherding doctrine, gossiping, church politics and nepotism where opportunities for leadership was given to the socially accepted and family members of the "senior pastor", I decided to leave that church and the movement as a whole.  I joined the local Anglican church and met a group of Anglican charismatics, and was pleasantly surprised that they were a totally different kettle of fish.  They accepted me straight away as a core member of their group and encouraged my guitar music.  They set a new refreshing standard of joyful, loving, self-controlled believers who just enjoyed loving and worshiping the Lord.  No theatrics or judgmentalism with them.

When I moved cities, I joined a non-Charismatic Baptist church and served as a deacon for three years, then moved again to a non-Charismatic Baptist church in another city where I started my first school teaching position.  When I arrived in Auckland to a new teaching job I joined a non-Charismatic Presbyterian church where I served as an elder and treasurer for 23 years.

In all those churches I made no secret of my Pentecostal background, and they accepted me without question or discrimination. As an elder of the Presbyterian church I was given opportunities to take services and to preach, and I was free to preach what I felt the Holy Spirit gave me.  I preached the Gospel of Christ and emphasis faith and trust in the finished work of Christ according to my Puritan theology.

it is interesting that one of the reasons why I was passed over in my last Charismatic church was that I made no secret that my theology was 17th Century Calvinist Puritan.   I think there was a strong Arminian "saved today, lost tomorrow" mentality in that church and they didn't like my insistence on total assurance of salvation for the believer involving no condemnation, and that all guilt and punishment for sin was dealt with on the Cross.  This went right against the very legalistic influences from the prominent group who came into the Charismatic from the Open and Exclusive Brethren churches.  My grace-based approach to Christian faith went right against their performance-based Pharisaical religious mentality.

It was a relief to me to join the Anglican church and mixed with Reformed grace-based people in that church.

The interesting thing for me was that when I left the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement I didn't stop praying in tongues.  I then realised that my gift was not church-based, but securely founded in the New Testament which is not corrupted or affected by any church I might attend.

Since then, I have been involved in a Prophetic ministry, and met some fine Baptist charismatics.  Totally different from the Pentecostal system which disillusioned me.  These were non-judgmental, grace-based, self-controlled in their approach to the Gospel, forgiveness of sin, use of the Spiritual gifts, and praise and worship.

The last AOG church I attended was around three years ago, and there was so much spooky stuff in the service that when the service was over, I decided never to go back to a Pentecostal church.  I was so glad to get back to my normal Presbyterian church where there were real people who simply loved the Lord without trying to get emotional or sensory experiences.  Actually the Lord warned me the night before I went to that service.  He told me, "If people are seeking sensory or emotional experiences, the devil is always there to give them one."  When I was in that AOG service, I was so glad that I was forewarned because I was able to resist attempts from the pastor to get me to jerk, shake, or fall over.

So that is my experience for what it is worth. All the gifts are exercised by straight faith and trust in God's Word, and not motivated by ecstatic emotional states.  When I pray in tongues I speak the language to God in a cool calm deliberate manner, trusting that the Lord understands what I am saying in the Spirit.

It is always good to be like "Mr Spock" when it comes to exercising the gifts, because then if there is joy and laughter resulting, it is real and not forced.

[Paul James]

What caused me to see through the theatrical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, babbling in public tongues, and falling down, was when I decided to observe the pastor and church elders to see if they joined in.  I found that although the pastor encouraged the manifestations, he never manifested any of it himself, nor did the church elders.   This showed me that there was manipulation going on, a type of hypnotic suggestion that triggered people to do the extreme manifestations.  

A good example from a pastor with a sense of humour and a realistic view of spurious manifestations was when he told the congregation that after a five second countdown a wave of glory would sweep through the church.  He did the countdown and as soon as he said, "Zero!"  pandemonium broke out all through the congregation with all sorts of manifestation and emotional outbursts.  When it all died down, the pastor said, "Did you feel that?"  Many cried out, "Yes we sure did!"  The pastor then said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!"   What he did was to show how hypnotic suggestion works with a crowd of people.

This is what happens when Benny Hinn waves his hands at a group and they all fall down.  A hypnotist does the same thing to a group when he says, "Sleep!" and waves his hands at the group and they all fall asleep.

Hillsong music does the same.  The particular nature of it causes people to go into trances, increasing in intensity and at the climax manifestations happen.  I saw a video where the pastor wanted to calm the people down to go to the next part of the meeting, but he couldn't get control of the people for around 15 minutes, because the people had been hypnotised by the music to such a state that it took all that time for people to come back down to earth.

But if you observe the pastor and leadership team in these meetings, you will see that they remain cool as cucumbers.  They are the ones manipulating the people while they themselves don't allow themselves to enter into the hypnotic suggestion and manifestations.

Not all Charismatic churches are like that, but if you find yourself in a meeting where these things are happening, watch the leadership team and how they manipulate the people into the sensory and emotional trance states.   You will also find that the true Gospel of Christ is never preached in those meetings.  It will always be God will bless you and make you prosperous, healthy, and that Jesus will be your friend and will give you what you claim for.