The Kingdom is in out midst? Luke 17:20-21

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, but I find it more amazing that some do not see contradictions where they clearly do exist. Ever seeing but not perceiving, ever hearing but not understanding. Very odd given the secrets of the kingdom have been given to the regenerate. 

 The Pharisees did not have the KoG within them so Luke 17:21's entos cannot be interpreted to mean the KoG was within them. It was in their midst, standing right in front of them, having come upon then but was not within them. 

 

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We need ears to hear that Jesus wasn't only speaking to the Pharisees, but that He was speaking to all believers too (maybe even to His disciples who were right there with Him) and conveying two similar ideas at the same time.  I don't know how familiar everyone here is with the ways and workings of the Holy Spirit, but the Lord can use a human vessel and be speaking to more than one person at the same time and conveying more than one idea at the same time, using the same words.  Kind of like human language with wings.  Anyhow, that is how the Lord taught me, a believer, about the spiritual nature of the kingdom, being within us, using that scripture, and it contradicts nothing, it is the truth. 

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I am not opposing you. I did not say you said the passage was about Christians, did I?  That is the straw man.

 

It would be a straw man, if I'd posted that you had said that I'd said that the passage was about Christians.  I didn't.

Look, I don't want to have to wade through masses of verbiage, just to find out if you have, somewhere, addressed what I posted.  I'm well aware that the KoG is a very large subject, but I'm focusing on the verses in the OP and, in particular, the correct translation/meaning of the end of Luke 17:21.

Luke 17:20,21 (ACV)

20 And questioned by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God comes, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation,
  21 nor will they say, Lo, here! or, Lo, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is inside of you.

The Pharisees want to know when the kingdom of God comes; but, they misunderstand what it is.  They think that it's the restoration of national Israel, including deliverance from their Roman oppressors.

The Lord addresses the timing, by addressing the nature of the kingdom of God - it is not outward, observable and yet to happen, but inward, and here in the present.  It is inside people, without specifying which people (the "you" is a general usage, not meaning "you Pharisees").  In modern English, an equivalent way of saying this would be, "... the kingdom of God is inside one."; but, while technically correct, this is horrible, stilted English, of a kind that is only spoken by upper class English people or pedants; so, the normal usage would be "...the kingdom of God is inside you.".

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Neither do I. I even said the KoG was within us many times in my posts. That does not change the fact 1) Luke 17:21 should not be proof-texted and 2) neither should it be made to say the KoG is within the Pharisees or within post-Calvary believers. Neither is what that verse is about. The KoG is within us, but that's not what Luke 17:21 is saying. 

It is saying that the kingdom of God is not outward and observable, but inside people (and, therefore, invisible).  It is also saying that the KoG was present then.  It has not gone away anywhere, so it is present now, as it was then, inside people.

This verse does indeed teach that the kingdom of God is within post-Calvary believers, just as it was in pre-Calvary believers.  It does not have to state that explicitly, since we know that God's spiritual and moral rulership is, and always has been, within his believing people.  This does not mean that his kingdom is limited only to being inside believers, since it is also in heaven, for example.

Edited May 13, 2021 by David1701

[Marathoner]

Posted in error. Oops!  

Edited May 14, 2021 by Marathoner

[Heleadethme]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Let's see what the text of scripture says. 

Luke 17:20-21 NAS
"Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;  nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.'"

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:20-21 ESV
"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, 'The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,  nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.'”

Luke 17:20-21 BLB 
"And having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, he answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God does not come with careful observation, nor will they say, ‘Behold here,’ or ‘There.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.'"

It's not even clear that the leper or the disciples are in attendance at the moment he's speaking to the Pharisees. It is a reasonable inference the disciples were present but it is, in fact, an inference because the text does not specify or otherwise stipulate their presence. What it does stipulate, quite plainly and explicitly, is that Jesus was answering them (GK.: "apekrithē autois"), the Pharisees. 

The Lord never contradicts His own written word. We need ears to hear he was speaking to the Pharisees AND he was doing so in answer to their inquiry about when the kingdom would come. Only after we have heard correctly can we properly discern what else the scriptures teaches and its relevance 20 centuries later. 

 

Are we trying to limit and confine God to our set of language or grammatical rules?  Jesus was often addressing particular people but we know by faith that His words are also for us today.  It's not by might not by power but by His Spirit, saith the Lord....we are to walk by faith not by sight.  

[David1701]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, the straw man is the claim I'm posting in opposition. I am not. You did in fact post,

"Most of your opposition....." is in your head, David. It is a straw man. Three or four posts ago you posted a pile of agreement with me: "Understood....," "That's right....," "Yes...," "Also yes....," and some of your comments are repeats of things I have previously stated!!!!! The comment, "Most of your opposition....." is the straw man. You are (mis-)representing my posts as opposition when they are not (at least not in their majority). 

Rothflmbo!!!!! I did not say you did say any such thing. Look it up. Never claimed you ever said any such thing. 

 

Check 

 

 

Your 

 

 

bias. 

Right, but false accusations and misrepresentations will be posted without evidence. How about you search my posts to find out if I posted what you say I posted you posting?  

Never happened. Check your bias. 

 

Quote

 

Rothflmbo!!!!! I did not say you did say any such thing. Look it up. Never claimed you ever said any such thing. 

Check 

Your 

bias. 

 

You obviously didn't read what I posted properly.  Here it is again and that is all I will post for now.

"It would be a straw man, if I'd posted that you had said that I'd said that the passage was about Christians.  I didn't."

[Heleadethme]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

I am not. I cannot speak for you, but I am not limiting or confining God at all. I am, instead, pointing to the rich diversity of Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom by highlighting the fact Jesus is not saying the same single, solitary one thing many want Luke 17:20-21 to say. This sort of thing happens often in scripture. God often uses similar or identical terms in very diverse ways. The words "death," and "life" would be two very notable examples. To be physically dead is not the same as being dead in transgression, A person can be physically alive but dead in sin. A person can also be dead in Christ, which would make him/her dead to sin, having been previously dead in sin but still physically not dead. To be dead in Christ is to be alive in Christ, whether physically alive or dead. 

The same is true of the phrase, "the kingdom of God". Many diverse things are said about the KoG. Jesus is not saying, "The kingdom of God is within you Pharisees" in Luke 17:21 and he is not saying "The kingdom of God is within others," either. Both statements are true. Both statements are true but that is not what Jesus is saying in verse 21. Jesus is saying something different, something more, something not confines to those two sentences. 

So no, I am not limiting or confining God to any set of language or grammatical rules. 

Others here are doing so, though. 

 

A fitting analogy of what Jesus is saying that would be applicable to you and me would be what I last stated to David: 

 

When you or I stand in front of non-believers the kingdom is not within them but it is in their midst and they are in its midst.

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the kingdom is within anyone else. Jesus stood before the Pharisees, the kingdom having already come and demonstrably observable by the fact he was healing and casting out demons. The kingdom was not within them but it was in their midst and they were in its midst...... and that was true whether or not the kingdom existed in anyone else. 

Mine is the least confining view posted so far. 

Don't know why anyone would think otherwise given I have openly affirmed everything everyone has said about the kingdom so far except one specific point: verse 21 cannot be made to say "within you" because that is not what it is teaching. Done confine yourselves nor God to that single interpretation because there are things stated in the two verses 1) precluding such an interpretation and Jesus is saying something much different, much more diverse, something much less limiting on God, Christ, and ourselves. 

And I have explained how and why using just those verses, just those verses in the immediate context, the larger local context within Matthew and the more global contexts of whole scripture. 

Whole bunch of agreement. One point of disagreement. Not limiting God in any way. Shouldn't be any disagreement given the facts of scripture. 

All I can say is that His word is alive and active and written/spoken in such a perfect way as to allow for this, to our amazement and His glory....He is so great.  We just can't confine Him to a set of rules like exegesis, as if we're capable of discerning spiritual things without Him working His work in us...the working of His power.  Some may think Jesus was speaking only to the Pharisees back in the first century, but I know He was speaking also to me through that same scripture that time only about 15 years ago or so, the same way I know He also speaks to other believers.  When the Lord gives a revelation, it's like a kiss from heaven, and I think also the mind needs to be at rest to be able to receive.  It's not by man's might, not by man's power, but by His Spirit, says the Lord.